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Jerusalem posted:I think it might have actually been as early as when she told him she wasn't going to stay the night. He seems surprised, but then when she's gone he also seems to in that moment think,"gently caress, I shouldn't have done that". Yeah, pretty much. It's just so obvious that it's a terrible loving idea. Hamm does a great job pulling a face that says, "Welp." So, he's a total dick on purpose with the open door thing, and pointedly thanking her for bringing him his keys, but the bonus is interesting, because I think he's genuinely trying to show gratitude. I think he's oblivious to the fact that he's treating her like a whore, even though it's perfectly apparent to better adjusted people. E: The other thing that's galling about the hurtful approach Don takes is that he had a night and a morning to prepare for what he was going to say. And we've repeatedly seen Don be like loving Batman when he's prepared. He was ready to cooly rip Duck's spine out because Pete gave him a day's notice that Duck would be the new president of Sterling Cooper. He had like 2 hours to prepare for that Madison Square Garden lunch date and crushed it. He had longer than that in this case. And he humiliated and disrespected her into speechlessness. Yoshi Wins fucked around with this message at 05:27 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 05:16
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That moment's a pretty strong candidate for the most demeaning thing Don's ever done, and it's not like it's a short list. Hell, it's the most demeaning thing in this episode, which is notorious enough an accolade right there.
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May 25, 2021 05:19
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Every single male character in this episode loving sucks, except Henry and Bobby
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May 25, 2021 07:10
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Yoshi Wins posted:E: The other thing that's galling about the hurtful approach Don takes is that he had a night and a morning to prepare for what he was going to say. And we've repeatedly seen Don be like loving Batman when he's prepared. He was ready to cooly rip Duck's spine out because Pete gave him a day's notice that Duck would be the new president of Sterling Cooper. He had like 2 hours to prepare for that Madison Square Garden lunch date and crushed it. He had longer than that in this case. And he humiliated and disrespected her into speechlessness. Accurate. Though, given the only respectful way to deal with Allison was by being emotionally honest with her about what he's going through, it's hardly surprising. He left an important meeting earlier that day because a piece of paper asked questions that were slightly too personal. Client problems can be solved with lies, but this problem can't. Don's avoidance when it comes to emotional communication is next-level, though. poo poo has to get real dire for him to admit anything of his true feelings, so I fully buy he'd be monstrous to his secretary before admitting the toll his divorce has on him. [S5] I was going to liken 'getting Don to be vulnerable' to pulling teeth, then remembered that Don completely no-sells his guilt over Lane's suicide until developing a literal abscessed tooth, getting it extracted, and hallucinating his dead-by-suicide brother. Even that obvious connection - of Don cutting off desperate people who then hang themselves - took pulling a literal tooth for him to confront it.
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May 25, 2021 19:53
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This episode highlights a core attribute of the show that I really enjoy with the presentation of Freddy's mini arc here. He truly does seem to be a decent man, even though it's pretty clear he's a man of his time (or perhaps on the cusp of becoming truly old-fashioned) in regards to how he views women. The show doesn't shy away from the ugly truth of how people behaved and what they believed, while also not trivializing or demonizing those beliefs and behavior. Freddy is condescending to Peggy even though she does have the better idea, and has the gall to guilt her into apologizing to him(!) for calling him out. It is his account though, and it's understandable why he'd be protective of it given his situation, but more importantly, he does seem to care about her, and he immediately rushes to support his alcoholic friend. Meanwhile, you could say Don and Pete are more progressive on certain fronts, but they're clearly really rotten to the core besides.
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May 25, 2021 20:28
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It's a humane and compassionate show about a bunch of assholes. I love it.
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May 26, 2021 05:05
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OK, I don't really think everyone in the show is an rear end in a top hat. I just wanted my post to be kinda snappy. But you know I mean. I like that exchange Pete and Peggy have in season 2. Pete: Everything is so easy for you. Peggy: It's not easy for anyone, Pete. I like your words, Peggy.
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May 26, 2021 05:12
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I'm trying to think but I think the only characters that come off as irredeemably awful are Greg, the jaguar exec, and Archibald Whitman.
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May 26, 2021 05:14
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One of my pet peeves in period pieces is when a character seems basically transplanted from the modern world with the same thoughts/feelings/awareness of what would be considered modern morality. It's not to say that there weren't people who felt or acted that way in those times, but that they were very much in the minority AND it largely ignores or rejects the idea that people could still be good or nice or even progressive while still having some truly wretched views that were actually completely "normal" for the time. That's part of the reason I dig Mad Men. Like The Klowner says, Freddy is an older guy with a very traditional mindset... but he's also willing and open to accepting people outside of the usual middle-aged white male might have something of value and interest to say with an experience that better informs them to develop better ideas than he ever could. But he's ALSO somebody who despite this seeming progressive mindset casually defines men and women by specific gender roles and sexual norms, makes moral judgments about sex, and considers the ultimate goal of any woman is and should be getting married. Then you've got a guy like Pete who is a slimy piece of poo poo, a creep, a brown-noser and a child of privilege from an old High Society New York Family.... but who also sees zero problem with marketing to black people, genuinely seems to believe with zero self-awareness that the American Dream is absolutely a possibility for EVERYBODY, and is bewildered and mildly disgusted by seeing blackface acts. But he also immediately dismissed the idea of a female copywriter as a gimmick intended to punish him, told Peggy she had no right to give away HIS child, gleefully turned Freddy in so he could get ahead in the office etc. Nobody is one-dimensional, every character basically has flaws and good qualities and underlying issues thanks to their background, their "modern" society, their families, societal pressure etc. Peggy is an intelligent, savvy and independent woman... who also feels enormous Catholic Guilt at times thanks to pressure from her family, feels like she HAS to be with a man to be complete, rejected motherhood and is full of contradictions about her own sexual drive. Plus Don is... well I mean, goddamn.
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May 26, 2021 06:01
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Jerusalem posted:[Pete]...told Peggy she had no right to give away HIS child... Is there something I'm forgetting? This doesn't happen in the Meditations in an Emergency confession scene. Jerusalem posted:One of my pet peeves in period pieces is when a character seems basically transplanted from the modern world with the same thoughts/feelings/awareness of what would be considered modern morality. It's not to say that there weren't people who felt or acted that way in those times, but that they were very much in the minority AND it largely ignores or rejects the idea that people could still be good or nice or even progressive while still having some truly wretched views that were actually completely "normal" for the time. It can be scary to write about the past and to really imagine it from their perspective. The implications are serious. To write characters with obsolete morals with empathy requires accepting a hard truth: They acted and thought as we would have under their circumstances. Who can say how we are being led astray by our own limited perspectives?
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May 26, 2021 06:55
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Yoshi Wins posted:Is there something I'm forgetting? This doesn't happen in the Meditations in an Emergency confession scene. Sorry, I was sure I remembered him saying something akin to,"You had no right to do that..." but looking back he's just horrified and then demands to know how she could tell him this (the implication being he would have rather kept living in ignorant bliss since there's nothing he can do about it now).
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May 26, 2021 09:03
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Although I can definitely see Pete being incensed that Peggy would do that to "his" baby, I also imagine Pete would've instantly pressured her to "fix the problem" if he'd actually known about it. For someone so obsessed with his reputation, I can't imagine having a kid out of wedlock with a secretary from Brooklyn is something he'd accept or want anyone to know about.Yoshi Wins posted:It can be scary to write about the past and to really imagine it from their perspective. The implications are serious. To write characters with obsolete morals with empathy requires accepting a hard truth: They acted and thought as we would have under their circumstances. Who can say how we are being led astray by our own limited perspectives? I've said this elsewhere in this thread, but yeah, 60's narratives in particular often wind up as puff pieces for vain Boomers. "This is when we fixed Old and Evil and made America un-racist and un-sexist." Mad Men does a better job than anything I can think of at dispelling that notion, because even the young and progressive voices in the show are still flawed, selfishly-motivated, and antiquated in their thinking in some other way. Certainly Paul Kinsey fits the bill - he's a stereotype of a performative progressive who clearly has issues being shown up by a girl - but there are others from some of Megan or Joyce's more bohemian connections, to most notably Abe, who's outspoken about Left politics but also pretty chauvinist about women. In a lesser show, those characters would be perfect people and the moral compass for everyone else. But that's not how people actually were at the time, or are now. Nobody is exempt from influence by the society they were born into. Xealot fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 26, 2021 |
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May 26, 2021 19:43
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Its why all those other Mad Men knock offs failed, American Dreams, Pan Am, etc. They were nostalgia tinted psuedo memories of boomers. Mad Men is a younger generation poking at the things that perennially crop in every generation.
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May 26, 2021 19:56
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Xealot posted:I can definitely see Pete being incensed that Peggy would do that to "his" baby Yeah, that's what prompted me to rewatch the scene. It's very easy to imagine. Pete almost always throws a tantrum or can visibly be seen to be fighting off a tantrum whenever something doesn't go his way. But in that scene, he is so stunned and then so sad that it seems like he doesn't have the energy to get angry. He doesn't raise his voice and by the end of the scene he's sitting still, alone, and crying without sobbing or wiping his tears away. He's just so defeated by the rejection.
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May 26, 2021 19:59
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McSpanky posted:That moment's a pretty strong candidate for the most demeaning thing Don's ever done, and it's not like it's a short list. Hell, it's the most demeaning thing in this episode, which is notorious enough an accolade right there. Betty talks about how Don doesn't understand money, and boy does he really show it when thinking he can use his money to solve problems. When his brother showed up, his only game plan was "here's as much money as I can get, go away". Yoshi Wins posted:Yeah, that's what prompted me to rewatch the scene. It's very easy to imagine. Pete almost always throws a tantrum or can visibly be seen to be fighting off a tantrum whenever something doesn't go his way. But in that scene, he is so stunned and then so sad that it seems like he doesn't have the energy to get angry. He doesn't raise his voice and by the end of the scene he's sitting still, alone, and crying without sobbing or wiping his tears away. He's just so defeated by the rejection. When that season ended after that scene with Pete sitting on the couch with the gun I remember people speculating he might kill himself.
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May 26, 2021 20:46
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Shageletic posted:Its why all those other Mad Men knock offs failed, American Dreams, Pan Am, etc. They were nostalgia tinted psuedo memories of boomers. Let us not forget the Playboy Club! and also when Mad Men does the entire idea better in one scene
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May 26, 2021 22:52
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pentyne posted:Betty talks about how Don doesn't understand money, and boy does he really show it when thinking he can use his money to solve problems. I didn't even connect the two, thank you. Notably he also does this to Megan in the divorce, writes her a huge check. And of course when Lane tries the same thing, although using company money, Don harangues him for it which results in his suicide. Edit: Megan also does this to Stephanie, which irks Don even though he never actually finds out about it.
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May 26, 2021 23:08
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Somehow I feel like Pan Am would have done better anywhere but ABC for reasons I can't exactly put my finger on.
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May 26, 2021 23:29
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ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:I didn't even connect the two, thank you. I don't think the situation with Lane is comparable. Don sometimes throws money at a personal problem, but Lane's problem was that he was living beyond his means so he embezzled money. And Don let him keep the money!
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May 27, 2021 00:25
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The worst part is if Lane hadn't been so british and just asked for help Don would've loaned him the money no problem
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May 27, 2021 00:28
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Don is definitely responsible for his brothers suicide but I cannot blame him for what Lane ended up doing.
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May 27, 2021 00:47
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Don is definitely responsible for his brothers suicide but I cannot blame him for what Lane ended up doing. Lane made his own decisions and his own mistakes, but Don's still a little complicit, right? Lane was in a desperate situation and Don was his last resort, and Don's rejection of him was pretty ice cold even if it was justifiable. Clearly, he does feel guilt over it: why else would he hallucinate Adam everywhere afterwards? And he does try to money away his guilt; he personally gives Rebecca a huge check and is then scolded down for it. "Don't think you did this for anyone but yourself!" Mostly, though, I think Adam and Lane point to how warped Don's capacity for human connection is. Telling a desperate person on the brink to "just abandon your current life and start over" is insane, a very cruel and devastating thing to say. Don thinks this was showing Lane mercy because "starting over" is what Don did, what he imagines doing all the time. It's a worldview that reveals how conditional and temporary he thinks every connection he has actually is. And how invested can Don truly be in his relationships - with friends, wives, children - if he's prepared to vanish after one bad day?
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May 27, 2021 02:40
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Xealot posted:Lane made his own decisions and his own mistakes, but Don's still a little complicit, right? Lane was in a desperate situation and Don was his last resort, and Don's rejection of him was pretty ice cold even if it was justifiable. Clearly, he does feel guilt over it: why else would he hallucinate Adam everywhere afterwards? And he does try to money away his guilt; he personally gives Rebecca a huge check and is then scolded down for it. "Don't think you did this for anyone but yourself!" I think saying he's complicit is going too far. First off he didn't realize Lane was quite that Desperate. And two Lane did make his own choice to embezzle money when the company was in dire straits. I think Don was being totally sincere as well, Lane clearly wanted to just cut England out of his life, Don knew that and gave him the advice that worked well enough for him. Lane really should've just asked him for the money, Don would've given it readily. Hell even Roger might've
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May 27, 2021 02:44
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I don't think it's fair to lay any of the blame on Don. He let Lane keep the money he STOLE! He didn't tell anyone else about it to save Lane the shame. He would have given him the money if asked. What more was he supposed to do? Don finds out his financial officer stole from the company and gives him what is today the equivalent of $64,000 and actively shields him from possibly facing legal consequences. What else could he have done except continue to employ a financial officer who had embezzled?
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May 27, 2021 03:35
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Xealot posted:Lane made his own decisions and his own mistakes, but Don's still a little complicit, right? Lane was in a desperate situation and Don was his last resort, and Don's rejection of him was pretty ice cold even if it was justifiable. Clearly, he does feel guilt over it: why else would he hallucinate Adam everywhere afterwards? And he does try to money away his guilt; he personally gives Rebecca a huge check and is then scolded down for it. "Don't think you did this for anyone but yourself!" i don't think don was treating lane's suicide the same as adam's, but i do think why the show is drawing a parallel is because lane's is what finally makes him actually critically analyze his hand in adam's. its not something hes come back to thinking about since anna died, and it was never something he seemed to think too deeply about his role in in the first place. but lane dying so directly after their final interaction and in exactly the same way adam did forces don to compare and contrast, to realize that even though there were months between their final encounter and the news that adam had killed himself, that he was just as involved. they killed themselves for pretty different reasons, lane because of his weird british pride/shame and adam out of pure isolation and despondency that his idolized big brother would abandon him not once but twice. but the superficial nature of lane makes him reflect on adam, and this i believe is part of a direct line to why he brings his kids to see where he grew up.
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May 27, 2021 07:32
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Yoshi Wins posted:I don't think it's fair to lay any of the blame on Don. He let Lane keep the money he STOLE! He didn't tell anyone else about it to save Lane the shame. He would have given him the money if asked. What more was he supposed to do? Don finds out his financial officer stole from the company and gives him what is today the equivalent of $64,000 and actively shields him from possibly facing legal consequences. What else could he have done except continue to employ a financial officer who had embezzled? Oh, I don't think Don was wrong to want Lane to resign. Objectively, the deal he offered was very kind. But he'd also known and trusted Lane for years, was his friend, and seemed pretty uninterested in reconciling how or why Lane would do this on a personal level. Don was being more than charitable by keeping the authorities out of it, ignoring the money, but he also told a friend and partner to get out of his sight forever and uproot his entire life in a weekend. Bert or Pete would've done far worse, obviously. But Don is no stranger to doing something desperate and criminal when backed into a corner. He was willing to bend the rules for Lane on that basis, to give Lane the kind of escape plan he might've taken, but not to approach him with empathy or understanding, and I suspect that dispassion played a role in the downward spiral Lane fell into. Of course, Don didn't *have to* do any of it. Lane broke the law and harmed the firm. Don would've been well within his rights to say, "gently caress off. I'm telling the partners." But Anna would've been well within her rights to say, "you're not Don Draper and I called the police." Good thing for Don that she chose empathy.
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May 27, 2021 11:14
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Does anybody remember that animated fan fiction from back when the show originally aired where Paul Kinsey is a Soviet spy who holds Don at gunpoint and the self-insert protagonist saves him?
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May 27, 2021 20:16
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Does anybody remember that animated fan fiction from back when the show originally aired where Paul Kinsey is a Soviet spy who holds Don at gunpoint and the self-insert protagonist saves him?  What?
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May 28, 2021 12:03
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Found it (S4 spoilers apparently): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRU-SIlr-MA
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May 28, 2021 15:10
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Found it (S4 spoilers apparently): lol but also ew
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May 28, 2021 17:32
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Found it (S4 spoilers apparently): loving what? There's a lot to unpack here.
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May 28, 2021 18:08
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Alex Thurman is my new favorite mad man
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May 28, 2021 19:21
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Found it (S4 spoilers apparently): There are spoilers up through S5, yeah. But goddamn what the gently caress?!
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May 28, 2021 19:58
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what the absolute gently caress did i just watch
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May 29, 2021 02:30
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aBagorn posted:what the absolute gently caress did i just watch Something wonderful
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May 29, 2021 02:50
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I'm glad to see that Drew Carey lived
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May 29, 2021 03:34
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My favorite part about that video is the fact that with zero context the "Don and his new wife" bit could easily be written off as just part of the crack fic Please god somebody remember to repost that when Jerusalem is caught up
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May 29, 2021 03:48
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The Klowner posted:lol but also ew loving lol this is the content I crave waiting for more Jerusalem posts
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May 29, 2021 03:50
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This latest episode hits some horrifying emotional lows.... and some absolutely loving incredible comedic highs  
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May 30, 2021 04:54
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What a waste of a quality steak.
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May 30, 2021 05:15
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