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Mans posted:playing as communist Russia and having to deal with creating every single factory myself was hell. I literally let the social democrats coup me just so I could focus on other things. I hope this changes in Vic 3 I always, always went liberal in Vicky 2 for this exact reason. AI capitalists may be dumb but I'll take AI inefficiency over micromanagement hell (unless playing a really small country I guess). And honestly, even though they did a lot of dumb stuff and I'd occasionally be pulling my hair out over their silliness overall the economy still seemed to do all right with them.
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May 29, 2021 17:05
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PerniciousKnid posted:Were black Americans an accepted culture? Nope. You could get them accepted if you chose radical reconstruction in all the post-civil-war events.
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May 29, 2021 17:06
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Mans posted:It's doubly weird to let communist revolutions to open "gulags". The GULAG had no relevant economic contribution to the soviet economy and their peak was during the war, specifically due to prisoners of war. This isn't historically accurate, first, the gulags were used to develop the remote reaches of siberia; so at a minimum different socialist governments could use them to spur development of their frontier zones; provided something like up to on average 50% of the USSR's raw materials quote:In game terms, what would it accomplish? Let communist states create gulags for economic and political bonuses, which is an absolutely horrifying and whitewash thing to do? Not having gulags, and not representing the horrors of colonialism, can also be argued to whitewash history. Representing it would help give the player insight into the history of the era; much like that "Trains" boardgame. And provides a mechanism that spurs social change; either the collapse of soviet regimes back into democracies, or for colonial empires to break up into commonwealths or independent states and the end of colonialism. Under the argument that it could happen earlier.
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May 29, 2021 17:13
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Mans posted:playing as communist Russia and having to deal with creating every single factory myself was hell. I literally let the social democrats coup me just so I could focus on other things. I hope this changes in Vic 3 ... what other things? Diplomacy was pretty dull, colonialism was difficult given Russia's awful starting literacy, leaving warfare which could work but my experience was getting stomped by Germany in pointless conflicts over tiny patches of land (not historically inaccurate). Also from what I recall even state capitalism forced you to spend almost as much time and effort closing/fixing idiotic capitalist-built factories, though I suppose you could tax them into oblivion so they could never afford to do anything.
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May 29, 2021 17:16
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It’s it whitewashing to not have it but it kind of is to have it and for it to have a benefit. If it doesn’t have a benefit the player just wouldn’t do it unless they really really liked the idea.
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May 29, 2021 17:18
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Jazerus posted:the factories are supposed to be "unprofitable". they are being run for the benefit of the people not the state, to produce goods for internal consumption. feeding internal consumption and getting industrial points to become/stay a GP are by far the most important role factories play throughout most of the campaign for most tags in V2; you might make more in tax revenue from a late-game LF economy, but it's not flatly superior because the capitalists are very stupid and producing for profit is very volatile so factories close all the time and have to be reopened by pouring money in, which also takes them back to level 1, wasting even more money, and your craftsmen will be constantly facing cycles of unemployment that waste the potential of their labor. admittedly i haven't played as a top-5 great power like the UK or Prussia in years so maybe the conditions are there for a smoothly running LF economy in those tags, but that's a rare exception founded more on the fruits of imperialism than anything superior about LF itself yeah basically the only way L-F works for you is if you already industrialize a solid enough base that your factories become a large enough portion of the production of any given good that they're too big (and efficient) to fail, and that their collapse would herald the end times of the global economy
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May 29, 2021 17:34
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Yeah, I think if it's not a focus of the game the atrocities are better left out or not get too detailed. Like already in case of real-world strategy game we ignore the personal tragedies our decisions cause. It's futile to try to list every tragedy that have happened (or might have happened during the timeframe) and covering only specific events may reinforce the idea that empires are inherently good, just cause some problems at specific points. So I think the best way to do it all is to use more cynical language highlighting immorality of states. You have a glimpses of it in EU4 diplomatic messages and terms, the hame doesn't say "our faith", it uses the term "true faith". Victoria 3 might also use math showing colonialism making people poor and miserable. And not just colonialism, it was a time of people realising that societies all around made people miserable through class divide, oppression, ecology and so on.
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May 29, 2021 17:35
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Raenir Salazar posted:This isn't historically accurate, first, the gulags were used to develop the remote reaches of siberia; so at a minimum different socialist governments could use them to spur development of their frontier zones; provided something like up to on average 50% of the USSR's raw materials There's also famous projects like the Arkhangelsk canal and other large Soviet engineering projects that used forced labor (in a very ruthless and callous manner). As you say the gulags were far from economically irrelevant to the Soviet Union, which made extensive use of forced labor to develop its industry, especially in more remote areas. Also of note that when it came to developing distant regions, the Russian Empire actually operated on a similar model, but on a far lesser scale, where alot of people who went on to colonize Siberia and the Far East were forcibly transferred there for various reasons, basically as slaves.
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May 29, 2021 18:15
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Mans posted:playing as communist Russia and having to deal with creating every single factory myself was hell. I literally let the social democrats coup me just so I could focus on other things. I hope this changes in Vic 3 I hate to say this man, but if you aint ready to do tedious pointless micro on every timetable, you aint ready for victoria. I'm kidding. I agree entirely. They should let you auto manage that
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May 29, 2021 18:17
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also if they are making state capitalism the default that really makes managing pops less meaingful
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May 29, 2021 18:42
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Never played Vicky 2, but having now read this LP: https://lparchive.org/Victoria-II/ my spergbones are aching for this so bad. Wiz did a bang-up job on Stellaris and I will be massaging the pre-order button as soon as I can.
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May 29, 2021 18:57
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Vasukhani posted:also if they are making state capitalism the default that really makes managing pops less meaingful I’m not sure how under LF government you did basically nothing and hoped it worked out
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May 29, 2021 19:21
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Actually thinking about it you didn’t meaningfully interact with your pops in Vicky 2 no matter your government which is weird.
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May 29, 2021 19:28
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CharlestheHammer posted:Actually thinking about it you didn’t meaningfully interact with your pops in Vicky 2 no matter your government which is weird. Actually I think you'll find that mobilizing my country and killing off a million pops over a useless slice of land counts as an interaction
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May 29, 2021 19:40
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CharlestheHammer posted:Actually thinking about it you didn’t meaningfully interact with your pops in Vicky 2 no matter your government which is weird. It isn't weird, but also ThatBasqueGuy posted:Actually I think you'll find that mobilizing my country and killing off a million pops over a useless slice of land counts as an interaction
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May 29, 2021 19:40
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Jazerus posted:the factories are supposed to be "unprofitable". they are being run for the benefit of the people not the state, to produce goods for internal consumption. feeding internal consumption and getting industrial points to become/stay a GP are by far the most important role factories play throughout most of the campaign for most tags in V2; you might make more in tax revenue from a late-game LF economy, but it's not flatly superior because the capitalists are very stupid and producing for profit is very volatile so factories close all the time and have to be reopened by pouring money in, which also takes them back to level 1, wasting even more money, and your craftsmen will be constantly facing cycles of unemployment that waste the potential of their labor. admittedly i haven't played as a top-5 great power like the UK or Prussia in years so maybe the conditions are there for a smoothly running LF economy in those tags, but that's a rare exception founded more on the fruits of imperialism than anything superior about LF itself Well no; they are unprofitable because of a number of reasons; such as a mismatch between the cost of input goods and output goods because the global economy doesn't easily organically produce more goods to meet demand; if you're playing factory clicker; you skyrocket the demand for goods and until techs are researched to boost production of rgo goods, the factories become unprofitable because they are unable to purchase input goods. Or the cost of the inputs are unsustainable compared to the cost of the finished products. Regardless though, planned economy/state capitalism where all you're doing is trying to produce more stuff without concern for whether they are meeting the needs of pops doesn't produce as much Industry score as efficiently as LF/interventionist; basically the USA can make LF work because of higher literacy and constant immigration and you don't even have to interact with the economy and can do other things.
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May 29, 2021 19:42
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CharlestheHammer posted:I’m not sure how under LF government you did basically nothing and hoped it worked out Having a successful LF economy was a litmus test whether you did well or not on a strategic level. I always started with state capitalism to jumpstart my industry, and then switched to LF when I thought that my population could handle it and all the important resources were in my common market. Thing about LF was that it was cheaper for your capitalists to maintain and expand the economy, than it was for you in similar circumstances while having state capitalism or planed economy. All you had to do was to provide the basics, and not care when they try to build a 5th fertilizer factories in a row, when the 4 before them failed almost immediately.
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May 29, 2021 19:50
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Raenir Salazar posted:This isn't historically Making blatant direct alusions to gulag in the game is whitewashing them because you're turning them into positive traits (using them to develop the interior and increase raw material production???) There's no such direct, blatant mechanics on vic2 and for good reason. You don't put Boers in concentration camps for +2 political stability , you don't put Union soldiers in horrifying camps as the confederates for 5% moralle, you don't put minorities in camps as a fascist government for a +10% tax revenue for five years. There are very obvious reasons for this, I shouldn't have to develop on this. In an ideal vic3, you won't either have a feudal, splintered Japan nor gulags, because both contribute nothing outside of the really fanatic groups that think it's really important to roleplay as some very specific people.
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May 29, 2021 20:05
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CharlestheHammer posted:Actually thinking about it you didn’t meaningfully interact with your pops in Vicky 2 no matter your government which is weird. Wasn't this the whole point of regional focuses? Like you needed to encourage capitalists and clerks/workers
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May 29, 2021 20:09
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CharlestheHammer posted:Actually thinking about it you didn’t meaningfully interact with your pops in Vicky 2 no matter your government which is weird. I never managed to figure out what I was supposed to meaningfully interact with in V2.
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May 29, 2021 20:19
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I think that it would be a grave mistake to give Vicky 3 the kind of forced labor and genocide simulation present in stellaris.
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May 29, 2021 20:52
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the whole point was getting 0.1% Capitalists 2% Clergy 5% Soldiers 0.2% Officers 1% Beauracrats not sure what game you guys were playing
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May 29, 2021 21:07
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VostokProgram posted:I think that it would be a grave mistake to give Vicky 3 the kind of forced labor and genocide simulation present in stellaris. Sorry, people are cruel, brutal monsters most of the time. The lack of those things would be really ahistorical, and they're more important to the time described than money or technological advancement.
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May 29, 2021 21:11
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Vasukhani posted:the whole point was getting 0.1% Capitalists 2% Clergy 5% Soldiers 0.2% Officers 1% Beauracrats yeah my most vivid v2 memories are open palm slamming the clergy focus button and laying railroad like carpet
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May 29, 2021 21:11
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Vasukhani posted:the whole point was getting 0.1% Capitalists 2% Clergy 5% Soldiers 0.2% Officers 1% Beauracrats 4% clergy and .7% capitalist or bust  (Also 4% clerks for rp)
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May 29, 2021 21:13
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TwoQuestions posted:Sorry, people are cruel, brutal monsters most of the time. The lack of those things would be really ahistorical, and they're more important to the time described than money or technological advancement. Well good news you will be brutal and cold just like you are in all map games
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May 29, 2021 21:14
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In the demo for Victoria 2 released before the game came out there was apparently a way to unlock the whole thing fairly easily. Anyone remember how that worked?
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May 29, 2021 21:16
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Vicky 1 Ricky > Vicky 2
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May 29, 2021 21:21
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I am extremely excited for this game and had no idea it was even a twinkle in Paradox’s eye, thank you for this thread.
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May 29, 2021 21:38
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TwoQuestions posted:Sorry, people are cruel, brutal monsters most of the time. The lack of those things would be really ahistorical, and they're more important to the time described than money or technological advancement. You can address these things without gamifying them.
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May 29, 2021 22:32
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I demand all games set before 2015 or so have a 'persecute the gays' button that gives you penalties if you don't press it every so often because everyone thinks you're gay. It's historical and it is more important than money or technological advancement to some people.
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May 29, 2021 22:43
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VostokProgram posted:You can address these things without gamifying them. There isn't anything inherently "wrong" with using games to teach complex subjects. Again see Trains. Mans posted:Again with the historically accuracy argument. The game ends in 1936 and you want mechanics of anti colonialism that developed after the second world war and the end of the soviet block which happened sixty years later. The game ending in 1936 doesn't mean anything because a socialist government could in theory exist much earlier (because the game is expected to support alt-hist outcomes!); additionally many nations in theory could have won their independence much earlier. We have the South American nations that are independent before 1836 that with a modded start, could be a playable process if it started earlier. You're also misreading my arguments, I suggest you reread them, I am not suggesting giving them entirely positive traits; but as part of a complete and hollistic system that analyzes the themes of the period and models why independence movements formed (and they certainly did in this time period and were in Victoria 2), or why people rose up against abusive and tyrannical forms of government. If you don't want to discuss the topic then don't. Being a strawmaning silly person doesn't make your position credible; I like discussing game mechanics and game design because I work in the games industry and like working on game projects; again you don't have to discuss it if you don't want to, but if you're going to argue then well, actually argue with arguments. You're wrong that "they" (since you're now mistakingly alluding to previous topics you also seem to have no interest in fairly discussing) would contribute nothing. Hollistic well working systems that provide engaging and challenging gameplay are always worth discussing and considering. Lots of people like to contribute and discuss their ideas in this thread, maybe don't gatekeep the discussion and maybe instead try harder to engage it in good faith?
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May 29, 2021 22:43
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Raenir Salazar posted:There isn't anything inherently "wrong" with using games to teach complex subjects. Again see Trains. am I missing something or are you comparing trains to slavery
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May 29, 2021 22:45
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yikes! posted:am I missing something or are you comparing trains to slavery It's the name of a boardgame that uses game mechanics to teach lessons about the holocaust.
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May 29, 2021 22:47
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Raenir Salazar posted:It's the name of a boardgame that uses game mechanics to teach lessons about the holocaust. It's not a very interesting commentary, it's quite literally "game thing you were doing, actually lol you were running the holocaust trains, owned"
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May 29, 2021 22:50
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I remember the Civil War in Victoria 2 expansion being bonkers how powerful they made the South in comparison to the North at the beginning of the scenario.
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May 29, 2021 22:51
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You can’t teach people morals through game mechanics. People don’t play Crusader Kings and go wow royal politics where hosed up. They instead just play the murder simulator fairly straight or treat it as a joke Like I killed that two year old for being slow XD
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May 29, 2021 22:56
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Panzeh posted:It's not a very interesting commentary, it's quite literally "game thing you were doing, actually lol you were running the holocaust trains, owned" Most of the discussion I've seen around it in the games journalism press I don't think suggests it isn't "very interesting commentary", but regardless in terms of a philosophy I don't think it can be argue that you can't or shouldn't ever use game mechanics to attempt to broach complex subjects and it is just one example of many that already exist. We already have a game that represents slavery, the fox is already in the henhouse, and that it presents perhaps the wrong lesson about the period for slavery/forced labour to only be presented sequestered away in the USA and then eliminated in the Civil War; when all forms of government partook in it in one way or another and mars irrecoverably the time period. It's again a little weird that you can play as various flavours of authoritarian forms of governments in Victoria without much or any in game representation as to what that entails. CharlestheHammer posted:You can’t teach people morals through game mechanics. People don’t play Crusader Kings and go wow royal politics where hosed up. I mean, games are just a form of interactive fiction. And aesop's fables were one of the early examples of teaching people morals through story telling; thus, its fairly easy to point out that indeed you can probably teach people moral agency through games. The very act of playing in team based sports is an example of this. A very quick google also suggests this is something that's widely accepted in game design. e: Zedhe Khoja posted:The only game that ever taught me a valuable moral lesson was DF, which taught me that rich people are psychotic assholes and their government ordained hitmen are even worse and both should be magma'd with extreme prejudice. One would assume if one game can indeed teach a valuable moral lesson, see the video The Conquest of Ale then by induction other games can also do so. 
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May 29, 2021 23:02
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The only game that ever taught me a valuable moral lesson was DF, which taught me that rich people are psychotic assholes and their government ordained hitmen are even worse and both should be magma'd with extreme prejudice.
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May 29, 2021 23:04
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Using Trains as your go to when most people consider it a terrible example of what you are arguring in favor for and a joke is funny
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May 29, 2021 23:31
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