|
zoux posted:Seems like you can't say "violent video games/movies don't cause violence" at the same time you say "cop shows are a critical part of the persistence of the American carceral state", so I assume people agree that violent video games lead to increased violence now. Either media affects behavior or it doesn't. Behavior transferrance and perception influencing behavior aren't the same thing. Actually, for this argument to hold up, the exact opposite would have to be happening. All the "good cop" shows out there should be influencing the behavior of law enforcement and we should be seeing people "turning in their badge and gun" like on this week's "Flash" to stay on the "right side of the line" left and right to protest wrong-doings. Someone's perception being influenced that "cops are good and sometimes they just have to make tough impossible decisions" isn't transferring behavior that they've seen in media to their own behavior. It's warping their perception of reality which THEN has effects on their behavior. That's distinctly different than claiming that participation in virtual violence increases the likelihood that real violence will be perpetrated by that person.
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 09:59 |
|
|
bull3964 posted:Behavior transferrance and perception influencing behavior aren't the same thing. Here's the crux of my problem, this copaganda thing is just another furtherance of the idea that the most important quality by which a piece of art must be evaluated is its ethical position. It's just as absurd as ideas that depictions of unwed motherhood on television leads to sinful promiscuity among women, or portraying homosexuality neutrally or non-negatively furthers a harmful gay agenda. It's Puritanical sanctimony, just from the other direction, and I'm exhausted by having to constantly read people talk about shows in terms of if the characters are "good or bad people". The problems with policing in America are not caused by CSI:Miami. You might as well ban the local news - as we know that massively increases a persons perception of the amount of crime and violence in the world, which probably does more to create this desire of necessarily hard-on-crime law enforcement than every cop show combined.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:31
|
|
bull3964 posted:Behavior transferrance and perception influencing behavior aren't the same thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxEFNFOVTw Innuendo Studios did a good video about this distinction. Like, violent media doesn't make people more violent; it makes them believe that violence is more prevalent than it really is. This can lead to secondary behavioral effects, such as people being more fearful of going outside.
|
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:31
|
|
|
SimonChris posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqxEFNFOVTw People who think the world is more dangerous are going to want stricter law enforcement. So violent video games, indeed any violent media, are contributing to the problem in similar ways as cop shows, if you take those arguments as valid.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
muscles like this! posted:Amazon's Wheel of Time has been renewed for a second season. (Still no idea when s1 will actual air though.) I get it, but at the same time, lol. Especially if it just tanks
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:36
|
|
|
zoux posted:Here's the crux of my problem, this copaganda thing is just another furtherance of the idea that the most important quality by which a piece of art must be evaluated is its ethical position. It's just as absurd as ideas that depictions of unwed motherhood on television leads to sinful promiscuity among women, or portraying homosexuality neutrally or non-negatively furthers a harmful gay agenda. It's Puritanical sanctimony, just from the other direction, and I'm exhausted by having to constantly read people talk about shows in terms of if the characters are "good or bad people". The problems with policing in America are not caused by CSI:Miami. You might as well ban the local news - as we know that massively increases a persons perception of the amount of crime and violence in the world, which probably does more to create this desire of necessarily hard-on-crime law enforcement than every cop show combined. Jesus loving Christ.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:46
|
|
|
zoux posted:People who think the world is more dangerous are going to want stricter law enforcement. So violent video games, indeed any violent media, are contributing to the problem in similar ways as cop shows, if you take those arguments as valid. People who are taught that the solution to a dangerous world is stricter law enforcement will believe that stricter law enforcement is necessary to make the world safer. Also, CSI is a funny example, because it has had an actual impact on how jurors view cases that don't have the level of hard evidence that is present on the show.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:49
|
|
|
What? Is your takeaway that I'm saying Murphy Brown and Ellen increased unwed motherhood and lesbianism? Because I'm saying they didn't and churchlady handwringing about it is just as absurd as leftist churchlady handwringing about cop shows increasing the police state or whatever.fancy stats posted:Also, CSI is a funny example, because it has had an actual impact on how jurors view cases that don't have the level of hard evidence that is present on the show. Nope
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:51
|
|
|
X-O posted:I get the point about children being fed the wrong messages when they are young but that doesn't just apply to the morality of cop shows or even TV in a broader sense. I don't care who you are, you're indoctrinated as a child with some kind of wrong message. Everyone is. The point is that you grow up learn it's either wrong or a fantasy. I can easily enjoy cop shows because I know they're not real and I don't need them to be real. Sure it's great that some do reflect reality but I'm a grown person that enjoys entertainment as just that sometimes. I can enjoy Brooklyn Nine-Nine just as much as I can enjoy watching something like Friday The 13th. Doesn't mean I'm pro hockey masked killers at summer camps butchering teenagers. Black people being represented on TV and movies for most of the 20th C only as criminals and sketchy musicians has absolutely contributed to racist attitudes. Its the reason why MLK begged Nichelle Nichols to stay on Star Trek. Birth of the Nation directly led to the resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan. And cop shows leads to ppl believing in locking people up and cops are never wrong, definitely.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:52
|
|
|
zoux posted:Here's the crux of my problem, this copaganda thing is just another furtherance of the idea that the most important quality by which a piece of art must be evaluated is its ethical position. I don't think I saw anyone say that? It's a quality though, and one that is often just uncritically accepted, which is what we're taking about.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:52
|
|
|
zoux posted:Here's the crux of my problem, this copaganda thing is just another furtherance of the idea that the most important quality by which a piece of art must be evaluated is its ethical position. It's just as absurd as ideas that depictions of unwed motherhood on television leads to sinful promiscuity among women, or portraying homosexuality neutrally or non-negatively furthers a harmful gay agenda. It's Puritanical sanctimony, just from the other direction, and I'm exhausted by having to constantly read people talk about shows in terms of if the characters are "good or bad people". The problems with policing in America are not caused by CSI:Miami. You might as well ban the local news - as we know that massively increases a persons perception of the amount of crime and violence in the world, which probably does more to create this desire of necessarily hard-on-crime law enforcement than every cop show combined. You're making it too abstract. What are we talking about? Shows that show zealous cops taking down or killing vile criminals who deserve it, even if they have to skirt the laws thrown up by the corrupt defense atty or weak police superiors. Who is a cop nowadays? Ppl who believe the above. Make the shows or whatever but you cant convince me to participate in that poo poo, or not have bad feelings towards the ppl that make it or even enjoy it too much.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 21:58
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:You're making it too abstract. What are we talking about? Shows that show zealous cops taking down or killing vile criminals who deserve it, even if they have to skirt the laws thrown up by the corrupt defense atty or weak police superiors. That's fine with me. We just had a dude in here yesterday talking about how The Wire was pro-cop, which is why it's a thing. But the reason that they make things cop shows isn't because hollywood is secretly trying to further the American carceral state, it's because police work is an easy story engine for episodic television. That's why everything gets turned into a procedural now.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 22:02
|
|
|
And I get what's being said about examining the ethics of what art portrays, but understand that's something that we've ALWAYS done. We frequently reframe acceptance of art as a culture based on our norms and ethics. I mean, you don't see many TV westerns protecting homesteaders from raiding native Americans nowadays. It must also be recognized that cop procedurals are something that has to be examined as their own thing with a more critical eye due to their massive prevalence in the culture since the dawn of TV and just how much devastation the policing is bringing on the citizens of this country. So much of that has indelibly embedded itself into our culture. Everyone knows what I mean when I say "good cop/bad cop" in reference to a situation. That's something that media put in our collective language as a celebrated police process. When you actually think about what's happening there (suspect being coerced into incriminating themselves through systematic verbal and mental abuse) it is hosed up. But, we accept confessions of people who were held for 48 hours in a tiny room as being factual and good because in our minds we see two lovable characters switching between offering a suspect coffee and knocking it out of their hand over the course of an hour instead of seeing a sleep deprived person sitting in their own filth who has no idea what day it is admit to being somewhere just so they can get out of there so they don't get fired from their 2nd job for missing a shift. That is why we need to transforming these shows into something better and viewing them with a critical eye. That's why the discussion is important. They aren't the root cause of the issue, but they do help people shrug off the problem and avoid dealing with it.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 22:17
|
|
|
You know where the "CSI effect" came from? A bunch of prosecutors and cops whining about not being able to win cases. In fact, the overall acquittal rate in America has gone down since the show came out.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 22:19
|
|
|
if i ever teach a media literacy class, part of the curriculum will involve all six episodes of "how tv ruined your life."
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 22:24
|
|
|
fancy stats posted:Also, CSI is a funny example, because it has had an actual impact on how jurors view cases that don't have the level of hard evidence that is present on the show. It had an impact on how actual cops/DAs view cases. I had a chem professor who told us a story about how an area PD department contacted him wanting him to test some blood samples and tell them if the blood in the back of a pickup they pulled over was human or animal blood, and he had to tell them (in the early 2000s) that it wasn't possible without some actual, serious lab work put in that would cost a lot of money. They thought he could just grab some chemicals off the shelf, make a mixture, and then drop it on the sample and give them proof. It's been 15+ years but I remember at the time it came up wrt CSI and how everyone and their grandmother had this expectation of "science man make magic" for anything crime related. CSI really did a huge disservice in many ways, from creating the belief of expecting borderline super-science going on in criminal investigations, to also presenting as "ironclad evidence" a lot of junk science like bite mark and shoe print analysis.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 22:25
|
|
|
How hosed up is it that Batman is often referenced as having an impeachable moral code simply because he won't kill. That's a core tenant of his character, the bare loving minimum you would hope for when fighting crime, to not execute suspects. Actually, any comic nerds know, is that meant to be intentional commentary on the police system?
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 22:35
|
|
|
zoux posted:You know where the "CSI effect" came from? A bunch of prosecutors and cops whining about not being able to win cases. In fact, the overall acquittal rate in America has gone down since the show came out. Ok, so then people obviously believe the poo poo they see on csi then? But here's the thing, almost no cases even go to trial, like a vanishingly small percentage, so any whining you hear basically is catastrophic stupidity or in bad faith. There's also the very prevalent assumption that if you've been charged with a crime you must be guilty, because why else would you have been arrested and charged? This fear is leveraged by prosecutors, of course. So yeah, I really can't see juries expecting science magic as a problem, most people never get one.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:06
|
|
|
No, cops and prosecutors think that people who watch CSI are affected by it based on no evidence - a phenomenon we can observe this very minute in this very thread But the lack of trials is a good point, but individuals are represented by counsel who are advising them to take deals, so I think it’s more complicated than a culture of assuming guilt zoux fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:09
|
|
|
zoux posted:But the lack of trials is a good point, but individuals are represented by counsel who are advising them to take deals. Counsel that skimmed their file in 2 minutes outside the door. E: but this really has nothing to do with tv and everything to do with everything being utterly broken.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:13
|
|
|
Sorting Algorithms posted:Ah yes, reading comprehension. We're further removed from 9/11 than the original Wonder Years was from Vietnam.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:13
|
|
|
IRQ posted:Counsel that skimmed their file in 2 minutes outside the door. I can only agree
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:16
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:How hosed up is it that Batman is often referenced as having an impeachable moral code simply because he won't kill. That's a core tenant of his character, the bare loving minimum you would hope for when fighting crime, to not execute suspects. Batman had a gun when he first started and popped fools. Hays code and changing morality made the character non-lethal, probably just to salve their audiences consciousness about an unaccountable vigilante.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:How hosed up is it that Batman is often referenced as having an impeachable moral code simply because he won't kill. That's a core tenant of his character, the bare loving minimum you would hope for when fighting crime, to not execute suspects. I find myself bothered by those who argue that he should be killing people.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:39
|
|
|
pentyne posted:It had an impact on how actual cops/DAs view cases. Talking about 24 earlier as well as this point made me remember all the talk about torture. 24 had Jack Bauer doing "whatever it took to get answers" and it lead to a period of time where people did whatever it took to get answers. After a bit they found out that people just gave them whatever answers it took to stop the torture and was more than like to just back up whatever bias/theory the interrogator already had. After a bit the best way to get info, people found, was by motivating people to give them info. You still gotta fact check and find multiple sources but offering food, favours or cold hard cash is far more reliable. Hell doing like Jack and putting the gun barrel to the guys head only makes them cooperate while the barrel is pressed at their temple. Once you go away they are going to hate you even more. All that is besides the fact that torture is generally considered by modern view as kinda evil. So why did people in the civilian world and new recruits to various agencies think this was a good idea? Television. Whether for good or ill, things people see on television since birth make them think that is how the world works. In America, for example, cops don't have to do the whole "you have the right to remain silent" or you get out of jail free. Internal Affairs aren't bad guys looking to keep real cops down and public defenders and Defence Attorneys in general aren't just scumbags looking to make a buck. One of the weirdest COVID watches I've done in an insane amount of true crime; especially, Dateline with Keith Morrison as his voice is dreamy. I have seen good cops, lazy cops, dumb cops and straight up villain cops. I've seen prosecutors out for any blood and laughing at the consequences and defenders that genuinely care about the law and human rights. Been really interesting to watch and waste some time and my friends think I'm a bit daffy, this long haired stoner guy digging on Dateline but this poo poo can be fascinating. Sadly seen waaaaaaay too much to have even a semblance of faith in the American Criminal Justice system but even there most of the actual criminals getting caught believe 100% in what they have seen on tv. Maybe people are super dumb but maybe if everyone around you keeps saying the sky is purple then one day you go like "yeah its totes purple dude" just so you aren't the weirdo. Just all this convo about societal programming and the like makes me think and not in the silly conspiracy way. If old boomers only watch Fox then the reality must be, to their faulty logic, election was stolen, democrats want their guns, evil immigrants want their jawbs. Fox even tells them that Fox is the only place for Truth and everyone else lies. Would be great if they didn't just jump in the barrel whole hog but they are old and tired and don't want to use the newfangled clicker plus... the guy they already trust is telling them not to go anywhere as the world may die if they don't. That type of poo poo is genuinely harmful and the only time I think anything should truly be cancelled. bull3964 posted:How hosed up is it that Batman is often referenced as having an impeachable moral code simply because he won't kill. That's a core tenant of his character, the bare loving minimum you would hope for when fighting crime, to not execute suspects. https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/2/18292128/batman-no-killing-rule-zack-snyder There's an article that tells about why Batman stopped shooting fools or snapping their necks.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:40
|
|
|
Davros1 posted:I find myself bothered by those who argue that he should be killing people. Yeah. The "no killing/no guns" thing is wildly inconsistent but if there's any consistency to it at all I think its that Batman's generally written as having some kind consciousness that he or his system might go too far. Its why there's so many stories that are about him having secret plans to stop the Justice League if they go bad or kill Superman if he goes bad or standing up to the League lobotomizing villains or war gaming plans if the gangs ever take over Gotham or something. Batman often thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and that arrogance often ends up being a problem but he also seems like he often knows they could all go too far or the whole thing could go ugly if they don't have limits. "Who watches the Watchmen?" and all. So a bunch of people responding to that with "But it would be so cool if he murdered a bunch of people!" feels real weird.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 23:50
|
|
|
I think the “Batman should drop bodies” thing stems at least in large part from the way he keeps throwing the same people in the same prison and then they escape and kill hundreds of innocents. Like, if you know the Joker is going to escape and do another 9/11 on Gotham on Tuesday it does raise the question of “why don’t you put him down already” from a utilitarian perspective. Like, it’s an established pattern of behavior. You know that prison he broke out of last week isn’t going to stop him. If they didn’t lean on the same rogues gallery so much it probably wouldn’t come up as much.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 01:34
|
|
|
Just need the original Batman back
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 01:39
|
|
|
Looks like the Wool adaptation is finally happening as a TV show for Apple. Its been forever since I've read the series but I remember liking it. The story follows the last of humanity hundreds of years after a complete environmental collapse with the survivors living in a large underground structure called the Silo. It mainly follows Juliette (played by Rebecca Ferguson) an engineer from the bottom levels who upends their structured society when she starts to uncover the secrets of the Silo.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 02:12
|
|
|
Simone Magus posted:I get it, but at the same time, lol. Especially if it just tanks It has Pike in it and a ton of young very good actors who at least one or two are going to blow up from it and a huge budget (but not so insanely big as LOTR) and out of the three fantasy shows it has the best world building and arguably the best "chosen one" story ever written, and the weakness of the books (over detailed scenes, books 7-10 needing an editor the stupid braid/skirt/smoothing/crap everyone always brings up) will not be filmed. Now the Lord of the rings show has some great writers working on it, but WOT has a far more interesting story to tell than LORD OF THE RINGS the prequel. And the online fantasy fans are freaking pumped. It also has at least half a dozen battle/scenes that could make Avengers Endgame seem quaint if filmed properly. (And if they get to them).
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 02:13
|
|
|
Wool, the series, has been given a green light at Apple. I remember enjoying those books. The dude who did Justified is making it.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:00
|
|
|
So, The Nevers. They spent the whole season tossing balls into the air and for the finale, when asked which balls they were going to catch, they instead went and cleaned out a McDonalds fun zone and tossed them ALL in the air.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:09
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:So, The Nevers. I enjoyed it alot. I'm glad I stuck with it cause goddamn I'm tired of Victorian times.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:10
|
|
|
I'm just going to need some sort of show bible before part two comes out to keep track of everything. I don't hate it, but there's too much to keep track of. Edit: I'm chuckling at Laura Donnelly doing a Claudia Black impression who in turn was doing an north american accent. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 03:24 on May 21, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:13
|
|
|
muscles like this! posted:Looks like the Wool adaptation is finally happening as a TV show for Apple. Its been forever since I've read the series but I remember liking it. The story follows the last of humanity hundreds of years after a complete environmental collapse with the survivors living in a large underground structure called the Silo. It mainly follows Juliette (played by Rebecca Ferguson) an engineer from the bottom levels who upends their structured society when she starts to uncover the secrets of the Silo. I'm over apocalypse shows for now. More Ted Lasso.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:25
|
|
|
Yeah I dunno, I don't think I'm confused. I mean I watched Dark so everything else seems much simpler. Show did crib a bit from Travelers though.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:26
|
|
|
I don't know confused is the right word, I get the main plot. There are just so many incidental characters.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:28
|
|
|
Just reminds me of Game of Thrones in that way. I absolutely have to have subtitles on so I can at least read peoples names.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:32
|
|
|
It’s not like Scalia needed any influencing to rubber stamp human rights violations. He was going to rule in favor of what Dick Cheney wanted, that was his entire thing. His entire career was making rulings that favored conservatives and inventing whatever justification he wanted for it, all while claiming constitutional originalism.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 09:59 |
|
|
bull3964 posted:I'm chuckling at Laura Donnelly doing a Claudia Black impression who in turn was doing an north american accent. Claudia Black was exceptional in the finale. I hope her career really benefits from this, she's a fantastic actress.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 03:55
|
|
