|
garycoleisgod posted:Part of the problem with the argument that Killmonger doesn't actually care about oppressed people, or at least that's not his primary motivation and is just all about personal revenge is that in that narrative he is still a massive babyface. Yes we are, he advocates for global race war. Killmonger is only right if you don’t listen to half his lines or pay attention to his actions. It is weird how he doesn’t get hate for working for the CIA that much when like half of BP discussion here is mad that Martin Freeman’s character did.
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 23:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:43 |
|
|
Spacebump posted:It is weird how he doesn’t get hate for working for the CIA that much when like half of BP discussion here is mad that Martin Freeman’s character did. Because Killmonger is blowback and Martin Freeman is the CIA actively working with the heroes of the film.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:00
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:Because Killmonger is blowback and Martin Freeman is the CIA actively working with the heroes of the film. Killmonger made a lot of marks on his body for people he killed. Most of those were presumably done while he worked for the CIA. He wasn’t a good dude, if anything he was a serial killer. We don’t know exactly what Freeman has done with the CIA in his career, but we know some of what Killmonger did.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:05
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:Killmonger made a lot of marks on his body for people he killed. Most of those were presumably done while he worked for the CIA. He wasn’t a good dude, if anything he was a serial killer. We don’t know exactly what Freeman has done with the CIA in his career, but we know some of what Killmonger did. Yeah, exactly. The CIA is awful. Only one of those two characters was currently working with the CIA instead of against it during the movie proper.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:11
|
|
|
We see Erik Stevens lose his father as a boy and we sympathize with his anger, so even if he very clearly does bad things, it's a shame he apparently has to die without anyone in his family ever reaching out to him with love. He was a lost soul and it was wrong to let him die based on a spur-of-the-moment decision, which can be true even if he has committed evil acts in his life.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:15
|
|
|
LesterGroans posted:Yeah, exactly. The CIA is awful. Only one of those two characters was currently working with the CIA instead of against it during the movie proper. We don’t know how awful MCU CIA is. Presumably Shield did some of their bad work instead, though I’ll give you maybe they didn’t and their CIA has just as much blood on its hands. However, if we aren’t filling in the gaps left by the film with our own imagination. Killmonger is shown to be a horrible person, worse than Freeman’s character. Freeman’s character doesn’t give the CIA everything in the briefing at the end. Freeman’s character helps stop Killmonger from starting a global race war. Saying he is equally bad or not as bad as Freeman’s character is ridiculous. One is a serial killer trying to cause untold amounts of more death, the other is helping the heroes of the film stop that.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:17
|
|
|
In the MCU, "CIA" stands for "Contraband Investigations Agency" and all they do is track stolen goods that might be smuggled between national lines. It's why Martin Freeman's on the case, he's looking for the artifacts Erik stole. edit: Unfortunately, it's easily confused with the "CIA" - the Criminal Indecency Association - that trained Erik to be a mass murderer. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 00:26 on May 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:22
|
|
|
"Serial killer" doesn't include everyone who has killed multiple people and would not seem to include Erik Stevens.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:24
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:"Serial killer" doesn't include everyone who has killed multiple people and would not seem to include Erik Stevens. What’s the difference between him and Victor Zsasz? They both kill a ton of people and make marks on their body for each kill. Zsasz is a serial killer. Killmonger was trying to expand his killing to much greater level.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:31
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:We don’t know how awful MCU CIA is. Presumably Shield did some of their bad work instead, though I’ll give you maybe they didn’t and their CIA has just as much blood on its hands. However, if we aren’t filling in the gaps left by the film with our own imagination. Killmonger is shown to be a horrible person, worse than Freeman’s character. Freeman’s character doesn’t give the CIA everything in the briefing at the end. Freeman’s character helps stop Killmonger from starting a global race war. Saying he is equally bad or not as bad as Freeman’s character is ridiculous. One is a serial killer trying to cause untold amounts of more death, the other is helping the heroes of the film stop that. You're the one who keeps calling him a serial killer. Your new theory that the CIA was actually not that bad and he was just one of the "bad apples" who was using his CIA training and resources to do more than the allotted amount of sanctioned killings? lol
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:31
|
|
|
Lol so literally it's fine for a member of the CIA to massacre a bunch of people as long as they don't mark their body, that's a bridge too far and obvious sickie territory. Sure the cops/the CIA/the FBI/the military intentionally kill a shitload of people but they don't like, get tattoos about it* *(ignore the ones who specifically get tattoos to celebrate their service in these institutions please)
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:34
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:Your new theory that the CIA was actually not that bad and he was just one of the "bad apples" who was using his CIA training and resources to do more than the allotted amount of sanctioned killings? lol aaaaaaaaaa
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:34
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:You're the one who keeps calling him a serial killer. Your new theory that the CIA was actually not that bad and he was just one of the "bad apples" who was using his CIA training and resources to do more than the allotted amount of sanctioned killings? lol In the context of Black Panther, the CIA agent was the one trying to stop mass murder by Killmonger. Also, if you read my post you might have seen the part where I mention Freeman’s character doesn’t show complete loyalty to the CIA by the end of the film. If you have issues identifying Killmonger as a bad guy I don’t know what to tell you.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:34
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:What’s the difference between him and Victor Zsasz? They both kill a ton of people and make marks on their body for each kill. Zsasz is a serial killer. Killmonger was trying to expand his killing to much greater level. Serial killing is specifically murder and most of Stevens' killing was authorized by his government. The few criminal murders we saw were over too short a period of time to qualify him as a serial killer. Note, "not technically a serial killer" doesn't mean "good guy." Nobody in this thread thinks that killing people for the CIA is okay. You can just say he did that without introducing terms with specific meanings that don't apply.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:35
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:Serial killing is specifically murder and most of Stevens' killing was authorized by his government. The few criminal murders we saw were over too short a period of time to qualify him as a serial killer. Note, "not technically a serial killer" doesn't mean "good guy." Thank you, I appreciate your explanation. I was wrong to use the phrase serial killer instead of killer.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 00:37
|
|
|
pospysyl posted:In the MCU, "CIA" stands for "Contraband Investigations Agency" and all they do is track stolen goods that might be smuggled between national lines. It's why Martin Freeman's on the case, he's looking for the artifacts Erik stole. Like how NAMBLA (the North American Marlon Brando Love Association) is always furious with getting confused with NAMBLA (the North American Man-Boy Love Association).
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 01:44
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 01:44
|
|
|
The CIA in the film is the same as the CIA in real life, that's why they call it the CIA and don't come up with a pretend government agency to fill that role in the story
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 01:47
|
|
|
As a Black Panther liker, I don't think Killmonger is hard to decode. Killmonger grew up in a hosed up place, tucked away his trauma by taking on an authoritarian roles out of a sense of security. Killmonger is visually coded as a cop for a lot of the movie--blues, tactical gear--as well as the Wakandans who actually side with him who are functionally border patrol. But he really did grow up in a racist rear end country and see his dad die. It's supposed to be tragic because he does have legitimate grievances and you can see the hurt in his father during the ancestral plane scene. The line at the end of the movie is not him appropriating real struggles--talk to Claude McKay about what it means to be a wealthy and well-to-do Black man immigrating to the US--because those are real struggles. Killmonger being a super-predator is the worst take.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 02:17
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:The CIA in the film is the same as the CIA in real life, that's why they call it the CIA and don't come up with a pretend government agency to fill that role in the story I don't see Martin Freeman do much cooking for a Culinary Institute of America chef.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 02:25
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:As a Black Panther liker, I don't think Killmonger is hard to decode. Killmonger grew up in a hosed up place, tucked away his trauma by taking on an authoritarian roles out of a sense of security. Killmonger is visually coded as a cop for a lot of the movie--blues, tactical gear--as well as the Wakandans who actually side with him who are functionally border patrol. But he really did grow up in a racist rear end country and see his dad die. It's supposed to be tragic because he does have legitimate grievances and you can see the hurt in his father during the ancestral plane scene. The line at the end of the movie is not him appropriating real struggles--talk to Claude McKay about what it means to be a wealthy and well-to-do Black man immigrating to the US--because those are real struggles. Nobody said super-predator. Yes his story is tragic, but tragic people can still commit wrongs. At some point he should be accountable for his actions. Doesn't Killmonger kill or attempt to kill almost every woman he talks to in the movie? Why did he need to murder his girlfriend? Isn't he introduced in a scene where he is leading a squad to commit mass murder in museum during the day? This was better to do than rob the museum at night because?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 02:49
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:We don’t know how awful MCU CIA is. Presumably Shield did some of their bad work instead, though I’ll give you maybe they didn’t and their CIA has just as much blood on its hands. However, if we aren’t filling in the gaps left by the film with our own imagination. Killmonger is shown to be a horrible person, worse than Freeman’s character. Freeman’s character doesn’t give the CIA everything in the briefing at the end. Freeman’s character helps stop Killmonger from starting a global race war. Saying he is equally bad or not as bad as Freeman’s character is ridiculous. One is a serial killer trying to cause untold amounts of more death, the other is helping the heroes of the film stop that. In the MCU, US intelligence was all being run by an undead Nazi. So the CIA is exactly the same as in real life.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 03:15
|
|
|
I gotta say, as many times as this discussion has happened here, "maybe the MCU CIA isn't as bad as the real life one" is a bold new direction.Sir Kodiak posted:"Serial killer" doesn't include everyone who has killed multiple people and would not seem to include Erik Stevens. Especially since T'Challa kills a dozen people in the opening scene. None of them are even named. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 04:59 on May 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 04:56
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:I gotta say, as many times as this discussion has happened here, "maybe the MCU CIA isn't as bad as the real life one" is a bold new direction. I only said it was possible but also said they could be as bad. It isn't too ridiculous of a thought when you consider the MCU at some point diverges to having different Presidents and SHIELD seemed to be above them in importance (though not to the public, as shown in Ironman). What I am saying is it is possible bad things the CIA did IRL were potentially done by SHIELD in the MCU. SHIELD likely caused worse issues since they were run by Hydra Nazis. However, nothing confirms this and the MCU CIA could even be worse for all we know.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:08
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:Nobody said super-predator. Yes his story is tragic, but tragic people can still commit wrongs. At some point he should be accountable for his actions. Doesn't Killmonger kill or attempt to kill almost every woman he talks to in the movie? Why did he need to murder his girlfriend? Isn't he introduced in a scene where he is leading a squad to commit mass murder in museum during the day? This was better to do than rob the museum at night because? He doesn’t have to do any of those things. He’s a character in a movie written that way. The question, as has been mentioned repeatedly, is why is the only voice on the entire MCU that’s talking about liberation of the dispossessed from white supremacy also just so goddamn crazy that he just lives for murder? It’s like if they had a character talking about trans rights that was also a sadistic pedophile would your response be “well, it’s tough to be trans but that’s no excuse for being a sadistic pedophile” or would you instead wonder why they chose to represent the trans rights person, who is the only one in the entire MCU, as a sadistic pedophile?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:08
|
|
|
The MCU is also objectively worse than our actually-existing U, because have you seen the poo poo that goes down between 2008 and 2021 after Iron Man shows up? MCU is dog poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:29
|
|
|
You all are making me want to re-watch some Marvel films lol
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:33
|
|
|
YOLOsubmarine posted:He doesn’t have to do any of those things. He’s a character in a movie written that way. The question, as has been mentioned repeatedly, is why is the only voice on the entire MCU that’s talking about liberation of the dispossessed from white supremacy also just so goddamn crazy that he just lives for murder? Nakai is a character that exists in the film and advocates for T’Challa to open up to the world and invest in the prosperity and well-being of black people.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:46
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:Nakai is a character that exists in the film and advocates for T’Challa to open up to the world and invest in the prosperity and well-being of black people. going to go out on a limb and say her concept of black liberation isn’t quite as dramatic as Killmonger’s
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:54
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:Nakai is a character that exists in the film and advocates for T’Challa to open up to the world and invest in the prosperity and well-being of black people. That’s not the same as black liberation. The Bill Gates foundation spending a bunch of money on Africa isn’t a black liberation movement.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 05:56
|
|
|
YOLOsubmarine posted:That’s not the same as black liberation. The Bill Gates foundation spending a bunch of money on Africa isn’t a black liberation movement. Ah, but what if Bill Gates were black?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 06:01
|
|
|
I mean, the Chinese government is doing a shitload of investment in Africa. Is the CCP thus about Black Liberation?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 06:46
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:I mean, the Chinese government is doing a shitload of investment in Africa. Is the CCP thus about Black Liberation? This is a bad faith post because you are deliberately ignoring the why behind investments for Wakanda vs CCP.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 07:04
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:This is a bad faith post because you are deliberately ignoring the why behind investments for Wakanda vs CCP. what is the why behind Wakanda's investments?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 09:38
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:I only said it was possible but also said they could be as bad. It isn't too ridiculous of a thought when you consider the MCU at some point diverges to having different Presidents and SHIELD seemed to be above them in importance (though not to the public, as shown in Ironman). What I am saying is it is possible bad things the CIA did IRL were potentially done by SHIELD in the MCU. SHIELD likely caused worse issues since they were run by Hydra Nazis. However, nothing confirms this and the MCU CIA could even be worse for all we know. You're approaching the MCU like it's a literal parallel universe as opposed to a fictional bunch of work to be interpreted. Imagine if the MCU had an origin story of the CIA without its horrid history, but genuinely fighting for 'truth and justice'. Then we would have that in conjunction with a story where the real global threat is a black guy being too mad about systemic oppression. Like no, this would make the MCU even more obscene, not less. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 13:06 on May 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 12:47
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:"Serial killer" doesn't include everyone who has killed multiple people and would not seem to include Erik Stevens. Sir Kodiak posted:Serial killing is specifically murder and most of Stevens' killing was authorized by his government. 
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 13:27
|
|
|
Come to think of it, the MCU CIA being different would explain that weird scene where Tony Stark flies to the oil-rich Socialist Republic of Iran and trips on their safe, legal LSD.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 13:32
|
|
|
KVeezy3 posted:You're approaching the MCU like it's a literal parallel universe as opposed to a fictional bunch of work to be interpreted. Imagine if the MCU had an origin story of the CIA without its horrid history, but genuinely fighting for 'truth and justice'. Then we would have that in conjunction with a story where the real global threat is a black guy being too mad about systemic oppression. But that's why all the Ross stuff seems gross to me, not because the film is CIA propaganda per se--although it has literally been used as such--but that the film both recognizes that the CIA is bad, Ross is at least complicit in imperialism, but gives him a weak redemption arc so maybe the CIA isn't all THAT bad? Spacebump posted:Nobody said super-predator. Yes his story is tragic, but tragic people can still commit wrongs. At some point he should be accountable for his actions. Doesn't Killmonger kill or attempt to kill almost every woman he talks to in the movie? Why did he need to murder his girlfriend? Isn't he introduced in a scene where he is leading a squad to commit mass murder in museum during the day? This was better to do than rob the museum at night because?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 14:59
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:But that's why all the Ross stuff seems gross to me, not because the film is CIA propaganda per se--although it has literally been used as such--but that the film both recognizes that the CIA is bad, Ross is at least complicit in imperialism, but gives him a weak redemption arc so maybe the CIA isn't all THAT bad? When he started saying how Killmonger is using the CIA's methods I was briefly expecting him to then reveal how he was working with Killmonger all along to bring Freedom to Wakanda which is why they were so easily able to bust Ulysses Klaue out/etc. Naive of course but in the moment of watching the movie I was just assuming he was going to turn out to be bad or at least conflicted/complicit at some point because as others pointed out I figured like why else is he just a "regular" CIA guy and not from SHIELD or whatever. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 15:25 on May 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 15:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:43 |
|
|
Neo Rasa posted:When he started saying how Killmonger is using the CIA's methods I was briefly expecting him to then reveal how he was working with Killmonger all along to bring Freedom to Wakanda which is why they were so easily able to bust Ulysses Klaue out/etc. Naive of course but in the moment of watching the movie I was just assuming he was going to turn out to be bad or at least conflicted/complicit at some point because as others pointed out I figured like why else is he just a "regular" CIA guy and not from SHIELD or whatever.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 15:36
|
|