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mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

The stumpify thing is interesting. I think it passed? If I read it correctly, Humalong will be a temporary special player who may or may not be town-aligned.

The fun choice is, of course, to stumpify him. I worry that it will make the game harder for town though. It's already hard enough to cut through all the noise and find scum.

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.random
May 7, 2007

Grandicap posted:

I think he's scum. If he's scum he'll find a way to use the power in the way that most benefits scum.

...

There is no trust there, I'm not going to stop voting the person I think is scum because he might point the gun in the direction we tell him to if we ask nicely.

Hm. Ok. Fair

AT-LOW
Mar 18, 2021

Battle routine, set!
Demon Summoning Program, execute!


Grandicap posted:

I feel like this is how AT-LOW posts in every game I've seen.

AT-LOW, have you been scum in recent memory so I can peruse that game?

I have literally never been scum on this website, I'm afraid

Hal Insandenza posted:

I agree, although maaaaaaybe I could see AT-LOW being a bit more... concerned about appearances?

However, Hal is very sharp! I am actively trying to concern myself less with appearances this game. If Hal noticed that, Hal probably has a good grasp on my play in general

If you'd like, Grandi, I could tell you what people offsite consider my scum meta, but that would be me telling you my scum meta and it would be discord Mafia vs. forum Mafia, so it would all have to be taken with several grains of salt

mega dy
Dec 6, 2003

.random posted:

If he does the town’s will, we effectively get two lynches one day. That doesn’t free him from scrutiny or mean he’s not scum, and he should have to post and vote just like everyone else so his motives and vote history can be evaluated.

I don’t think it should give him a free pass by any means, and his behavior is demonstrably the scummiest (I.e., anti-town), so I’d accept a vote on him. I just think it’s a creative and potentially useful alternative if we
1. Get that agreement, and
2. Find a different compelling D1 case.
Failing either 1 or 2 however, I think a Solus vote is a good option.
I get the logic but this seems a bit naive. I'm also confused about what your actual read on his alignment is.

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

.random posted:

If he does the town’s will, we effectively get two lynches one day. That doesn’t free him from scrutiny or mean he’s not scum, and he should have to post and vote just like everyone else so his motives and vote history can be evaluated.

I don’t think it should give him a free pass by any means, and his behavior is demonstrably the scummiest (I.e., anti-town), so I’d accept a vote on him. I just think it’s a creative and potentially useful alternative if we
1. Get that agreement, and
2. Find a different compelling D1 case.
Failing either 1 or 2 however, I think a Solus vote is a good option.

how was solus's behavior demonstrably scummy?

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
grandi could be scum. in which case it was demonstrably townie

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply

It's goofy to say "ah well if Solus just doesn't agree we execute him" when that doesn't really help town too much since a scum Solus would get a free kill.

Like, if you think he's scummy, that's not a compelling deal! Scum Solus kills town, gets executed, and scum get another night kill.

.random
May 7, 2007

Mr. Steak posted:

how was solus's behavior demonstrably scummy?

Cuz he shot (or attempted) a person supposedly at random at the beginning of the game, which is bad for town statistically speaking, and doesn’t give info on him (Solus) or anyone else in the game because it was too early to see interplay.

If it killed Grandi and Grandi was scum, it would have been beneficial to town basically by accident.

Grandicap
Feb 8, 2006

I don't like random at the moment either, both writing off Solus as demonstrably scum, and trying to work out a deal to keep them alive.

Grandicap
Feb 8, 2006

Grandicap posted:

I don't like random at the moment either, both writing off Solus as demonstrably scum, and trying to work out a deal to keep them alive.

*demonstrably scummy not scum

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

.random posted:


If it killed Grandi and Grandi was scum, it would have been beneficial to town basically by accident.

and that would make him scummy?

.random
May 7, 2007

Mr. Steak posted:

and that would make him scummy?

No? But either he’s:
- Town that doesn’t care that he’s playing bad odds and not providing any info to town but might maybe get lucky I guess cool
- Scum that obviously doesn’t care cuz they wouldn’t
- Third party, ditto to the above

This is bizarre that I’m being sort of attacked by Mr. Steak for calling him scummy and by Grandi for not calling him scummy enough?

Wtf

Sandwolf
Jan 23, 2007

i'll be harpo


Random do you think Solus is scum yes or no

Sandwolf
Jan 23, 2007

i'll be harpo


Even if it’s just 51% make a rough call on his alignment

.random
May 7, 2007

Honest answer: I don’t know anymore because I am deep in WIFOM territory and frankly he hasn’t posted much. (Scum wouldn’t be so dumb to do this at the start of D1! But they know you’d think that! If he were scum, he’d be posting more to stay alive! But he knows that so he won’t play it too hard!)

But based primarily on my current feelings about who is voting Solus, I am surprised to say I... don’t think he’s scum

ObamaAkbar.
Apr 7, 2009

DesiredPopulationMin = 3
DesiredPopulationMax = 19
AverageDeathsPerDay = 6
WeaponsUsed = 13



CCKeane posted:

It's goofy to say "ah well if Solus just doesn't agree we execute him" when that doesn't really help town too much since a scum Solus would get a free kill.

Like, if you think he's scummy, that's not a compelling deal! Scum Solus kills town, gets executed, and scum get another night kill.

1:1 scum:town trade is not a good deal for scum though, I agree with grandi that solus should shoot based on his own reasoning rather than randomly or by town concensus but I’m still not super keen on the solus case. Is any of it based on anything apart from a first post vig? It’s a null tell to me, his latest post didn’t ready scummy to me either and I hate cases that involve accusations of players ‘disappearing’, especially on a weekend.

AT-LOW
Mar 18, 2021

Battle routine, set!
Demon Summoning Program, execute!


Solus it's nice(?) you came back with scumreads but they're literally all based on your own situation, might you consider commenting on something else

You're also mistaken that I thought you were town but w/e I already went over that twice

CCKeane posted:

It's goofy to say "ah well if Solus just doesn't agree we execute him" when that doesn't really help town too much since a scum Solus would get a free kill.

Like, if you think he's scummy, that's not a compelling deal! Scum Solus kills town, gets executed, and scum get another night kill.

Right, which is why I proposed it on Solus's NAI game with anti-town ability use

As I said before and as Grandi is saying now, there's no point on doing it on a scummy player, you just vote them

But a player can easily anti-town first post vig regardless of their alignment, so given that there was no content yet and more potential vig, I proposed that we say "stop being anti-town or be voted" (rather than simply vote out of hand as some seemed ready to). A town player who cooperates will be more protown than before, while a scum player who wants to try and disguise scumminess as chaos will be struck by the vote contingency. A scum player who cooperates must be found out through content, which is how things normally are. It seemed like a workable scenario to me.

But Solus... hmm. What is this re-entry? Stream of consciousness analysis incoming

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:

.random posted:

Ah right, on that matter. Welcome back Solus. Would you agree to the terms of not using your power except how the town votes for you to use it?

lol no

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016

right, i'm off to bed so i'm going to ##vote dy.

they're one of the people who were pinging me and the way the votes are sitting now i get the most info on AT-LOW and binus out of it i think.

see you after deadline!

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply


I respect this post immensely.

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:

AT-LOW posted:

Solus it's nice(?) you came back with scumreads but they're literally all based on your own situation, might you consider commenting on something else

the best reads come from other people casing you, because you already know your own alignment, which makes it easier to spot disingenuous cases

for example, grandicap is casing me from what feels like a genuine position and not trying to force something
random just feels kinda new, and feels well-intentioned in their attempts to get me to go along with some democratic use of vigs (which, again, lol no)
keane definitely feels like he's trying to force a case on me
sng's case is genuinely terrible and is just setup spec math and not enough people have called him on that

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:

Toalpaz posted:

Solus didn't scum claim which is a point against him being town. Why are we stumpifying hum?

I think I decided to retire that gimmick a few games ago, but it has been quite a while since I last played

AT-LOW
Mar 18, 2021

Battle routine, set!
Demon Summoning Program, execute!


Solus comes back full of bravado, acts like he is not at all on the back foot, sends out sus at a bunch of people based exclusively on his own situation, offers (to toal) to lurker vig toal

Why

Why show up and be both unconcerned and unhelpful

Is the idea that we're supposed to go "oh there's no way scum would come back with literally nothing prepared, they had a whole scumchat to help with that"?

For town Solus what's the deal, are we to assume town Solus has only bothered to look at his own situation and simply does not care about the thread's goings-on outside himself?

Every time I look at this re-entry it looks worse

AT-LOW
Mar 18, 2021

Battle routine, set!
Demon Summoning Program, execute!


SolusLunes posted:

the best reads come from other people casing you, because you already know your own alignment, which makes it easier to spot disingenuous cases

So you started from a position of "I need to have scumreads" not "I need to figure out what's going on this game"?

##vote SolusLunes

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:

AT-LOW posted:

Solus comes back full of bravado, acts like he is not at all on the back foot, sends out sus at a bunch of people based exclusively on his own situation, offers (to toal) to lurker vig toal

Why

Why show up and be both unconcerned and unhelpful

Is the idea that we're supposed to go "oh there's no way scum would come back with literally nothing prepared, they had a whole scumchat to help with that"?

because it's day 1 and I am both unconcerned and feeling unhelpful- look, I posted my reads and my reasoning

AT-LOW posted:

For town Solus what's the deal, are we to assume town Solus has only bothered to look at his own situation and simply does not care about the thread's goings-on outside himself?

that's a pretty good assumption at this time, yes

AT-LOW posted:

Every time I look at this re-entry it looks worse

:justpost:

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:

AT-LOW posted:

So you started from a position of "I need to have scumreads" not "I need to figure out what's going on this game"?

##vote SolusLunes

fuckin' lol

sandnavyguy
Sep 12, 2015

SolusLunes posted:

the best reads come from other people casing you, because you already know your own alignment, which makes it easier to spot disingenuous cases

for example, grandicap is casing me from what feels like a genuine position and not trying to force something
random just feels kinda new, and feels well-intentioned in their attempts to get me to go along with some democratic use of vigs (which, again, lol no)
keane definitely feels like he's trying to force a case on me
sng's case is genuinely terrible and is just setup spec math and not enough people have called him on that

Sorry but no.

It’s genuinely terrible why?

Math is bad because it could be used by scum or by town correct? So it’s an easy smokescreen to use. That doesn’t make it a faulty argument, just a null one. Annoying, sure, but not wrong.

Here’s the thing about setup arguments. The argument, when based on setup spec is bad when we do not know the roles. With the exception of 3, we do here, it is completely viable in a wifom game to use roles to pinpoint intent based on how they are used since their natures themselves are null due to the game type.

The argument, based on your direct actions, is a sound one, just a cold and calculating one. It isn’t lazy, and it certainly isn’t terrible.

AT-LOW
Mar 18, 2021

Battle routine, set!
Demon Summoning Program, execute!


SolusLunes posted:

that's a pretty good assumption at this time, yes

You're being unhelpful on purpose!?

I'm sorry, but I physically cannot point at this and go "yeah, this is town", I just can't

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination
okay apart from solus who is the scummiest person here AT-LOW

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:

AT-LOW posted:

You're being unhelpful on purpose!?

I'm sorry, but I physically cannot point at this and go "yeah, this is town", I just can't

you sure found ways to do it earlier in the thread, and that's why I'm suspicious of you

ObamaAkbar.
Apr 7, 2009

DesiredPopulationMin = 3
DesiredPopulationMax = 19
AverageDeathsPerDay = 6
WeaponsUsed = 13



So apart from solus what were the other claimed roles?

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

ObamaAkbar. posted:

So apart from solus what were the other claimed roles?

thats literally not relevant but i suppose why not. off the top of my head sal is vt, keane is mystery role (didnt claim which)

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
oh sandwolf mason

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
anyway solus's posting has made me more alright with voting him

AT-LOW
Mar 18, 2021

Battle routine, set!
Demon Summoning Program, execute!


SolusLunes posted:

you sure found ways to do it earlier in the thread, and that's why I'm suspicious of you

If you want to know what that's about, consider: reading my posts

Toalpaz posted:

okay apart from solus who is the scummiest person here AT-LOW

I have been on dy literally all day, and the next person I'm planning on looking into is random, I felt like the statistics post was the worst early poke at Solus and the statistics thing just came back

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
at the very least the vote isn't boring as poo poo anymore (cuz solus has posted and the case has evolved past "vig bad")

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
that said, hes still not my first choice. but i wont fight it

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
it does help that i feel good about all the people currently voting solus, too

Mr. Steak
May 9, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
well, null on sng

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Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination

AT-LOW posted:

If you want to know what that's about, consider: reading my posts


I have been on dy literally all day, and the next person I'm planning on looking into is random, I felt like the statistics post was the worst early poke at Solus and the statistics thing just came back

BEEP BEEP okay you're town. you passed my cylon test.


Mr. Steak posted:

at the very least the vote isn't boring as poo poo anymore (cuz solus has posted and the case has evolved past "vig bad")

Steak you gotta.... You gotta believe town would kill town for no reason. Especially with a russian roulette... I didn't believe and I vigged town bif last time... SO you gotta believe.

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