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FuturePastNow posted:I think all they did was type airspace violated into google images and grab the first result I think for text only wire stuff that’s algorithmic.
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May 19, 2021 03:09
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Carth Dookie posted:
Yep that about sums up my reaction. Jesus.
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May 19, 2021 03:13
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Reading about old-timey surgery is bad enough without it being from the fuckin first person perspective of the
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May 19, 2021 03:24
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I mean poo poo, was this before ether or laudanam? Or whiskey? Being blind drunk couldn't possibly have made the situation much worse. edit: This was done in 1811, so no ether yet, but Laudanam/opiates might have been possible. Just shoot me in the head with a blunderbuss instead, thanks. Carth Dookie fucked around with this message at 03:29 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 03:26
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So this is vaguely Cold War-ish, but the devs at War Thunder have been busy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIlXOyv0_oU
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May 19, 2021 05:58
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Robert Liston was a famous 19th century surgeon who was commonly considered to be the fastest amputator in the world. There's a story, it sounds apocryphal but I've seen it cited many times so maybe it really happened, that he once whipped off an arm in 30 seconds, but he accidentally sawed off his assistant's fingers in the process. The assistant is alleged to have died of sepsis from that injury, the patient himself also died, and a witness to the procedure is alleged to have "died of shock" during the procedure. So 300% fatality rate for that particular operation.
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May 19, 2021 16:21
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Triple kill
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May 19, 2021 16:58
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zoux posted:Robert Liston was a famous 19th century surgeon who was commonly considered to be the fastest amputator in the world. There's a story, it sounds apocryphal but I've seen it cited many times so maybe it really happened, that he once whipped off an arm in 30 seconds, but he accidentally sawed off his assistant's fingers in the process. The assistant is alleged to have died of sepsis from that injury, the patient himself also died, and a witness to the procedure is alleged to have "died of shock" during the procedure. So 300% fatality rate for that particular operation. Supposedly, the witness fainted when Liston cut off his coattails and the guy thought he'd gotten stuck by Liston's saw, and he was later found to have died of shock. Another report said that Liston once amputated a leg in 2 and a half minutes, and also took off the patient's testicles in the process. "Fastest Knife in the West End" indeed.
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May 19, 2021 18:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY4N5NOAsH0
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May 19, 2021 19:21
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Jeez guy it’s not a race!!
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May 19, 2021 19:26
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priznat posted:Jeez guy it’s not a race!!
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May 19, 2021 20:11
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Why didn't they simply use a katana to instantly sever the offending limb? (After Perry's expedition of course.)
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May 19, 2021 20:13
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Carth Dookie posted:I mean poo poo, was this before ether or laudanam? Or whiskey? Being blind drunk couldn't possibly have made the situation much worse. Laudanum was definitely around during the Napoleonic wars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_English_Opium-Eater
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May 19, 2021 23:51
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The alcohol consumption of early 19th century Britain was astonishing. Cirrhosis of the liver wasn't connected to alcohol consumption until 1793, and you can imagine how well that public health news went over. When the British army liberated Coruna in 1809, one soldier reportedly drowned in wine.
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May 20, 2021 00:11
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zoux posted:Why didn't they simply use a katana to instantly sever the offending limb? (After Perry's expedition of course.) Oh man, jokes aside have you ever seen a diagram of the multiple cuts actually involved in a limb amputation? It's super gross.
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May 20, 2021 01:14
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Wonder what they did with the femoral artery while amputating legs. I'm def not looking it up tho.
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May 20, 2021 02:04
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aphid_licker posted:Wonder what they did with the femoral artery while amputating legs. I'm def not looking it up tho. Tourniquet. Leg's coming off anyway.
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May 20, 2021 02:47
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Ah, duh. Yeah okay I should've guessed that, that's not quite as bad as I was afraid, I thought the doc would be tying a knot in it or something horrid.
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May 20, 2021 07:16
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aphid_licker posted:Ah, duh. Yeah okay I should've guessed that, that's not quite as bad as I was afraid, I thought the doc would be tying a knot in it or something horrid. I don't know how they did it back then, but long term, yeah, you need to tie off the major vessels. Cauterization is an option, but for the really big poo poo you're probably going to be using a suture. Amputation isn't just about making a clean cut through the limb, there's a lot of considerations like leaving a skin flap that can be sewn over the stump, etc. Not a doctor so I don't know the details, but it's not as simple an operation as just cutting through meat and bone.
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May 20, 2021 12:43
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The history of combat medicine is a fascinating subject, incidentally. I know a doctor who collects old medical texts on the subject (he's got a couple original publications dating form the ACW era in both the US and Europe) and it's really interesting to see techniques and knowledge advance (e.g. the changes that come in once germ theory is widely accepted) as well as how they adapt to new weapons developments (*e.g. the switch over from black powder to smokeless and the attendant changes in the size, composition, and speed of projectiles) and the kinds of injuries they create.
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May 20, 2021 12:47
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I saw this docu of guys digging up dead guys around a Nazi field hospital and the guy pointed out that in one dude they had bothered to round off the edges of the sawed through femur with a file to make it behave better when you're hobbling around on it with your prosthesis.
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May 20, 2021 13:42
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Cyrano4747 posted:I don't know how they did it back then, but long term, yeah, you need to tie off the major vessels. Cauterization is an option, but for the really big poo poo you're probably going to be using a suture. I think Liston was in the era of ligating the vessels, but before the aseptic ligature. The procedure would have been to apply a tourniquet above the site and ligate the vessels as they were encountered. A tail of the ligature would be left hanging from the sutured opening in the completed flap. The thread partly acted as a drain and allowed the knot to be pulled away as the tied off vessel withered. One point about Liston’s reputation is that many of these stories come from a book that’s more concerned with spectacle than strict truth. The author (Richard Gordon) was more a medical comic-novelist than historian. The 300% mortality case is just silly. As for the testicle case (if it ever happened), my suspicion - from case reports of high leg amputations at the time - is that was more likely a joint or thigh gangrene involving the genitals than a bit of a whoopsie. The reputation for ignorant surgeons getting on the job training waist deep in blood has some truth in the American Civil War and some military hospitals of the Napoleonic Wars but it’s just not true for an Edinburgh University and Royal Infirmary trained doctor of 1810 to 1830
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May 20, 2021 14:47
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aphid_licker posted:Ah, duh. Yeah okay I should've guessed that, that's not quite as bad as I was afraid, I thought the doc would be tying a knot in it or something horrid. Ambroise Paré (re)introduced ligature into Western Medicine in the 16th Century, before that the practice was to cauterize bleeding with a red-hot iron. That didn't always work. Edit: Boy, is reading up on the history of surgery fun. quote:Paré was also an important figure in the progress of obstetrics in the middle of the 16th century. He revived the practice of podalic version, and showed how even in cases of head presentation, surgeons with this operation could often deliver the infant safely, instead of having to dismember the infant and extract the infant piece by piece. Hannibal Rex fucked around with this message at 14:51 on May 20, 2021 |
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May 20, 2021 14:47
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Vindolanda posted:I think Liston was in the era of ligating the vessels, but before the aseptic ligature. The procedure would have been to apply a tourniquet above the site and ligate the vessels as they were encountered. A tail of the ligature would be left hanging from the sutured opening in the completed flap. The thread partly acted as a drain and allowed the knot to be pulled away as the tied off vessel withered. I agree that the more colorful stories are probably just that, but 19th surgery was also a profession that was finding its feet in a pretty profound way. It's the era when major surgical interventions became both more common and more survivable, and when surgeons themselves began to become viewed as real doctors. There's always been a professional divide between the people who cut and the people who prescribe (to put it crudely) that exists through today, but in the 19th century is when it was especially acute. So the reputation of ignorant surgeons being glorified butchers is itself hyperbole, but it's grounded in earlier stereotypes.
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May 20, 2021 15:27
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There's a really good chapter in The Emperor of All Maladies, a book on the history of cancer treatment, that touches on the 19th century development of surgery as both a respected discipline and as an increasingly effective intervention for illness, rather than a way to repair traumatic injury. So, conducting mastectomies to remove cancerous tissue, as opposed to performing an amputation to remove a shattered limb. The image of the surgeon as a butcher is very prominent at the beginning of the 19th century, while by the end of the same century the overriding stereotype is of the surgeon as the maestro of the operating theater. Interestingly the point Emperor makes is that this rapid rise of surgery as a respected way to tackle these issues itself had to be pushed back against later on with the rise of modern oncology. SOme of the early 20th century surgical interventions for cancer were extremely radical, with the cure being almost as bad as the disease. The earliest advocates of chemotherapy had an entrenched layer of highly respected surgeons to get through before their approach really gained traction.
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May 20, 2021 15:32
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The big break-through for barber-surgeons' esteem was in the 17th century, when Charles-François Felix successfully treated the anal fistula of the French king. He practiced on condemned prisoners for months beforehand, to develop the necessary knowledge and instruments.
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May 20, 2021 15:59
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Hannibal Rex posted:The big break-through for barber-surgeons' esteem was in the 17th century, when Charles-François Felix successfully treated the anal fistula of the French king. He practiced on condemned prisoners for months beforehand, to develop the necessary knowledge and instruments. L’assman triomphe!
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May 20, 2021 16:00
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The brilliant series The Knick, which no one saw because it was on Cinemax, is very much about the transition of surgery from butchery to science, and it's now on HBO Max. There's a great scene in it where the hospital buys its first xray device and you cringe watching everyone just take repeated xrays of themselves for fun. Highly recommended.
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May 20, 2021 16:04
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Cyrano4747 posted:I agree that the more colorful stories are probably just that, but 19th surgery was also a profession that was finding its feet in a pretty profound way. It's the era when major surgical interventions became both more common and more survivable, and when surgeons themselves began to become viewed as real doctors. There's always been a professional divide between the people who cut and the people who prescribe (to put it crudely) that exists through today, but in the 19th century is when it was especially acute. So the reputation of ignorant surgeons being glorified butchers is itself hyperbole, but it's grounded in earlier stereotypes. To be fair, nobody in any industry in the 19th century knew what they were doing (not to imply anyone knows what they're doing now either). Besides, you're generally not allowed to do blind trials for surgical procedures unless you run a POW camp and are really sure your side is going to win so a lot of procedures make sense that they'd work but have only been shown that they work better than nothing. There was a case about 20 years ago where they found out some common knee surgery doesn't work by cutting a bunch of people open and then just closing them back up and finding the results were the same as people who had the real surgery. Even with the patient's consent that they were part of a trial and might get a placebo, there was still pushback because its more invasive than a sugar pill and even with drug trials for certain things the control group still gets an actual (but different) treatment and there was argument that this should have applied here too.
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May 20, 2021 16:07
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zoux posted:The brilliant series The Knick, which no one saw because it was on Cinemax, is very much about the transition of surgery from butchery to science, and it's now on HBO Max. There's a great scene in it where the hospital buys its first xray device and you cringe watching everyone just take repeated xrays of themselves for fun. Highly recommended. "Oh hey, you're addicted to cocaine. Here, have some heroin to get sober."
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May 20, 2021 16:18
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Vindolanda posted:I think Liston was in the era of ligating the vessels, but before the aseptic ligature. The procedure would have been to apply a tourniquet above the site and ligate the vessels as they were encountered. A tail of the ligature would be left hanging from the sutured opening in the completed flap. The thread partly acted as a drain and allowed the knot to be pulled away as the tied off vessel withered. I learned all of this from Hornblower.
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May 20, 2021 16:25
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toplitzin posted:"Oh hey, you're addicted to cocaine. Here, have some heroin to get sober." I remember when something like scales fell from my eyes when I learned that heroin is called that because it's a registered brand trademark of the Bayer corporation.
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May 20, 2021 16:27
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So we’re really not gonna talk about how the USAF wants to retire the F-22 already in favor of NGAD?
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May 20, 2021 20:17
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i bet there are dozens of mexican guys working at slaughterhouses in iowa who could amputate a limb faster and cleaner than any surgeon.LtCol J. Krusinski posted:So we’re really not gonna talk about how the USAF wants to retire the F-22 already in favor of NGAD? has the F-22 ever done anything beyond intercept a few Bears and fly in exercises? I remember when it was supposed to be able to carry JDAMs and SDBs. lol
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May 20, 2021 20:18
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mlmp08 posted:Air Force chief is indicating the potential future mix of TACAIR could be: This was meant to be in my post. Quote != Edit
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May 20, 2021 20:20
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Sagebrush posted:has the F-22 ever done anything beyond intercept a few Bears and fly in exercises? It carries JDAMs and SDBs. Made the first supersonic test JDAM drop in mid-2000s, SDB in 07 or 08. First operational bombing mission wasn’t until 2014 or something in Syria. But it seems a lot of the desire to get beyond the F-22 has to do with maintenance of the skin, maintenance in general, and significantly easier upgrades on a new platform that’s not so rigid in legacy design. E: One of the F-22’s daily use limitations: no targeting pod or similar capability. It’s extremely useful to be able to look at stuff. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 20:32 on May 20, 2021 |
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May 20, 2021 20:25
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mlmp08 posted:It carries JDAMs and SDBs. Made the first supersonic test JDAM drop in mid-2000s, SDB in 07 or 08. …And in my opinion, this is the correct move. Same capability, but cheaper to sustain. Build half the combined F-22/F15 fleet; and then tick up a notch in capability and build that. While terminating the F-22 buy at 187 airframes was dumb, expecting one airframe to be the end-all-be-all for thirty+ years is equally dumb.
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May 20, 2021 20:32
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Sagebrush posted:has the F-22 ever done anything beyond intercept a few Bears and fly in exercises? I want to argue with you, but I don’t have the energy. Long story short: F-22 good (With MX caveats) Early retirement means NGAD is more revolutionary than evolutionary in all likelihood and obviously BETTER than the F-22 at the air superiority thing. That’s impressive because the F-22 is the single greatest air superiority jet put into production (Cry your YF-23 tears here, I cry them too). And it’s new. Like really new. I don’t know if it’s even been around long enough that all of the squadron commanders didn’t start out in F-22’s. I don’t think enough years have passed for anyone who came in as a 2lt and went through flight school then then got F-22’s have served long enough to be squadron commanders yet, but then again- maybe not? I could very well be wrong on that last point, but my gut says it’s right (It’s not, 2 things you don’t trust after age 40 when you are day drinking: a fart, or your gut) I want to know more about NGAD. Even just a detailed wiki article would suffice. The blackness of the program is rather impressive. Also has anyone heard anything about the LRSO competition? There’s a crazy amount of new stuff being acquired by the USAF.
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May 20, 2021 20:36
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In 2019, the Air Force reported the F-22 fleet to average a 52% mission-capable rate. Real bad! Worse than proper old jets (F-15C), worse than mature but not yet ancient programs, worse than new programs (F-35). So that does not help its case.
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May 20, 2021 20:44
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mlmp08 posted:In 2019, the Air Force reported the F-22 fleet to average a 52% mission-capable rate. Real bad! Worse than proper old jets (F-15C), worse than mature but not yet ancient programs, worse than new programs (F-35). Was that before or after that hurricane in Florida?
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May 20, 2021 20:49
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