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gotta see the final pages first i wanted to know the exact dimensions of hell
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May 16, 2021 20:43
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People are naturally inquisitive and want to make sense of things that don't make sense to them. I think it's fine, the theorizing isn't hurting anyone.
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May 16, 2021 20:48
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Eh, you mean well but I do think accepting and normalizing the levels of paranoia seen in this thread and by extension the equivocation of "I didn't like this" with "this is incorrect, wrong, possibly criminal" absolutely is hurting media literacy and discourse in a broader sense.
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May 16, 2021 21:06
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A good trainwreck can be a lot of fun, and the theorizing about Isayama sabotaging his ending is pretty entertaining. I gave the High School spinoff a try, Mikasa constantly acknowledging that Eren is an idiot rear end in a top hat and being embarrassed for him is hilarious. Not sure I'll read the whole thing but I enjoy their dynamic a lot in this.
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May 16, 2021 21:13
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Paper Lion posted:the copium levels in this thread are off the chart. why is it so hard to accept that this thing you liked ended poorly, take the L and move on? its a piece of art, not your whole identity
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May 16, 2021 21:19
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bees x1000 posted:gotta see the final pages first Sounds simple. LordMune posted:Eh, you mean well but I do think accepting and normalizing the levels of paranoia seen in this thread and by extension the equivocation of "I didn't like this" with "this is incorrect, wrong, possibly criminal" absolutely is hurting media literacy and discourse in a broader sense. When a manga crashes and burns in one chapter, making mistakes that the author explicitly called out in interviews, then adds an additional eight pages that undermine a lot of things that the people who liked the ending like, then the author adds pages where one of the characters yells about how bad the ending is, I don't think it's paranoia to assume something odd is going on.
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May 16, 2021 21:27
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Could be Isayama just had a breakdown over the pressure and it came out as whatever this ending was. Or this was always the ending. Who knows. Its bad and thats all that matters to me. I dont think its been fiddled with. If that was the case it would have happened much earlier and been more apparent.
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May 16, 2021 21:31
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chiasaur11 posted:Sounds simple. Not having read the additional pages, Occam's razor would dictate that the author is aware that he wrote himself into a bad ending. The idea that his editors would let him set the exact day and date for the end of his absurdly popular manga, only to freak out at the last second and force him to write a deliberately-bad ending that is somehow still consistent with what came before (especially considering the limited window he had given himself) — it seems nonsensical.
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May 16, 2021 21:37
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LordMune posted:Eh, you mean well but I do think accepting and normalizing the levels of paranoia seen in this thread and by extension the equivocation of "I didn't like this" with "this is incorrect, wrong, possibly criminal" absolutely is hurting media literacy and discourse in a broader sense. I think you're exaggerating what's going on in this thread. Paranoia implies a level of conspiracy theorizing that is absolutely not happening here. "Company wants to make money and so interferes with artist's story" is something that happens all the time in the entertainment industry, and it's completely reasonable to assume it happened here. It's always ridiculous when nerds get up in arms about "the SJWs" infecting an artist's pure vision, for instance, because no artistic work attached to a company survives the creative process unchanged from the original vision. I think where the theorizing is going wrong is treating it as if it's something new. Editorial has always had some say in what's happened I don't doubt, to varying degrees, the best example of this being how Isayama openly admitted to putting off Sasha's fate due to the reaction of his editor to it. In that case it was pretty benign and I think made the manga better with how much Sasha's fate was felt in the post timeskip chapters. Her getting killed by some random titan with no one else around would not have had the same effect. Personally I don't like theorizing about this kind of thing because I think it's pretty useless, but coming into this thread and assigning a value judgement to what's going on here is pretty silly.
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May 16, 2021 21:50
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LordMune posted:Not having read the additional pages, Occam's razor would dictate that the author is aware that he wrote himself into a bad ending. The idea that his editors would let him set the exact day and date for the end of his absurdly popular manga, only to freak out at the last second and force him to write a deliberately-bad ending that is somehow still consistent with what came before (especially considering the limited window he had given himself) — it seems nonsensical. I mean, Isayama showed the final panel years ago, then has it be a dashed off bit that's barely in the final chapter. Isayama talked for years about disliking Mikasa and Eren as a pairing, he shows the battleship Mikasa sinking in 130-131, then they're suddenly fated lovers in the last chapter. I think that, to an extent, this is the same give and take that's been going on this whole time. Editorial has things they want to include or avoid, they talk to Isayama, things get worked out so that everyone's satisfied enough. I suspect that the problem is that an earlier planned ending pivoted around Eren getting together with Historia, and Mikasa moving on. Then negotiations started, with a lot of give and take talk about how to have that work without alienating the audience and causing mass protest. And, in the end, diplomacy failed. Again.
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May 16, 2021 23:02
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Normalize paranoia of corporate interests tbh
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May 16, 2021 23:02
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LordMune posted:This is not what happens though. Armin remembers after Eren's death but the conversation happens before then, in the middle of an ongoing global genocide. Why is Armin putting him at ease? Because Eren explains how the power of the titans transcends time, and from his perspective his death is imminent and inevitable. And not just physically - he's having trouble holding onto his sense of self as his consciousness is spread thin across time and space through the paths.
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May 16, 2021 23:55
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Paper Lion posted:the copium levels in this thread are off the chart. why is it so hard to accept that this thing you liked ended poorly, take the L and move on? its a piece of art, not your whole identity Yeah, can't believe all of these calm hitlers kramering in to do sealioning
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May 17, 2021 00:27
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Conspiratiorist posted:You people keep talking about the ending canonizing Eren x Mikasa, but to me and in full context it just looks like Eren had never truly been romantically interested in her as such, yet despite not reciprocating those feelings deep down he still wanted to monopolize her affection. A day late but the Ymir/Mikasa connection makes more sense when viewed this way. I couldn't shake off the feeling since reading the first leak that "Ymir loved Fritz" was less about either of them and more about highlighting just how bad Eren and Mikasa's relationship was. This both explains that and Eren's rant fairly well. Like they're still questionable decisions that weren't very well executed in a chapter full of those but at least it makes sense.
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May 17, 2021 00:45
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Ah-ha, yes! After a month of the back of my mind working on it, I've finally remembered where I've felt this feeling the ending gave, before. That weird sense of everything accelerating and then getting completely derailed... The explanation for weird things being paths/altering timelines and altering fate... The feeling that the ending was so rushed and tried to resolve everything by blowing it up and then duct taping it together kind of okay but definitely not while you stand there and  ...The perplexing plot points that almost no one would believe when reading them behind spoiler tags... 
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May 17, 2021 03:20
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Escaflowne was a cool and pretty movie with yet another grossly underwhelming finale. I can hardly remember the TV series. I honestly hardly remember any of it. Just that the suit designs were very cool mechanically to look at.
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May 17, 2021 17:34
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I dont think anybody here is paranoid or anything Is just that we liked the manga and than the last chapter was so bad it is really puzzling Besides, personally Im having way more fun with all the over analyzing and trashing of the chapter here than I got with the chapter itself
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May 17, 2021 17:54
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Catalina posted:Oh...oh God. What if it forms a stable time loop where AoT Eren keeps trying to end the Titans, because the world is so horrible, and then AU High School Eren keeps trying to start the Titans because the world is so boring?  
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May 17, 2021 18:18
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I never actually finished Escaflowne so I just have amazing memories of the first few episodes and the opening clip Yutaka Nakamura animated from the movie.
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May 17, 2021 18:33
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Westerners who started the Escaflowne TV series but never finished is a tragedy in it's own right. The final plot revelation at the story climax is just pure if you've had a Western educational upbringing: Van and Hitomi stop Emperor Isaac Newton in his misguided plans of using a destinty-control machine for its intended purpose: making everyone's dream come true. How did it get to there? I'll...attempt to explain. I think it's been about 18 years since I saw the series, so I'm relying off plot summaries online. Originally, the series was scheduled to be 36 episodes, but they had to cut it down to 24. They had a lot of planned out stories and plot points, which lead to a lot of things being crammed together, especially in the last two episodes. In the series, there are also quite a few places where there are hints of dropped plot threads, like Hitomi finding an Earth CD at a market. I think they ended up putting a lot of the cut content on a game for Playstation 1, as well as being in guidebooks and stuff. There's a very cool animated cutscene of Van and Merle flying around Tokyo in the dragon mech and the Japanese airforce trying to figure out WTF is going on, for instance. Anyway, the plot revelations the end of the series has are: The evil emperor Dornkirk is actually Isaac Newton, who got transported to Gaea (the planet the series is set in) on his deathbed. Isaac Newton Dornkirk used his knowledge of the math and science from the Renaissance era to try and advance technology. He also was looking for the secret of Atlantis. The secret of Atlantis is that when it was destroyed, the Atlantians used their powers to create Gaea and transport themselves there. Atlantians on Gaea are the hated racial minority winged people that Van's mother came from. I'm so unclear on this part, but I think it's that Allen's father was always absent because he was looking for the secret of Atlantis, and when he found it, he refused to tell Emperor Allen's long-lost sister is actually Dilandu, the silver haired psychopathic killer from Dornkirk's empire that the heroes are constantly at odds with. Well, it seems that - Isaac Newton continued his work with the 17th century belief that if you found the source and behavior of matter, you will find the answer to destiny. Eventually, he created a destiny alternating machine, and through loving around with it, they ended up changing Allen's sister's destiny to being a male super-soldier for the empire. Anyway, back to the destiny alternating machine. It's key to Emperor Dornkirk's plan, which is to make the world a better place by giving people the power to change destiny into what they desire? [Citation needed, it's been 18 years] However, when given what they desire, all the kingdoms start wanting to beat the poo poo out of each other and claim the entire territory for them to rule. Whoops. Hitomi is also relevant to the plot because she has a natural ability in whatever fortune telling and fate altering actually is, when Dornkirk is trying to re-create it through scientific means, with quite a bit of sucess. In contrast to Dornkirk, when she's confronted with causing pain and suffering through her altering the future with her desires, she pulls back. Dornkirk basically things no sacrifice is too great, since the end goal is to create a perfect world. So anyway, back to everyone being in a giant superwar, and...God, I forget what happens here, too, but somehow...Van and Allen snap out of their Fate-Altering everybody fight for territory mindset. Which leads to this fantastic scene of Allen: Van! Stop fighting Dilandu! He's my sister! Van: WTF, bro!? Then next, Van ends up teleportation to where Hitomi is with Isaac Newton, and they end up stopping his Fate-Altering machine? And Emperor Dornkirk tells his life story and motivations to them and then he dies? Anyway, the series ends with Hitomi going back to earth, and it being really ambiguous on whether she can come back to Gaea or not (I think leaning on "no"). The last scene is one of her female classmates asking her to tell her fortune, and Hitomi, who will probably need years of therapy after being in a world where using tarot cards can literally cause thousands to die and civilizations to rise and collapse, saying, "sorry, I've given up fortune telling!" with a smile. It's completely batshit, and fantastic, but the longer you think about it, the more you get this sense of how much work they put into creating the world, and how much research they did. It's completely true that only recently-speaking, Western scientific tradation was separated from a lot from things like occultism, alchemy, astrology, etc., which were legitimate theories at the time.
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May 17, 2021 22:21
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So does he actually hate Korean people or nah
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May 18, 2021 04:10
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The "proof" was tabloid level nothing so who knows!
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May 18, 2021 04:20
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drat now I really want to rewatch Escaflowne. Anyways I just finished this and I really liked it for the most part (it was definitely better than GOT which I keep seeing it compared to). Though, like most manga it's alergic to the "falling action" section of the 3-act structure and instead tries to wrap up the entire series in a single chapter. I'm guessing you get booted out the door by management the nanosecond your manga doesn't have people punching things anymore. I'm really hoping things get expanded in the anime. Also this series is... odd philosophically. Not bad necessarily but certainly very weird. Honestly, I'm going to be mulling over how I feel about this one for a while.
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May 18, 2021 06:28
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Escaflowne is one of those series where Gravity is thematically linked to Destiny. (Objects, people and events "attracting" each other) and it's pretty cool that the bad guy rambling about fate turns out to be Isaac Newton, in that context.
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May 18, 2021 15:08
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Looks like the lesson at the end is that 80% is NOT enough
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May 18, 2021 17:57
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What a loving waste this story was.
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May 18, 2021 18:16
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readingatwork posted:drat now I really want to rewatch Escaflowne. 
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May 18, 2021 18:20
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in the extra pages, why is king fritz stabbed, I thought he survived that and had his daughters eat ymir
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May 18, 2021 18:48
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Where are you guys reading that?
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May 18, 2021 18:59
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The World Inferno posted:in the extra pages, why is king fritz stabbed, I thought he survived that and had his daughters eat ymir Presumably, it’s because Mikasa's consciousness is connected to Paths, so in the timeline where the Titans ended, her seeing into Mikasa’s head allowed her to figure out a mindset where she could let her own toxic attachment to a person. The headaches that Mikasa and other Ackermans had seem to be Ymir Fritz being able to look into their minds through Paths. The next is just my speculation, but presumably the Ackermans being the results of Titan experimentation on humans gave them a lot of characteristics of Ymir Fritz, as well as some connection. Catalina fucked around with this message at 19:41 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 19:37
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well none of the characterization problems were adressed but at least people in the post apocalypse will be miserable. and i mean that unironically
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May 18, 2021 19:54
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Depths posted:Looks like the lesson at the end is that 80% is NOT enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VjPM5CeWs Seriously. What the gently caress is the moral of this story. What am I supposed to take away from it? Remember when Zeke realized life was worth living and that his plan was bad, only for it to turn out that his plan would have led to roughly the same outcome without hundreds of millions dead? Good times.
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May 18, 2021 20:33
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lmao that's great.
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May 18, 2021 20:56
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It's wild that there are so few manga/anime with good endings. A lot of the series I watched and really enjoyed leave things open ended because they never actually finished their source material (Houseki no Kuni as an example) so they're great but also not a complete story, at best a character arc. It could be the serialized nature of the format, the schedule, editorial pushing to continue hit series despite the creator's original aims, or just that they readingatwork posted:get booted out the door by management the nanosecond your manga doesn't have people punching things anymore. Of course there are always your monumental fuckups in adaptions that go wrong, but it seems like when anime sticks to the source material you rarely get something that's fulfilling in the final chapter.
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May 18, 2021 21:01
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Elias_Maluco posted:Where are you guys reading that? https://onepiecechapters.com/manga/attack-on-titan-chapter-139-vol-pages/
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May 18, 2021 21:02
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Ccs posted:It's wild that there are so few manga/anime with good endings. A lot of the series I watched and really enjoyed leave things open ended because they never actually finished their source material (Houseki no Kuni as an example) so they're great but also not a complete story, at best a character arc. It's like TV honestly, way more bad endings than good endings and manga writers get a lot less time and fewer resources to determine the most fitting ending.
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May 18, 2021 21:11
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Thank you
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May 18, 2021 21:12
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I like how the tree’s transformation implies that Eren literally had brainworms. 
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May 18, 2021 21:17
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It seems hard to nail the ending in a serialized piece of media. You might have an idea at the start but when the time comes its been ten years and nothing is lining up just right anymore.
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May 18, 2021 21:20
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Nah, that was significantly better with the added pages. The overarching message of the story appears to be that the cycle of violence cannot really be broken, and all one can do is live their best life and not try to 11th dimensional chess plans on the effects of their actions lifetimes into the future. It doesn't matter if Eren kills only 80% or 99% of humanity because even if only the people of Paradis are left then they'll still find a way to fight and kill each other. This goes all the way back to Pixis on the wall early on, talking about how even trapped in the walls human have failed to put aside their differences. The Titans are just a metaphor for the basic human drives of violence and genocide, in that they are never truly wiped out and no amount of effort will ever completely remove that curse. Hence the tree growing back in the last panel, showing that as time passes the lessons of history will be forgotten and we'll continue the old cycles. I think people might not like the message being: "People are poo poo and cannot change." But he does appear to nail it with those last panels. EDIT: It also hammers home that Eren WAS wrong. What he did was monstrous and also pointless, because his actions did not cure humanity of the cycle of violence OR the titans in the end.
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May 18, 2021 21:50
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