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DrSunshine posted:EDIT: And yeah, the fact that the colonial powers of Europe can beat up on you for no penalty. You can even become a recognized power by defeating one in combat, like in the Russo-Japanese war. I really like this system because it highlights the Eurocentric/colonialist viewpoint. Actually, now I’m wondering if it would make sense for China to start out as recognized and becoming unrecognized due to getting easily beaten up by Europeans?
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May 26, 2021 16:36
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DrSunshine posted:Unrecognized states. Basically, the powers that be refuse to recognize your country as on the same level as them. Being unrecognized apparently doesn't give you any research penalties like being "uncivilized" like in V2, rather your road to industrialization is now just determined by your starting conditions, like your resources and the education/standard of living of your pops. I wonder if this means that you could beat up a great power so badly that they become unrecognized.
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May 26, 2021 16:40
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Haiti starts the game with an ongoing crippling debt payment to France (that you can renege on but it gives France claims on you), it's certainly not tutorial island/easy-mode though doing well in spite of France being a giant jerk is very satisfying. Fun fact: This debt wasn't paid back until 1947 historically.
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May 26, 2021 16:41
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I think it'd be pretty easy to make it where becoming recognized requires easing trade restrictions to get access to the world market risking euros wanting to carve up your land earlier and making Reactionaries mad. Do it too fast and Reactionaries overwhelm you and euros see you as a prime target for their flags and treaties. Rather than the very dumb Vicky 2 way of not knowing how to research beyond 1836 tech for a couple decades.Wiz posted:Haiti starts the game with an ongoing crippling debt payment to France (that you can renege on but it gives France claims on you), it's certainly not tutorial island/easy-mode though doing well in spite of France being a giant jerk is very satisfying. That's not a fun fact, same as most facts about Haiti post independence 
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May 26, 2021 16:42
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really queer Christmas posted:I think it'd be pretty easy to make it where becoming recognized requires easing trade restrictions to get access to the world market risking euros wanting to carve up your land earlier and making Reactionaries mad. Do it too fast and Reactionaries overwhelm you and euros see you as a prime target for their flags and treaties. Rather than the very dumb Vicky 2 way of not knowing how to research beyond 1836 tech for a couple decades. Yeah this would probably be a good way to basically do the same thing Vicky 2 did, where in that game "westernization" was an abstract way to represent your nation being treated as "more civilized" by acting more European. It would be a lot more thematically sound if this just happened naturally based on the player's own behaviour rather than filling up a special bar.
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May 26, 2021 16:45
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Fister Roboto posted:I wonder if this means that you could beat up a great power so badly that they become unrecognized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Years_of_Rice_and_Salt
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May 26, 2021 16:46
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really queer Christmas posted:That's not a fun fact, same as most facts about Haiti post independence Haiti really is such a lovely tale of a nation setup to fail by the international community so that slaves in other countries wouldn't get ideas.
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May 26, 2021 16:48
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BillBear posted:Won't be worse than the "uncivilised" stuff for virtually all of native Africa and Asia in Vicky 2 Even worse, some nations were 'primitive'.
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May 26, 2021 16:53
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Not only do I demand that the US states and Japanese daimyos are modeled as independent countries, but I want a start where every releasable nation is independent and playable.
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May 26, 2021 17:26
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Speaking of Haiti I wonder how well the game will represent the US's model of "its not a colony I swear" where a country is nominally independent and allegedly has its own foreign policy but the government and private sector are totally captured by US business interests.
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May 26, 2021 17:30
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AnEdgelord posted:Speaking of Haiti I wonder how well the game will represent the US's model of "its not a colony I swear" where a country is nominally independent and allegedly has its own foreign policy but the government and private sector are totally captured by US business interests. Well they plan to let people play as the united states so probably the same way as that.
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May 26, 2021 17:36
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Reveilled posted:Huh, I always heard that Africa was a matter of the Europeans drawing completely arbitrary lines on a map, turns out the pre-colonial societies already lined up exactly! Raenir Salazar posted:Having Japan start unified in the base game is more of a contrivance to make running Japan convenient for the player but isn't accurate. Vasukhani posted:I still don't get it. If you say that the Trotskyist conspiracy is real, as the game does, that means that the victims were at least partially traitors. Reminder this is a thing that actually happened and not a paragon/renegade choice in mass effect. There's no decision to go Trotskyist, no decision to give Kamenev more influence, you either act 100% like Stalin or you get severely penalized. (yes i know Trotsky has some apparently broken mechanics, but you'll only be aware of them if you're powergaming and are intentionally gunning for them). It's very bad design. If Paradox developed a cold war video-game where, as a lingering fascist Portugal, I had to actively gun down colonial protests and democratic organizations because, it turns out, they were all Soviet conspiracies and I would turn into a Soviet satellite if I tried to go off the (very bloody) beaten path, I would be livid. Sending in the cavalry to break up protests from the poors demanding bread and better living conditions in 1860 while you really really need that extra income to buy a battleship to keep up with your rival is still letting you be a very bad person, but that's an abstract policy where you're not defending an actual horrible event, and you can still NOT be a terrible person without crippling yourself. This unfortunately isn't what's presented to you as the Soviets in HoI4 and I hope it gets addressed in the new expansion, even if it is a sort of tragic-comedy to pay an extra 20 euros to play as a Soviet Union that's not a Stalin-Beria love affair. BillBear posted:
Do you mean in modern terms or in Victoria 2 contemporary terms? Because on the latter, playing as the British, you could probably pick with one hand the number of people they wouldn't consider absolute, ruthless unwashed savages. And you wouldn't even need to leave Europe to see these comments 
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May 26, 2021 17:49
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Mans posted:This is a video game. We want to play Victoria 3, which is a video game that was recently announced. This is like saying "It's a story for children" when someone wants to dig into the themes of a piece of literature. The fact is "video game" doesn't mean a game can't both be fun (or rather, engaging) and historically accurate at the same time, or can't derive its engagement from carefully crafted systems that (and this is important) convey a substantial sense of immersion by seeming to be accurate in how things work and behave. If you read the follow up posts I made and not just responding to the first post out of context of the rest of the discussion you'd have seen how I continue on to carefully justify this and suggest a system that would be fun/engaging because it presents interesting period accurate and immersive challenges to the players.
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May 26, 2021 17:57
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LostCosmonaut posted:Not only do I demand that the US states and Japanese daimyos are modeled as independent countries, but I want a start where every releasable nation is independent and playable. I know this is a joke post but the second part seems like something they actually could do. I mean it's an option in HoI4. There's a mod for Vicky 2 that makes every nation start as primitive so something similar for Vicky 3 could also be plausible (although it raises the question of "if everyone is unrecognized, who are they not being recognized BY", but well, it's not like it's intended to be a "realistic" start).
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May 26, 2021 18:01
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The Cheshire Cat posted:This is something where the "local markets" thing could work really well - since fundamentally the problem all those old nations had was not really that they were just like, arbitrarily worse than everyone else, but that they did not have access to modern technology due to either decisions made by their own heads of state (as in the case of Japan or China and their extremely isolationist trade policies), or that they simply were not recognized as legitimate states capable of making trade agreements and were treated as "terra nullius" free for colonization, like most of Africa. So as an unrecognized nation the main challenge would be "if you can't make it yourself, you can't get it at all". This would still realistically handicap the unrecognized nations, while also still allowing them the potential to catch up by say, investing in their own military tech and just going "we'll just make our own artillery then". Although it seems like it would also make sense that lacking access to certain materials would hinder your technological development - I don't know if they are going to model this but it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to do (i.e. it would be a lot harder to develop new guns if you don't have any models to study. You could still do it, but it's more work). Much of Japan's (and later China's) modernization was fueled by imports of machinery/technology/knowhow independent of their ability to domestically produce it. For example both Japan and China bought warships from Britain/France/Germany while they worked to expand their shipbuilding industry to the point of launching their own domestic designs. What's interesting about Japan's situation is before the Boshin War you had local domains buying western military equipment. So in the Substate 2.0 idea you could have your local administrations doing their own imports/exports at certain costs to stability/influence of the central government. The main challenge is that buying modern technology isn't just buying a single steam engine, since it breaks down, its buying a bunch of equipment in batches, their parts, and advisors/engineers to work and maintain it; which involves needing to allow a foreign firm access to your country. So the cost is one issue that is challenging for many nations like China whose budget surplus's collapsed due to British textiles outcompeting them; and poor harvests, and civil unrest. The suggestion that reactionaries are going to get upset with all of this change happening too fast I think hits the nail on the head on top of other issues like letting trade companies access to your interior which then gives their home country influence over you, demanding concessions where they can secure their peoples safety, the ability to extradite them for crimes instead of being tried in local courts; there's a whole rear end system you can design around it.
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May 26, 2021 18:05
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LostCosmonaut posted:Not only do I demand that the US states and Japanese daimyos are modeled as independent countries, but I want a start where every releasable nation is independent and playable.
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May 26, 2021 18:07
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I know this is a joke post but the second part seems like something they actually could do. I mean it's an option in HoI4. There's a mod for Vicky 2 that makes every nation start as primitive so something similar for Vicky 3 could also be plausible (although it raises the question of "if everyone is unrecognized, who are they not being recognized BY", but well, it's not like it's intended to be a "realistic" start). Clearly they don't recognize themselves! Or each other for that matter!
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May 26, 2021 18:08
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Which US states should start off as unrecognized? texas and the 13 colonies are the only ones to have won wars at game start, so are the only recognized states
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May 26, 2021 18:10
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The Cheshire Cat posted:although it raises the question of "if everyone is unrecognized, who are they not being recognized BY" It would just be an alt-history without Westphalian sovereignty. Exclusive territorial sovereignty isn't a constant throughout history, and the fact that Paradox's games treat ownership of territory as if it did exist is one of their biggest weaknesses. It's especially out of place when it's being applied to nomads in Imperator and CK2.
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May 26, 2021 18:16
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The Cheshire Cat posted:This is a bit of a tangent but a lot of this probably stems from SimCity and how it was presented as basically just being a plain "city simulator", rather than representing a specific viewpoint (the model it uses came entirely from one book, a book which was not without controversy even at the time), and that sort of thinking has been carried forward to sims in general. Yeah the tendency to mistake anything with the trappings of authenticity for a 1-to-1 reality simulator instead of just one particular model of reality is especially commonplace when it comes to history games. I quite like the diegetic stuff in Paradox games, like how in CKII you want to hunt down apostates because they could literally be performing dark magic behind your back, though I think part of the issue is that while Paradox usually wants to depict both the material or ideational realities of a period, they're a little inconsistent about focusing on one or the other. Plus there's the fact that while something like witchcraft is generally understood to not be a thing, many (most?) people unfortunately still think "civilized" and "uncivilized" are meaningful academic concepts. The Cheshire Cat posted:https://acoup.blog/2021/04/30/collections-teaching-paradox-europa-univeralis-iv-part-i-state-of-play/ Seconding the blog recommendation. A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry is always a great read.
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May 26, 2021 18:17
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really queer Christmas posted:Well they plan to let people play as the united states so probably the same way as that. Sure but i more meant to ask if when I do a United Fruit Company to some latin american countries do they just ahistorically turn into European Great Power-style colonies or does something else happen thats more reflective of their actual relationship?
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May 26, 2021 18:17
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yikes! posted:texas and the 13 colonies are the only ones to have won wars at game start, so are the only recognized states
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May 26, 2021 18:20
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AnEdgelord posted:Sure but i more meant to ask if when I do a United Fruit Company to some latin american countries do they just ahistorically turn into European Great Power-style colonies or does something else happen thats more reflective of their actual relationship? I feel like this might be represented by the trade agreements/market stuff? We'll see when they talk more about it but they have already mentioned that trade agreements can either be a fair exchange, or deliberately unequal. So the US could have a series of extremely exploitative market agreements that basically allow them to import goods at no cost from those countries without offering anything in return.
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May 26, 2021 18:22
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AnEdgelord posted:Sure but i more meant to ask if when I do a United Fruit Company to some latin american countries do they just ahistorically turn into European Great Power-style colonies or does something else happen thats more reflective of their actual relationship?
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May 26, 2021 18:23
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Can't really answer the question without knowing about all the diplomatic options you are given but there's probably a way for a country to capture another's factories/RGO production.
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May 26, 2021 18:29
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Mans posted:The point is that Hoi4 makes you purge political and military leaders because otherwise Trotsky, or even Vlasov, make a coup and absolutely ruin your game just before the Nazis kick you in the face. This is a pretty small thing all things considered, but I find it really weird if they've actually put down Vlasov as (I assume) a potential leader of a Soviet Union turned fascist. The thing is that Vlasov's defection to Nazi Germany was very much a result of the specific circmstances of his defeat and capture in 1942. While it seems he harbored anti-bolshevik sentiments, he decidedly had not been outspoken and political before the war and was a careerist (supposedly a pretty good division commander) more than anything else. While he certainly became an icon of treason and collaboration, he probably would never have defected if he had bed not been captured under the specific circumstances he was at a time in the war where it seemed Germany would still win. Basically he doesn't really make sense as a Russian leader of any ideology apart for maybe a fascist puppet government set up by Germany.
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May 26, 2021 18:38
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Dayton Sports Bar posted:Yeah the tendency to mistake anything with the trappings of authenticity for a 1-to-1 reality simulator instead of just one particular model of reality is especially commonplace when it comes to history games. It also comes with one-sided view. Paradox forums are full of complaints about how my 5000 French troops can't just obliterate 10000 of Mali soldiers in 1540. There are very few complaints about you veing able to transport 5000 troops in the middle of Africa and have them able to fight there in 1540.
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May 26, 2021 18:42
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ilitarist posted:It also comes with one-sided view. Paradox forums are full of complaints about how my 5000 French troops can't just obliterate 10000 of Mali soldiers in 1540. There are very few complaints about you veing able to transport 5000 troops in the middle of Africa and have them able to fight there in 1540. There was an old blog I used to like (that hasn't updated since like 2015) that was all about exploring realism in fiction, and one of the big points they'd hit on a lot was that often the people complaining about "lack of realism" were very selective about what they thought was "unrealistic". Complaints about "realism" are often just very poorly masked "this does not conform to my ideology".
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May 26, 2021 18:46
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is like saying "It's a story for children" when someone wants to dig into the themes of a piece of literature. The fact is "video game" doesn't mean a game can't both be fun (or rather, engaging) and historically accurate at the same time, or can't derive its engagement from carefully crafted systems that (and this is important) convey a substantial sense of immersion by seeming to be accurate in how things work and behave. Spending a lot of dev time modeling a perfectly simulated Japan for people who really like James Clavell/body pillows is insanity. Simulate it with pops and move on.
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May 26, 2021 18:50
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I know war is not a focus of vicky3 but to the extent that it does happen I hope they take notes from the supply system being added to hoi4. I think every paradox game would be improved by having realistic limits on supplying troops away from their homeland.
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May 26, 2021 19:05
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Realistically Vicky 3 will have a poo poo ton of ahistorical stuff, like all paradox games. You may not notice it because it’s not in your personal sphere but it will exist. If you can’t give a gameplay reason for it to exist then there isn’t really a justification for it
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May 26, 2021 19:23
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The Cheshire Cat posted:There was an old blog I used to like (that hasn't updated since like 2015) that was all about exploring realism in fiction, and one of the big points they'd hit on a lot was that often the people complaining about "lack of realism" were very selective about what they thought was "unrealistic". Complaints about "realism" are often just very poorly masked "this does not conform to my ideology". Another thing is the very nature of realism in fiction. We tell stories about extraordinary circumstances. Say, Treasure Island is about a teenager who gets involved in a fight between gangs of pirates, outwits them and helps a party of gentlemen to get a pirate treasure, and at some point, he singlehandedly steals a ship from a crew of pirates. But as soon as you put some kind of minority in a said role and even if they're older and physically more capable than said teen you'll see a lot of comments about how unrealistic this all is. Fiction is usually barely plausible, but as soon as it offends us we ask for it to be statistically probable.
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May 26, 2021 19:29
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Raskolnikov38 posted:I too enjoy being made master of the balkans and vassalizing the Ottoman Empire in exchange for winning a stupid easy war You must be playing the other Russia that isn't interested in becoming suzeraine of the Balkans and retaking Constantinople in the name of Orthodox Christianity in order to become the Third Rome in fact as well as name. My mistake.
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May 26, 2021 19:34
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CharlestheHammer posted:Realistically Vicky 3 will have a poo poo ton of ahistorical stuff, like all paradox games. You may not notice it because it’s not in your personal sphere but it will exist. If you can’t give a gameplay reason for it to exist then there isn’t really a justification for it Universal currency, global surveillance and instant communications around the globe, daily updates on statistics with perfect knowledge of everything inside of your country, absolute authority over your armies in the field, relentless unified will ruling over a country for century(-ies), generals and agents traveling FTL... Also yeah, sometimes those games misrepresent specific historical events to be more fun or easier to understand.
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May 26, 2021 19:37
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Dirk Pitt posted:Spending a lot of dev time modeling a perfectly simulated Japan for people who really like James Clavell/body pillows is insanity. Simulate it with pops and move on. you could say the same about literally any place on earth getting special mechanics or a detailed starting scenario. why bother modeling the process of german unification in exacting detail for people who really like their bismarck body pillows? and yet i think it's 100% certain that they will be doing that.
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May 26, 2021 19:37
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Dirk Pitt posted:Spending a lot of dev time modeling a perfectly simulated Japan for people who really like James Clavell/body pillows is insanity. Simulate it with pops and move on. What are you talking about? Can you elaborate in what way you're responding to what I said? I made sure to take steps to show how the system can be broadly applied across the board and would be a solution to a number of different issues with the genre. CharlestheHammer posted:Realistically Vicky 3 will have a poo poo ton of ahistorical stuff, like all paradox games. You may not notice it because it’s not in your personal sphere but it will exist. If you can’t give a gameplay reason for it to exist then there isn’t really a justification for it There's also a lot of stuff that can be done that are both aid in immersion and have compelling gameplay and balance justifications. The logistics one is actually pretty big.
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May 26, 2021 19:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What is the meaningful difference between the two, not captured by US economic/political differences relative to for example the UK? The two big differences between US puppet regimes and European Colonial holdings would be: 1. Despite everything the US puppet regimes would have significantly more autonomy (so long as it doesn't interfere with US interests). 2. There is a plausible deniability in the US relationship to its puppet regimes that doesnt exist in the European Colonial context. In game this would probably mean that it would generate less Infamy/Aggressive expansion to establish them. You could even have them engage in proxy wars on your behalf but that might be asking a bit much right off the bat.
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May 26, 2021 19:40
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I'm just glad Prussia won't be dumbass invincible wehraboo supersoldiers in Vicky.
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May 26, 2021 19:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:What are you talking about? Can you elaborate in what way you're responding to what I said? I made sure to take steps to show how the system can be broadly applied across the board and would be a solution to a number of different issues with the genre. To be honest the logistics stuff sounds moretedious than fun, but I was more referring to the Japan stuff, modeling it doesn’t really seem to accomplish anything. May even make Japan less fun to play
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May 26, 2021 19:45
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Jazerus posted:you could say the same about literally any place on earth getting special mechanics or a detailed starting scenario. And conveniently enough the system that can make a convincing attempt at modeling the Japanese situation would also be good at modeling Germany.  The actual position I made though is not "spend lots of time perfectly crafting a historically accurate 1840's Japan" its "model a system that is robust that can model any nation during the time period and puts you in the actual hot seat of what world leaders actually worried about at the time" which consistently follows the premise/goal of Victoria 3 being basically a zen bonsai tree nation management game. CharlestheHammer posted:To be honest the logistics stuff sounds moretedious than fun, but I was more referring to the Japan stuff, modeling it doesn’t really seem to accomplish anything No one is saying that the game shouldn't be ahistorical and no one is saying Japan should be perfectly accurate though, the context I was discussing isn't that to be clear; its that given certain facts about how Japan and by extension the rest of the world work, it would be pretty cool and fun and add to immersion to come up with a model that works across the board; you can have your cake and eat it thrice. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 19:47 on May 26, 2021 |
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May 26, 2021 19:45
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