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Blood Nightmaster posted:As somebody who's never seen Breaking Bad I have to ask, why was this opinion so ubiquitous? I don't mind spoilers if it helps contextualize things. I hear it was a great show so I'll probably watch it someday regardless A bunch of angry misogynistic men who are bad at watching tv shows didn't like there being a woman character who was reluctant to blindly go along with everything the violent psychopath male anti-hero wanted. Add to that it being a popular show and said group of men being especially loud, and you're probably getting the picture. It's incredibly gross but it'll make sense when you start watching, she's presented as an obstacle to be overcome. Well, some of it will make sense. The actress receiving endless hate will probably never make sense.
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May 6, 2021 08:11
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Yeah, Skyler in the first episode is presented as basically dominating in the relationship with Walt, seemingly self-interested and a much stronger personality that easily over-rides the meek and downtrodden Walt but this is basically the surface level of a long-term marriage the viewer is largely seeing from Walt's perspective. So when Walt seemingly "takes control" of his life and Skyler is there questioning him or pushing him to do things he doesn't want to do, a lot of people kind of took it as a continuation of that dynamic instead of "holy poo poo she is concerned about her husband and trying to help him and he's being a giant rear end in a top hat about it". Like, people thought she should shut and be grateful to him for doing the things... that he wasn't telling her he was doing and that she wasn't aware were happening. Then as the show progressed, he becomes a worse and worse person and Skyler's objections continue to be largely completely sensible and reasonable but a ton of people were pissed at her because she was "getting in the way" of Walt doing cool crimes and being "Heisenberg", all of which missed the point that he was doing terrible things, his kingpin persona was a pathetic projection by a man with an out-of-control ego, he was putting his family in danger while claiming he was doing it for their benefit etc. Throwing that behind spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen the show. It was a very, very, very good show that was perhaps a little over-reliant on blowing the audience away every single episode, but the acting is superb, the cinematography is great, there are plenty of  moments and of course it lead into the creation of one of the best shows on television in the last half decade: Better Call Saul  pokeyman posted:A bunch of angry misogynistic men who are bad at watching tv shows didn't like there being a woman character who was reluctant to blindly go along with everything the violent psychopath male anti-hero wanted. Pretty much sums it up.
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May 6, 2021 08:17
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The Klowner posted:God forbid the Google/Facebook/Amazon/Twitter ad-mind figures out mad men is one of your Interests and tries to recommend or advertise a bunch of spoilery poo poo I can only imagine the t-shirts marketed to extremely specific demographics for this. "Yes, I'm a MAD MEN fan with ANGER ISSUES and a wife who IDOLIZES DON DRAPER..." Devorum fucked around with this message at 08:34 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 08:32
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pokeyman posted:she's presented as an obstacle to be overcome Yeah, it's this. Breaking Bad starts as an empowerment fantasy about a brilliant man hobbled by the unjust weight of his lovely working class lifestyle. He's this put-upon victim, humiliated by capitalism, by his disabled son, and by his distant and inattentive wife. But the cancer diagnosis becomes a moment of existential clarity where he finally sees the futility in playing society's rules and decides instead to seize the wealth and power he knew he always deserved. It's pure-strain toxic masculinity, a kind of Fight Club or American Beauty narrative where being a white guy with ennui is the worst thing in the world and becoming a violent, selfish rear end in a top hat is actually somehow heroic. Of course, the ACTUAL point of the show is the opposite. Walt's toxic need to feel powerful demolishes everything good in his life, destroying his reputation and alienating his family, ultimately leaving him to die alone, unloved, and with nothing for his trouble. But a lot of the show's fans took its early attempts to explain Walt's choices as an endorsement of them. So, when Skyler understandably calls her husband out for acting weird and becoming an rear end in a top hat, viewers who wanted Walt to keep doing cool crimes identified Skyler as the villain and let their misogyny off-leash. Edit: I left this open for a few minutes and am thoroughly beaten. But yeah: Breaking Bad is a good show and it's not Vince Gilligan's fault that many of its fans are awful people. Xealot fucked around with this message at 08:51 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 08:48
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One of the first things you learn about Walt in Breaking Bad is -he has a Ph.d in chemistry from Caltech, started a cutting edge biotech company with his friend from college, and - 20 years later is working as a teacher in a low playing district and having to work at a car wash to help make ends meet. You don't get from where he started to where he ends up in the show premiere unless you have seriously, seriously hosed up to the point of being unemployable. He should be teaching at a community college for $90/hr as a side job, not washing cars for minimum wage. The question how much the circumstances are his fault, versus him being "robbed" of what he's owed become very clear, very fast.
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May 6, 2021 09:17
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There's also a fantastic little flashback moment around the midpoint of the series where you find out what happened to Walt AFTER he left that cutting edge job, and.... it was to go to work at ANOTHER high-profile Chemistry workplace, Los Alamos Labs or something along those lines and you can see in everything about his demeanor and his brash decision making that his problems are entirely of his own making, to the point where he either keeps getting thrown out or throwing himself out of progressively slightly less prestigious workplaces till he ends up teaching High School Chemistry to bored students and feeling utterly beaten down by life, and somehow blaming his old girlfriend and his old business partner for HIM walking out on THEM. Even then, he still hasn't quite grasped that he's the architect of his own demise, and as the show progresses you quickly see that his beaten down and subdued personality even then was barely covering an intellectual contempt he held for others, including his wife and especially his brother-in-law. Edit: Anyway I have a lot on this week but I will try to have the Season 3 retrospective done by Friday so I can get into season 4 as quickly as possible!
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May 6, 2021 10:20
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Season 4 rules.
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May 6, 2021 10:50
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Since we've got at least one more Mad Men-free day, might as well roll with the derail and say that I remember when Walt managed to get Skylar on board with his schemes for a while, via a series of lies and half-truths that heavily contributed to his final downfall and the destruction of his family, the chuds didn't see that as Walt crossing a moral Rubicon in drawing her into his web of deceit and skullduggery but were like "FINALLY, Skylar stopped being such a nagging bitch and is getting behind her man! I knew Walt would bring her around eventually." Just the biggest most  point-missing you could imagine.
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May 6, 2021 11:32
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KellHound posted:A friend of mine wrote an article that was him watching the premier of mad men season 6 without having seen any of what came before. Kinda, what is it like to come into late mad men cold. Then after he wrote his review, I watched the first episode with him. The contrast between the premier and season 6 episode one is what made him watch the rest of the series. He wasn't really interested in it before then, but the question of how the hell you get from season 1 to season 6 was something they wanted to see. Got a link to that article that seems interesting.
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May 6, 2021 13:24
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Having finished a BB rewatch last week (directly after finishing BCS) I’m leaning toward a friend’s opinion: that BCS actively loves all its characters, and BB actively hates its characters. I watched BB very carefully paying attention to Skylar in particular: she’s written very unsympathetically for most of the series. She fares best in the middle section, where she’s aware but not complicit in Walters bullshit.
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May 6, 2021 13:41
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I agree with people's takes re Breaking Bad, but I have to say, the show sometimes feels like it wasn't on the same page. Like at times it couldn't decide on whether Walt was a fool or the coolest dude alive, and even in the last season you had ostensibly cool moments of Walt just dominating relative innocents (like with the laser sights) and then at last with what was in his trunk. The show would have been better if it was a little more clear eyed and brutal towards its protagonist, like Mad men.
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May 6, 2021 13:46
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Vince Gilligan definitely knows how to write an engaging story, but it’s hard to say how much more than that his stories do. I thought the first 3 seasons of BB had meat on their bones, but then it was the Watch the Bad Man Do Bad Things show. The most interesting conflict in those first seasons, at least to me, was Walt’s mixed feelings about the path he was on. When he kills the dude who has the plate shard early in season 1, the morality of that is actually pretty complicated, and you can see him struggling with it. When he lets Jesse’s girlfriend die, there is some great acting there where we can see that she died before he even made up his mind as to whether he wanted to let her die. But after he dispatched Jesse to murder Gale, I don’t think there are any more moral quandaries for him. He’s just evil. That’s a reasonable place for the story to end up, but there are almost THIRTY episodes after that. Boo.
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May 6, 2021 15:10
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Breaking Bad was really good but I agree that the message was a little inconsistent. I think the earlier criticism about Mad Men, that Weiner wants to have his philosophical cake and eat it too, is much more applicable to Breaking Bad. Haven't watched it in a while but I remember feeling like the show had difficulty distinguishing between Walt's pov and an "objective" pov, so that the moments with Walt that are presented as unironically cool and fun as hell can be shown non-subjectively to be lame or evil I'm also incredibly wary of the quality of sequels so I haven't seen Better Call Saul. I also haven't seen El Camino. People said they were good but I couldn't tell at the time if that was just residual good vibes from BB.
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May 6, 2021 15:28
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El Camino feels like the ending of the Lotr to me, just giving more of a denoument to a character than anything else. I don't really feel like it meant anything and it rapidly left my memory. Had some good character actors in it tho. BCS, I need to revisit. It's enjoyable and has some good beats. But I'm not sure it's saying anything, you know? It helps to have a main character that is more ambiguous morally than BB.
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May 6, 2021 15:38
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Better Call Saul is legit an incredible show. One of the negative criticisms of it (which I don't personally agree with, but can certainly see their point) is that a lot of the stuff that deals with a pre-Walter White drug empire takes away from the stuff people REALLY want to see, which is more of Jimmy McGill and Kim Wexler doing things both legal and.... not so much. Characters that were fan-favorites in Breaking Bad are around in BCS which makes sense given, well, they existed before Walt!, but some people think it is a little fan-servicey or interested in dealing with an aspect that people know eventually must come into Jimmy/Saul's life but are too busy enjoying his current life to want it to get here too soon. El Camino was... fine. It had its moments and I don't regret watching it, but I also don't think it particularly needed to be made, and what makes it worse is that BCS went on a one-year hiatus when they made it, came back for a season, and then COVID hit which means we're another year behind the next season coming out.
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May 6, 2021 15:43
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BCS is also inconsistent, but at least it likes all its characters. It also has to overcome the hurdle of being a prequel: you know nothing very bad is going to happen to a lot of the characters, so it can seem a little inconsequential.
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May 6, 2021 15:55
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Shageletic posted:I agree with people's takes re Breaking Bad, but I have to say, the show sometimes feels like it wasn't on the same page. Like at times it couldn't decide on whether Walt was a fool or the coolest dude alive, and even in the last season you had ostensibly cool moments of Walt just dominating relative innocents (like with the laser sights) and then at last with what was in his trunk. Yeah, the more I think about Breaking Bad's finale, the more I'm realizing I kind of didn't like it at all, and I think this post does a good job explaining why. We spend the series watching Walt experience his horrible decay, waiting for the consequences of that, and then in the final episode he gets to quickly and neatly wrap up all his loose ends doing Cool Dude poo poo and then dying on his own terms after rescuing Jesse and killing a bunch of Nazis with a machine gun (which he used his Cool Dude brain to rig up a cunning trap with). I mean, you can't say that bleeding out on the floor of a meth lab after a gunfight with nazis is a happy ending for a person, generally, but it seemed a lot neater and tidier than Walt deserved; almost like winking at the horrible men who watch the show for the wrong reason and saying "yeah you're right, Walt is pretty badass, huh?" It seemed out of tone with the rest of the series, imo, although we do at least get to see definitively that his family hates his guts and wouldn't have wanted to ever reconcile with him even if he had lived; there's that I guess. And at least El Camino gave us closure for Jesse, I never liked that the show ended without really finishing the arc of its second-most important, and infinitely more sympathetic, character. With the way it ended in the show, it felt like it was saying "Jesse only mattered in terms of his relationship to Walt" which felt wrong to me Still a great show, but now that the honeymoon period is over I'm ready to admit I didn't think it stuck the landing very well. But endings are hard, I couldn't have done better Also re: skylar; the bullshit with misogynists got so bad that the actress herself became a target, she even wrote a column in the NYT about it: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/opinion/i-have-a-character-issue.html
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May 6, 2021 16:12
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Shageletic posted:Got a link to that article that seems interesting. https://www.wired.com/2013/04/mad-men-season-six-premiere/ Here. My friend transitioned after writing this article. So it's credited under his deadname. He goes by Jay now. Also, me and him watched all of Mad Men together shortly this article came out. And watched season 7 together. Oh and this episode being his first has made them say "I think I love Stan more than warrented because my intro to him was his joke in the season 6 premier" aka the "does this make you think of suicide?" "Of coarse! That's what makes it great" Edit: I reread the article and forgot that he refers to Pete as "Connor from Angel" :P KellHound fucked around with this message at 16:48 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 16:26
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Blood Nightmaster posted:As somebody who's never seen Breaking Bad I have to ask, why was this opinion so ubiquitous? I don't mind spoilers if it helps contextualize things. I hear it was a great show so I'll probably watch it someday regardless Because she acts as a foil to the protagonist by acting like a normal and rational person thrust into an impossible situation; and people are misogynists / idiots. Same type of people hate Keiko in Deep Space 9 for the crime of not being 100% on board with every single decision her husband makes and for being a person with her own goals.
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May 6, 2021 18:11
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Infidelicious posted:Because she acts as a foil to the protagonist by acting like a normal and rational person thrust into an impossible situation; and people are misogynists / idiots. I think writers share some blame here in always making a/the woman the foil/reasonable person/person who gets in the way of something interesting happening.
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May 6, 2021 18:40
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If Steve-o's wife came on to the scene in Jackass every five minutes and lectured them about why jumping off a balcony into a hotel pool is a dumb idea then she's being very reasonable, normal person with her own goals and motivations. But that's not why I'm watching the show.
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May 6, 2021 18:57
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Like, the writers get some blame for using the nagging wife as a way to drive conflict, and for making WW a bit too sympathetic. But the audience gets more blame for not being able to have empathy for a character that isn't the protagonist, because it gets in the way of their fun / idolization of a terrible person.
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May 6, 2021 20:35
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Torquemada posted:BCS is also inconsistent, but at least it likes all its characters. It also has to overcome the hurdle of being a prequel: you know nothing very bad is going to happen to a lot of the characters, so it can seem a little inconsequential. Although I'm frustrated by the prequel-ness of BCS in some regards (the constant self-aware references to later BB crime poo poo, the fact characters now 15 years older are supposed to look like they would've in 2005), I do think the primary character tension surrounding Jimmy and his ethical choices works. Like, we know where Jimmy winds up, what his character ends up becoming, and pragmatically that he lives through it all etc. But the added layers with Chuck and Kim could still go lots of ways without changing the outcome in BB, and the Cinnabon epilogue could go literally anywhere if they wanted to do that. I also really like BCS as a kind of inverse BB. Walter White is an upstanding-seeming guy who's revealed to be truly monstrous inside. His arc is this wild descent into darkness. But Jimmy McGill seems like a genuinely good person constantly tempted to evil through weakness and circumstance. I could watch Walt's trainwreck of a life get worse and worse and feel nothing because I honestly didn't have much empathy for him (for Jesse, yes, but for Walt, hell no.) But Jimmy disappointing Kim or being disavowed by his brother or choosing to become scummy Saul Goodman is actually upsetting to watch. I truly want him to make better choices. It hits a humanity that BB pointedly lacks.
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May 6, 2021 20:39
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Shageletic posted:El Camino feels like the ending of the Lotr to me, just giving more of a denoument to a character than anything else. I don't really feel like it meant anything and it rapidly left my memory. Had some good character actors in it tho. El Camino was basically perfect for what it was. No one else in the show needing anything more to their story besides Jesse. BB was Walter White's story from start to finish with the finale being Walt's final acts, but Jesse deserved his own ending for all that he experienced through it.
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May 6, 2021 21:48
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El Camino was a sort of victory lap, I think. It was a nice, contained story with little complication designed to provide emotional closure and nothing else. I thought Jesse's ending in the main show was great. He rides off, screaming cathartically, before the image cuts back to Walt. Whatever hold Walt once had over him is gone, literalized by this abrupt cut that excises Jesse from Walt's story entirely. El Camino has a much more sentimental and indulgent goal, but I still liked it because....yeah, Jesse went through some *poo poo* and he deserved a happy ending. Anyway, sorry for continuing to talk about other AMC shows in the Mad Men thread. Also, though, what does AMC even have anymore? BCS and like 5 spinoffs of The Walking Dead. JethroMcB posted:[S4 Mad Men stuff] It happens even earlier than S6, Divorced Don is where he really starts to skid. There's an episode, I want to say it's in early S4, where everybody at SCDP is ducking out early for the day for some reason and some of the young copywriters go to check in with Don; they find him passed out on his couch with a drink by his side and somebody mutters "Leave him, he's pathetic." The next generation is already seeing him beyond being the millionaire with the corner office and his name on the door. [S4+] This is true, the onset of these changing values starts way before S6, but it wasn't until S6 that Don looked genuinely pathetic to me, like someone turned on the overhead lights in a dive bar. Though yeah...his drinking across all of S4 gets pretty close to that, particularly the lost weekend episode with the Clios. But definitely, there is a generational bent to criticism of his drinking throughout. I think it was Joey from the art department who called him pathetic, and Nurse Phoebe likens him to her drunk father. And yeah, in later seasons Megan becomes the primary voice of restraint, and there's that point where Peggy chastises Don for drinking Ted under the table. Much like Freddie Rumsen, it had to get bad enough for Don's drinking to gently caress over a client meeting for anyone older than 30 to speak up, which seems like a relevant detail. I guess that's consistent with a theme of Sally's plotlines, which is her coming-of-age being linked to an awareness of how vain and irresponsible her parents' generation is. "How's the city?" "Dirty."
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May 7, 2021 01:09
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Genuine question, what need is there to label spoilers by season? Is there anyone who hasn't seen the whole show but is ahead of the thread?
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May 7, 2021 01:20
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Some people are watching for the first time and each person is watching at their own pace, maybe they want to read spoilers for stuff they already saw?
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May 7, 2021 02:15
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The Klowner posted:Genuine question, what need is there to label spoilers by season? Is there anyone who hasn't seen the whole show but is ahead of the thread? i personally don't give a poo poo about spoilers but i know lots of people do, it's a low effort way of managing it, i think it's sensible and low drama. As opposed by labelling it by season and ep or w/e.
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May 7, 2021 02:31
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The Klowner posted:Genuine question, what need is there to label spoilers by season? Is there anyone who hasn't seen the whole show but is ahead of the thread? Yes, though I don't have any opinion on spoilers. (The season 3 finale writeup reminded me that this is nearly where I stopped watching, so technically I've not seen the whole show but am ahead of the thread.) (That said, I remember nothing about season 4, and my having stopped is more an indication that I got distracted/busy than anything to do with the show.)
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May 7, 2021 05:15
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A subtle contrast that somehow stuck with me, that exemplifies Don’s change throughout the series is that in the first season he seems like the natural centre of any party, even when he just wants to sod off and be somewhere else. later on, after Cutler et.al. are involved, he arrives at a party in the office, and just stands there, awkwardly at the edge, and whether or not he was present wouldn’t really matter at all. and he is the boss of creative! and a partner! usually that status should give some gravitas to your presence, but it doesn’t in Don’s case, which shows just how pathetic he has become after season 4. kind of an echo of Pete’s baby shower and/or Harry’s bachelor party earlier, during his first disappearance
ulvir fucked around with this message at 10:54 on May 7, 2021 |
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May 7, 2021 10:50
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I remember liking El Camino and watching it when it came out, but I gave up on BCS after the premiere of season 2. Should I give it another go? Don stuff: Don being the center of the party and subsequently leaving it also has to do with what his place in the companies were. In season 1, even as creative director, he is a HENRY and doesn't have the gently caress you money like Roger or Bert - he may be the boss but he has much closer connections to Harry, Paul, Sal, and Ken as young guys in the office. After they leave to SCDP, those kinds of interactions never happen with the newer staff - the only ones he really gets a good connection with is Stan and Peggy. The higher up he gets the less connection he has to the regular staff, like with the Mathis stuff we talked about before. But I think that's clearly laid out in the show - him being out of touch by the end of the series is incredibly obvious. Remember how long it took Don to shift into the new tie styles or wear a blue shirt compared to everybody else? And of drinking, Is the S3 finale when he gets drunk and confronts Betty the first time we see him as a real sloppy drunk? That is the real difference for me - the appeal of Draper, in show and for the "real men" fans, was that he kept his cool, which he always seemed to do in the earlier seasons. When he threatens to run away with Rachel he didn't seem drunk. Passing out in California can be attributed to the sun and the heat, perhaps more than the drinking. I don't remember similar incidents in earlier seasons. In season 4 it happens a couple times, most noticeably in the Suitcase and after the Clio awards. Once you get to season 7 it happens every other episode. The absolute nadir in the finale when he says "you got any liquor? I've been drinking beer all day" is...just so sad and pathetic.
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May 7, 2021 11:40
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Thinking about it now, between the smoking and nonstop drinking, don and roger must have smelled awful
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May 7, 2021 19:44
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Tobacco smoke kills your sense of smell so its a problem that solves itself. Even if you don't smoke, all that secondhand would get to you.
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May 7, 2021 19:59
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Before about 1985, that was just the general background smell of society. Everything reeked of cigarette smoke. Literally everything.
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May 7, 2021 21:02
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Cigarettes and alcohol are the two worst inventions mankind has ever created. This includes the atomic bomb, capitalism, and Crazy Frog's rendition of "Axel F"
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May 7, 2021 21:16
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My dad smoked for years and gave it up cold turkey one day and managed to stay smokefree ever since (the first year was the worst apparently, for us kids we just assumed he stopped and was fine), and he said the thing that really got to him was realizing just how much everybody stank of tobacco and how he had been walking around like that for years completely oblivious.
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May 7, 2021 21:37
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When I was a tween, my mom stopped cold after she watched an anti-smoking ad where cigarette smoke was coming out of an infant's mouth. She said she always knew smoking was bad for her, but the ad made her confront the fact that it was bad for her kids too. The image of the smoking baby horrified her so much she had nightmares about it. Moral of the story: advertising is... good??
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May 7, 2021 21:51
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The Klowner posted:Genuine question, what need is there to label spoilers by season? Is there anyone who hasn't seen the whole show but is ahead of the thread? Must protect Jerusalem e: 
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May 7, 2021 21:55
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ulvir posted:A subtle contrast that somehow stuck with me, that exemplifies Don’s change throughout the series is that in the first season he seems like the natural centre of any party, even when he just wants to sod off and be somewhere else. later on, after Cutler et.al. are involved, he arrives at a party in the office, and just stands there, awkwardly at the edge, and whether or not he was present wouldn’t really matter at all. and he is the boss of creative! and a partner! usually that status should give some gravitas to your presence, but it doesn’t in Don’s case, which shows just how pathetic he has become after season 4. kind of an echo of Pete’s baby shower and/or Harry’s bachelor party earlier, during his first disappearance being aloof and mysterious is just being a pain in real life, and its cool the other characters recognize it. Imagine this dude was your boss. I wouldnt want to talk to him.
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May 7, 2021 21:58
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Just so I'm clear, I'm not against the use of spoilers in general, far from it. Labeling them by season is what I take issue with. It's a little loose to talk about things spoilered and unspoilered in the same post in the first place, and I feel the problem is made more egregious when you explicitly label the spoiler for no apparent benefit. For example, if someone is talking about how Peggy kills Frieza in season 3 (pretty definitive end for Frieza, wouldn't you say?) and then goes on to mention how [S4]she revives him with the Dragon Balls right before the Tournament of Power, what is someone who hasn't seen S4 supposed to take away from seeing that juxtaposition? What if the spoiler is mislabeled and someone who has seen S4 gets a S5 spoiler by accident? Not saying any of that's been happening constantly but I think the marginal benefit, whatever that may be, of labeling a spoiler by which seasons are required viewing is outweighed heavily by the potential for problematic experiences for people who haven't seen everything yet. I know I talk about the usage of spoilers a lot but I've spoken my piece on this at least. If it's not a problem for people who haven't seen the whole show, it's not a problem for me.
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May 7, 2021 22:28
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