|
Srice posted:It even dates back to the silent era. For example The General was broadly based on a real story but made its hero part of the Confederacy instead of the Union. Buster Keaton didn't think anyone would sympathize with the Union. Birth of Nation premiered in an already lynch-heavy time - even by those standards - with the message "The South was right." The cherry on top was sitting President Woodrow Wilson endorsing it.
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 08:14 |
|
|
hard counter posted:as a quick background, historically there's a difference between first wave confederates, the idiots who joined the sedition immediately because they agreed with its wretched, underlying principles, and second wave confederates, dudes who, for their part, just wanted to stay out of the war when it started but were dragged into it when it came to their doorstep when their communities were either getting shelled by direct union attacks or raided during foraging parties by regular forces, OR irregular forces that were vaguely pro-union (there were essentially bands of lawless roving 'bushwackers' on both sides who used civil war as an excuse to loot and/or kill their neighbours in horrible, horrible acts of irregular warfare, some acts were so vile it would led many historians to describe many of those guerrilla leaders as pure psychopaths...now, i'm summarizing heaps of history quick and dirty, but there was certainly some awful, historical internecine conflict that left lasting scars in the psyches of the involved) The writer of the book it was based on (Asa Earl Carter) was a member of the KKK, he was a segregationist speaker who among other things managed to rile up a mob of white men to go after blacks in Clinton once, and he helped write George Wallace's "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" slogan. I am... deeply dubious that kind of source was really revisionist, no matter how much Eastwood may have tried to tone it down (assuming the guy whose brain was so broken by Obama he lectured a chair about it tried to tone it down).
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 21:01
|
|
|
To be fair I think that post itself does involve revisionism. Just not the part that they accept as such
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 21:04
|
|
|
Jezebel posted:Speaking of inappropriate 80s "it's not sexual assault when it's a 16yr old boy! High five man!"... Lots of people didn't realise Don Draper was raped.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
cold mountain: wherein jude law plays a handsome, lovelorn confederate soldier who was definitely a first wave enlistee. yeah he's a deserter who doesn't harbor any ill will towards "those people", but his disillusionment with the military and the conflict is incredibly vague and never outright stated. he's the ultimate "it was about states rights" hero, especially considering i think the only union soldiers with speaking roles are a band of marauding rapists (and cillian murphy) renee zellweger won an oscar for squinting in the rain and shouting BOTH SIDES HAVE VERY VERY BAD MEN
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 21:45
|
|
|
MadDogMike posted:The writer of the book it was based on (Asa Earl Carter) was a member of the KKK, he was a segregationist speaker who among other things managed to rile up a mob of white men to go after blacks in Clinton once, and he helped write George Wallace's "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" slogan. I am... deeply dubious that kind of source was really revisionist, no matter how much Eastwood may have tried to tone it down (assuming the guy whose brain was so broken by Obama he lectured a chair about it tried to tone it down). the source book was definitely not revisionist**, but the film itself is absolutely considered a classic example of the genre, full-stop, and i can post some scholarly material dissecting it if i can find the articles i read once upon a time assuming that it must be necessarily otherwise would be like assuming verhoeven couldn't be attacking what he perceived as dystopian in his starship troopers movie, because the book obviously took a very pro-heinlein's vision stance on things e: **actually, after looking up the book myself i'm seeing arguments that the book may also surprisingly be in the revisionist genre! tho i know much less about the original book myself "The carefully constructed mask of Forrest Carter -- Cherokee cowboy, self-taught writer and spokesman for Native Americans -- was simply the last fantasy of a man [real name: Asa Carter, who in the past had been a profoundly anti-semetic KKK supporter and homegrown terrorist] who reinvented himself again and again in the 30 years that preceded his death in 1979... who had eventually transformed himself into a new-age wise man for the greening of America" "Mr. Friedenberg said he found it perplexing and almost impossible to understand Mr. Carter's motives and literary ambitions. Although Mr. Carter, who wrote four books, failed to address the issue of his bigotry publicly, Mr. Friedenberg said he believed that "his apology was in his literature." For example, he said, the handful of Blacks and Jews in his books are depicted sympathetically. "The bad guys are almost, without fail, rich whites, politicians and phony preachers," Mr. Friedenberg said" "Friedenberg stated: "Here was this guy, who did bad things, disappeared off the face of the earth in Alabama, where he was a Ku Kluxer, and reappeared in the Oklahoma-Texas area near the Cherokee reservation of the western Cherokee nation, where he proceeded to write several books. It strikes me he spent his literary life, and whoever he was in his second phase, in some kind of grand apology for his first life."" hard counter has a new favorite as of 22:32 on May 12, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 21:54
|
|
|
Asterite34 posted:...good point,
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 21:54
|
|
|
Eastwood is pretty out and out racist even with the chair stuff ignored. I’m wouldn’t be surprised he would be into lost cause stuff because even historical lost cause not only dominated popular history it dominated scholarly works for a lot longer than you would think. The fact people used Confederacy as an attack on America as a whole shouldn’t be surprising as Confederacy worship and general anger at America are kind of a perfect circle but for the wrong reason
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 22:23
|
|
|
quote:Phylodox posted: Sarcopenia posted:Lmao, thread tittle please The thread what?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 22:43
|
|
|
the more i'm looking up asa carter's literary materials, the more it seems like his writing later in life went in a completely different direction from his actual earlier life like, one of the other movies based on his writings, the education of little tree, was nominated for a humanitas prize, that's an award given to works in recognition of their contributions in promoting general human dignity, understanding and the elevation of progressive values; oprah used to have the source book itself on her recommended reading list before details of carter's earlier life came to be widely known
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 22:46
|
|
|
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cdc-gay-to-smoke/
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 22:47
|
|
|
I was going to say my satire radar was going off like crazy. They almost completely sell it as real but something was off. I'm not sure what.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 23:25
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Eastwood is pretty out and out racist even with the chair stuff ignored. I’m wouldn’t be surprised he would be into lost cause stuff because even historical lost cause not only dominated popular history it dominated scholarly works for a lot longer than you would think. Eastwood is a loving awful person. Take his relationship with Sondra Locke where (according to her) he talked her into multiple abortions and then getting a tubal ligation (while he was having an affair with another woman that resulted in children.) Also when they separated he waited until she was out of town filming and dumped all her stuff in storage, changed the locks on their house and posted a security guard outside. Then Locke had a contract with Warner Bros but discovered that Eastwood was the one fronting the money for it on the condition that they reject all her projects.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 23:47
|
|
|
A while back, but re: Cartman from South Park. He is directly analogous to Barney from How I met Your Mother. The character that gets to do/say all the outrageous "funny" stuff because they are a huge unrepentant arsehole. But then actual arseholes in real life resonated with the character, and made them the breakout popular star of the show. So the creators capitalized on this and made more and more episodes about them and them doing horrendous poo poo, which just made them more popular. To the point where the creators can't even claim that they are criticizing the behaviour of the character anymore. It's just "Yeah, people like it when Cartman says he hates jews, so we put more of that poo poo in our show." or "Yeah, we get more positive feedback the more times Barney date rapes women, and then says something hateful. So we wrote more of those jokes."
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 07:34
|
|
|
thepopmonster posted:The thread what?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 07:38
|
|
|
Topic is from a few pages back, but my friend and i thought we'd introduce ourselves to some fun classics we missed as a kids. It was going great and eventually we started Weird Science and... wow. She pointed something out that stuck with me - this is assault. Actual assault. Whether it's for a movie or not we are watching an actual adult stick their tongue repeatedly into the mouth of an underage person. That is actually what we are seeing. And it goes on and on from multiple angles meaning many retakes. We stopped at around the 1/3 point. Also, underage kids in thongs.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 08:53
|
|
|
BrigadierSensible posted:A while back, but re: Cartman from South Park. I stopped watching South Park a literal decade ago-- as far as I'm concerned "You're getting old" is the series finale and everything after is fundamentally a spin-off-- but did Parker/Stone and their crew ever head-on acknowledge or take any responsibility for their cultural influence? I know they did a weak mea culpa for making GBS threads on Al Gore and "Manbearpig" in 2003, doing actual damage to Climate Change discourse, but have they ever copped to building their empire on the back of irl Cartmen? Or is that still a taboo too far?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 10:59
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:I stopped watching South Park a literal decade ago-- as far as I'm concerned "You're getting old" is the series finale and everything after is fundamentally a spin-off-- but did Parker/Stone and their crew ever head-on acknowledge or take any responsibility for their cultural influence? I think I'm probably repeating myself from earlier in the thread, but the answer is basically "Yes and No". They seem like they are trying to be better, but are also so entrenched in the whole "caring is lame" mindset that every once in a while they feel the need to sabotage themselves. I don't think you can call their recent Manbearpig episode a "weak" mea culpa though. I can't really imagine a more severe apology other than having them literally pause the episode and show up onscreen saying "Do you get it yet? We were wrong about climate change and we're sorry even though we realize the damage has already been done, so again, sorry"
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 13:23
|
|
|
BrigadierSensible posted:A while back, but re: Cartman from South Park. Yeah that’s the weird thing with Barney, they clearly consciously decided to make him more rapey as the show went on. If you watch the first couple of seasons of HIMYM, the character is more of a nerd who clearly talks a much bigger game with the ladies than he actually has. At some point the writers room said “hey you know what be funnier than a pathetic horndog always trying to get laid? An actual rapist!” Fans of the show (myself sadly included for a while) try to hand waive the worst of his behavior as a result of Teds unreliable narration. Like that somehow makes up for the fact the show expects us to find stuff like Barney pretending to be the husband of women waking up from a coma funny.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 13:39
|
|
|
letthereberock posted:Yeah that’s the weird thing with Barney, they clearly consciously decided to make him more rapey as the show went on. If you watch the first couple of seasons of HIMYM, the character is more of a nerd who clearly talks a much bigger game with the ladies than he actually has. At some point the writers room said “hey you know what be funnier than a pathetic horndog always trying to get laid? An actual rapist!” This seems like a common deal with that character type, Quagmire from Family Guy comes to mind. (though he might have been awful from the start) Like how most sitcom characters end up becoming parodies of themselves, the horndog becomes a full on rapist because they used him for every sex joke they could think of.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 13:45
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:This seems like a common deal with that character type, Quagmire from Family Guy comes to mind. (though he might have been awful from the start) Like how most sitcom characters end up becoming parodies of themselves, the horndog becomes a full on rapist because they used him for every sex joke they could think of. Quagmire was definitely that bad the whole time, at least as far as where the jokes went, although they probably went for the well more often later. For some reason the network that had Family Guy where I lived growing up only ever showed the first couple, pre-initial-cancellation seasons, so I saw that a lot. I will say that the exception to the rule is probably The Todd from Scrubs. He basically kept the joke of weird sexual one-liners and high-fives the whole way through; the way they actually changed it up was by having him come out as bisexual, which only changed him by giving him a whole other sex to hit on. Cleretic has a new favorite as of 13:53 on May 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 13:51
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:Quagmire was definitely that bad the whole time, at least as far as where the jokes went, although they probably went for the well more often later. For some reason the network that had Family Guy where I lived growing up only ever showed the first couple, pre-initial-cancellation seasons, so I saw that a lot. I haven’t watched a lot of Family Guy (was never a fan) but I distinctly remember a gag from the early years where something happens that knocks down one of the walls of Quagmires house, and a bunch of terrified, half-naked women immediately run out and flee. This was the early aughts I think, a time when I was at my most edge lord-ish, and even at the time I remember thinking that was truly hosed up.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 14:26
|
|
|
hard counter posted:the more i'm looking up asa carter's literary materials, the more it seems like his writing later in life went in a completely different direction from his actual earlier life Asa Carter is an insane story. It's hard to take any simple lesson or message from it: a hardcore old school bigot wrote these progressive enlightened works. You could try and detect some sort of trick or hidden message in there, but it seems like he actually changed.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 14:29
|
|
|
Quagmire and Barney are probably both bad, but they are also different. HIMYM was more or less the kind of sitcom where you're supposed to be okay with all of the main characters, one of whom was Barney. You're supposed to be able to root for them despite their humorous flaws. FG (at least when I was watching it) was more in the Simpsons mold where you are almost exclusively laughing at the characters and not with them, and they must only be as likable as they need to be to keep the show from feeling cruel. And really they took it further, closer to South Park levels, and possibly past it actually -- but they're all in sort of the same satirical genre which changes how you're supposed to relate to the characters. Anyway, all that is to say, Quagmire definitely seems to have been intended to be a sexual predator all along, and not someone to root for, which was used as a basis for "edgy" comedy which largely has not aged well because of a broader awareness of the issue. So again, I think they are both bad, but for different reasons.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 14:55
|
|
|
I think Quagmire started off as a ladies man/swinger type, as I think his early stuff was just parties and hitting on everyone. It quickly evolved to him being a pervert in various ways and then into a full on rapist, certainly by the time the show was revived from cancellation. The previously mentioned joke with all the Asian women escaping from his house (With him mentioning their tagged like pets) I’m pretty sure is from Airport ‘07 in season 5, and it’s around the same time they began with plenty of jokes about how his house had exaggerated machines that would automatically drug women and hold them down and whatnot, which they’ve repeatedly gone back to over the years (For example, the Valentine’s Day episode when he’s turned into a woman).
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 15:07
|
|
|
letthereberock posted:
Yea I was definitely on the “all of the shows flaws are intentional because of the unreliable narrator” bandwagon back when. I haven’t rewatched the show since it was on, but I’ve seen a bunch of clips that make me go, “oh no”. Aside from the problematic material (and more than just Barney, the yellow face episode...)it also had the mystery box problem where the longer it went on, the more stretched thin the premise went. Should have had like half as many seasons.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 15:07
|
|
|
fartknocker posted:I think Quagmire started off as a ladies man/swinger type, as I think his early stuff was just parties and hitting on everyone. It quickly evolved to him being a pervert in various ways and then into a full on rapist, certainly by the time the show was revived from cancellation. The previously mentioned joke with all the Asian women escaping from his house (With him mentioning their tagged like pets) I’m pretty sure is from Airport ‘07 in season 5, and it’s around the same time they began with plenty of jokes about how his house had exaggerated machines that would automatically drug women and hold them down and whatnot, which they’ve repeatedly gone back to over the years (For example, the Valentine’s Day episode when he’s turned into a woman). I believe there is an episode where it ends with Meg talking about getting revenge on a classmate and it ends with her opening the door to Quamire. Which isn’t exactly laughing at him I don’t think
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 15:48
|
|
|
fartknocker posted:I think Quagmire started off as a ladies man/swinger type, as I think his early stuff was just parties and hitting on everyone. It quickly evolved to him being a pervert in various ways and then into a full on rapist, certainly by the time the show was revived from cancellation. The previously mentioned joke with all the Asian women escaping from his house (With him mentioning their tagged like pets) I’m pretty sure is from Airport ‘07 in season 5, and it’s around the same time they began with plenty of jokes about how his house had exaggerated machines that would automatically drug women and hold them down and whatnot, which they’ve repeatedly gone back to over the years (For example, the Valentine’s Day episode when he’s turned into a woman). I mean, even in the first season or two there was a bit where Quagmire opens a bathroom stall door, sees a tied up and gagged cheerleader, and goes "Dear Diary: Jackpot  "Dude was always rapey
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 15:56
|
|
|
Pop Culture Detective had a decent YouTube video on this topic, including Barney as an example.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
I thought Quagmire was supposed to be a parody of the sitcom ladies' man type of character, but the humor came from his rapey behavior being more out in the open and all the characters in the show were still just like "Oh, you!"
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:26
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:I believe there is an episode where it ends with Meg talking about getting revenge on a classmate and it ends with her opening the door to Quamire. So, Meg used Quagmire to rape one of her classmates? That's hosed up. All I really know of the show is that there was some drama where the show had a fake Simpsons ad popup on the bottom of the screen and Quagmire dragged Marge off and raped her.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:32
|
|
|
PizzaProwler posted:I thought Quagmire was supposed to be a parody of the sitcom ladies' man type of character, but the humor came from his rapey behavior being more out in the open and all the characters in the show were still just like "Oh, you!" And then they began writing Quagmire as an upstanding citizen because he sometimes volunteer at the soup kitchen.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:36
|
|
|
Perhaps Quagmire is a man of contrasts
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:37
|
|
|
Do you think South Park played a role in the resurgence of antisemitism 2012-2016, specifically among irony-poisoned 4chan posters who would have been in elementary school when South Park was just getting started? There are definitely other factors to consider, but it's always been striking to me how it went from what seemed like an archaic prejudice to something a certain set loved to giggle about, and I have to wonder if the foundation for "ironic" racism and the enjoyment of calling people jews as an insult was laid by that loving cartoon. At the time South Park was new, I thought part of the joke of Cartman's antisemitism was that it was so old-fashioned, but I may have been sheltered as a child.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
South Park embodied the post-racism of the early millennium. Everything's fine, we're all comfortable and bored, it's a Daria world where we can all sit back and make snarky comments without repercussion because nothing matters because everything's fine. "It's okay to insult Jews and use the n-word because real racism is over! Why yes, were are wealthy straight white males, why do you ask!" EDIT: and checking google shows Daria debuted the same year as South Park. Megillah Gorilla has a new favorite as of 16:55 on May 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:52
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:Do you think South Park played a role in the resurgence of antisemitism 2012-2016, specifically among irony-poisoned 4chan posters who would have been in elementary school when South Park was just getting started? There are definitely other factors to consider, but it's always been striking to me how it went from what seemed like an archaic prejudice to something a certain set loved to giggle about, and I have to wonder if the foundation for "ironic" racism and the enjoyment of calling people jews as an insult was laid by that loving cartoon. At the time South Park was new, I thought part of the joke of Cartman's antisemitism was that it was so old-fashioned, but I may have been sheltered as a child. For a long time I would see goons talking about their own journeys say something like “before I saw South Park it never even occurred to me that hating Jews was a thing, but once I saw Cartman doing it I thought it was funny so I started doing it ironically.” I would always roll my eyes at this, because COME ON...but I’ve seen the same sentiment repeated enough times that I have to accept there’s something to it, as baffling as it seems to me.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:52
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:Do you think South Park played a role in the resurgence of antisemitism 2012-2016, specifically among irony-poisoned 4chan posters who would have been in elementary school when South Park was just getting started? There are definitely other factors to consider, but it's always been striking to me how it went from what seemed like an archaic prejudice to something a certain set loved to giggle about, and I have to wonder if the foundation for "ironic" racism and the enjoyment of calling people jews as an insult was laid by that loving cartoon. At the time South Park was new, I thought part of the joke of Cartman's antisemitism was that it was so old-fashioned, but I may have been sheltered as a child. Yes.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
Why is South Park still going?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 17:27
|
|
|
I will never hear "Come Sail Away" by Styx and not mentally substitute the vocals with the Cartman version from the Chef Aid album, Trey Parker sang his guts out on that one (also Nowhere to Run/Vapor Trail and Brad Logan were loving bangers)
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 17:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 08:14 |
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Why is South Park still going? Matt and Trey get paid a poo poo ton of money to put out 10~ episodes a year that they work on for all of a week each. AFAIK, it still does good ratings on Comedy Central, it’s one of the few original shows they still do, and definitely the oldest (Except maybe The Daily Show?), so it’ll probably continue as long as Matt and Trey feel like it.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 17:35
|
|