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The "Season 6B" stuff is right up there with Chinball's "Timeless Child" poo poo in the "particularly stupid" stakes, because Robert loving Holmes himself said the only reason the Second Doctor said stuff about doing missions for the Time Lords was because he'd actually forgotten (probably due to his health starting to get bad, and probably also because he wasn't an obsessive DW fanboy who kept a meticulous knowledge of the show's entire history) that it was the Third Doctor they used to send out to do stuff for them.
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May 29, 2021 02:21
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Sydney Bottocks posted:The "Season 6B" stuff is right up there with Chinball's "Timeless Child" poo poo in the "particularly stupid" stakes, because Robert loving Holmes himself said the only reason the Second Doctor said stuff about doing missions for the Time Lords was because he'd actually forgotten (probably due to his health starting to get bad, and probably also because he wasn't an obsessive DW fanboy who kept a meticulous knowledge of the show's entire history) that it was the Third Doctor they used to send out to do stuff for them. We're not doing death of the author? Or is the Doctor still from Venus?
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May 29, 2021 02:23
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Also the whole reason Holmes tried to suggest the 4th Doctor was near the end of all his regenerations was because he really wanted to write a story about the Doctor being on his last regeneration (Moffat had the same desire, and managed to pull it off because he was also in charge of the show). He snuck in references to this in Caves of Androzani as well, with his intention being that 5 felt like something was off and this time he might not regenerate. I doubt he was really fixated on trying to generate an entire new backstory or anything, he just clearly wanted to write that story and didn't want to (and knew he couldn't) wait another 7 actors worth of the show to have a go at it. This was rightfully ignored, and especially over the last few years of the revival multiple, multiple, multiple stories have hammered home again and again that it all started with Hartnell. The "problem" that Chibnall appears to be trying to "solve" with his Timeless Child bullshit just further confuses everything and doesn't even have the benefit of sitting in the middle of REALLY good stories like Brain of Morbius and Caves of Androzani.
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May 29, 2021 03:45
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Sydney Bottocks posted:The "Season 6B" stuff is right up there with Chinball's "Timeless Child" poo poo in the "particularly stupid" stakes, because Robert loving Holmes himself said the only reason the Second Doctor said stuff about doing missions for the Time Lords was because he'd actually forgotten (probably due to his health starting to get bad, and probably also because he wasn't an obsessive DW fanboy who kept a meticulous knowledge of the show's entire history) that it was the Third Doctor they used to send out to do stuff for them. I can imagine the aneurysm Ian Levine had while they were filming The Two Doctors, since you know this egregious continuity error would have pissed him off immensely, yet it was his beloved Robert Holmes writing it and there was no way he would dare correct him!
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May 29, 2021 04:57
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Don't forget, a lot of the "Season 6B" stuff was expanded on by Terrance Dicks in his Who novels, and by god, if it's good enough for Uncle Terry, it's good enough for me!
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May 29, 2021 05:40
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Davros1 posted:by god, if it's good enough for Uncle Terry, it's good enough for me! A fine philosophy to live by 
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May 29, 2021 06:25
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Didn't Terrance Dicks write Warmonger tho?
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May 29, 2021 06:30
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Open Source Idiom posted:Didn't Terrance Dicks write Warmonger tho? Peri getting threatened with gang rape, that's our Uncle Terry~
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May 29, 2021 07:19
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Homora Gaykemi posted:Peri getting threatened with gang rape, that's our Uncle Terry~ How else would we know that the Fifth Doctor loves "a bit of rape".
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May 29, 2021 07:53
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Open Source Idiom posted:Didn't Terrance Dicks write Warmonger tho? I have never heard of it, just looked it up, and it sounds terrible and like the kind of story Terrance Dicks would have rejected back when he was script editor.... except he wrote it 
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May 29, 2021 10:42
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Jerusalem posted:Mobius Doctors from The Brain of Mobius, and just hosed everything up gigantically in the process. Morbius! A sponge has more life than he!
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May 29, 2021 11:59
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https://twitter.com/samiraahmeduk/status/1392145653439082498
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May 29, 2021 12:49
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I like El Sandifer's theory that Warmonger is Dicks parodying Eric Saward.
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May 29, 2021 13:13
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Morbius! A sponge has more life than he! I swear I gently caress this up EVERY time because I write it one way, stop and think,"I got that wrong last time!" and change it.... and get it wrong. Then the whole thing repeats itself. How many times, Jerusalem? How many mistakes have you made!?! The audio quality is awful but that was a really fascinating way she put it all together and explained it. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 13:41 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 13:38
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Unrelated to the discussion of 6B, but I keep seeing promos for it on Pluto and realize I haven't seen it myself. I know there's a few of you fellow Rifftax/MSTers in here as well - is The 5 Doctors riff worth a watching if I can ever find a copy? I know they're not allowed to release it (I think it's the only live show they can't?) but seeing Pluto running ads for some reason makes me think they may have passed that hurdle. Can't find much on Google other than the 2017 stuff though. Edit: Also, if you have seen it - how enjoyable do you imagine it would be to someone on the fringes of Doctor Who? The person I watch all my MST/Rifftrax stuff with hasn't seen any real Who before, but knows the concept from being around me a lot.
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May 29, 2021 13:43
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Sydney Bottocks posted:The "Season 6B" stuff is right up there with Chinball's "Timeless Child" poo poo in the "particularly stupid" stakes, because Robert loving Holmes himself said the only reason the Second Doctor said stuff about doing missions for the Time Lords was because he'd actually forgotten (probably due to his health starting to get bad, and probably also because he wasn't an obsessive DW fanboy who kept a meticulous knowledge of the show's entire history) that it was the Third Doctor they used to send out to do stuff for them. 6B is just a slightly more elaborate version of the usual off-screen stories, it doesn't radically change core elements of the character like the Timeless Child stuff.
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May 29, 2021 13:47
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Doctor Spaceman posted:6B is just a slightly more elaborate version of the usual off-screen stories, it doesn't radically change core elements of the character like the Timeless Child stuff. Oh yeah, the whole Timeless Child thing still beats it in the "stupid thing nobody asked for" stakes. 6B was Robert Holmes forgetting something, TC is Chibnall desperately wanting to make his permanent mark on televised DW lore.
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May 29, 2021 14:10
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I didn't get the weird obsession with killing everyone on Gallifrey all over again.
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May 29, 2021 14:23
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When the Doctor uncovers the other Doctor's buried Tardis I thought Chibnall might finally be doing something interesting. Boy did the monkey's paw really curl on that one.
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May 29, 2021 14:28
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:When the Doctor uncovers the other Doctor's buried Tardis I thought Chibnall might finally be doing something interesting. Boy did the monkey's paw really curl on that one. Monkey's middle finger
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May 29, 2021 14:49
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:When the Doctor uncovers the other Doctor's buried Tardis I thought Chibnall might finally be doing something interesting. Boy did the monkey's paw really curl on that one. I mean, it's pretty interesting, and I really liked Jo Martin's take on the Doctor. It's just that what it lead to was horribly disappointing.
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May 29, 2021 14:53
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According to some comics from like, the 70s, the Second Doctor got sent to Earth and became a celebrity solving unsolved mysteries, then some Time Lords disguised as scarecrows jumped him and that's when he regenerated, which makes the opening of Spearhead from Space make no sense. I do find it funny about the tattoo thing being because the director of Spearhead from Space really, really liked the shower in the house they were shooting in, and insisted that the Doctor should take a shower even though it wasn't in the script, and that's why you can see Pertwee's old navy tattoo. Jo Martin was great, but the Ruth Doctor thing is such a mess that it should be quietly dropped or retconned away. Just say she was the Valeyard manipulating both the Doctor and the Master, in a "you both got a whole new cycle of regenerations, I only got one, and had to fight for it" thing. It's not like the franchise hasn't dropped bad ideas and never mentioned them again to pretend they didn't happen before - like the Doctor being the Other, the Master and the Doctor being brothers/two halves of the same being, or the Doctor being half human - if it hurts storytelling, just drop it. Plus killing off the Time Lords undermines all the interesting stuff Moffat did with them. Having the Time Lords in a weakened state, wondering where they should go as a culture now is a lot more interesting than 'The Master killed them all off screen somehow'. OldMemes fucked around with this message at 15:16 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 15:14
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OldMemes posted:According to some comics from like, the 70s, the Second Doctor got sent to Earth and became a celebrity solving unsolved mysteries, then some Time Lords disguised as scarecrows jumped him and that's when he regenerated, which makes the opening of Spearhead from Space make no sense. I do find it funny about the tattoo thing being because the director of Spearhead from Space really, really liked the shower in the house they were shooting in, and insisted that the Doctor should take a shower even though it wasn't in the script, and that's why you can see Pertwee's old navy tattoo. This is a really good post.
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May 29, 2021 15:44
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https://twitter.com/TheJazNetwork/status/1398556043312050179?s=20
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May 29, 2021 16:44
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I really like the idea that The Doctor and The Master are just straight up the same exact person on different regens. Then again I'd also like it if literally everyone was a Doctor Who regen and the Who universe is just Doctors Whos experiencing themselves.
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May 29, 2021 18:03
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Khanstant posted:I really like the idea that The Doctor and The Master are just straight up the same exact person on different regens. Then again I'd also like it if literally everyone was a Doctor Who regen and the Who universe is just Doctors Whos experiencing themselves. That's the story Predestination is based on right?
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May 29, 2021 18:15
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OldMemes posted:Plus killing off the Time Lords undermines all the interesting stuff Moffat did with them. Having the Time Lords in a weakened state, wondering where they should go as a culture now is a lot more interesting than 'The Master killed them all off screen somehow'. Absolutely. I didn't even need to necessarily see them ever again, Moffat writing the Doctor saving everybody in Day of the Doctor is beautiful, and it's kind of great and perfect that it then all goes back to zero with 12 basically going,"I do not give the slightlest gently caress whatsoever about your Time Lord politics and manipulation bullshit Jesus Christ gently caress off" and just grabbing Clara and taking off. Then Chibnall just... kills every single one of them (including all the kids made a big deal of in Day of the Doctor?) and the Doctor is just kinda.... "Oh, that's unpleasant" and then it basically apparently has no impact, even with that stupid Time Lord Cybermen bullshit. I really, really want to give Chibnall the benefit of the doubt and assume he's trying to pull off a Moffat style "swerve" where he goes in a (usually pretty obvious) other direction to what has explicitly been said, but the greater length between seasons, less episodes AND the pandemic have put waaaaaay too much time between that cliffhanger and new episodes (and the one we got barely mentions it AT ALL!). Also yeah, Jo Martin is really loving great and I have no issue with her at all, she's just unfortunately the face of a - at the moment - really loving terrible storyline idea.
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May 29, 2021 22:43
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I did like the Time Lords finally getting fed up of Rassilon's nonsense after all the awful stuff he put them through. Retconning in the War Doctor made previous stories richer: it gave the Eighth Doctor a fittingly bittersweet ending, added more context to the Ninth and Tenth versions, gave us a great John Hurt performance (and audios) and set up some plot threads that were explored with Peter Calpadi's Doctor. The Timeless Child just makes things a more confusing mess. I mean, the Other doesn't really change much except 'oh The Doctor might have some DNA from some bloke who threw himself into a loom once'. A retcon should add to a story, not take away. Remember the bit where 12 is given the co-ordinates to Gallifrey by Missy....then he breaks down as he finds out she was lying and there's nothing there? 13 being written to have no reaction to it is just letting Whittaker down as an actor. Let her get angry. Don't write her as quirky and nonthreatening all the time! The Doctor is meant to have a bit of an edge, and skirt the odd moral line. Random thought - also the Gat character being pre-First Doctor and pre-Time War makes no sense, because isn't Gallifrey meant to have a 'relative' present? I.e. it's always 'now', so it's past and future are out of sync with the rest of the universe. Or something. Gat was cool, she deserved better.
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May 30, 2021 00:04
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OldMemes posted:Random thought - also the Gat character being pre-First Doctor and pre-Time War makes no sense, because isn't Gallifrey meant to have a 'relative' present? I.e. it's always 'now', so it's past and future are out of sync with the rest of the universe. They've never explicitly said so but it certainly makes the most sense. A big deal was made out of the fact during the RTD years that without Time Lords around, things were a lot messier/less structured because they used to maintain/guard (often overzealously and almost always to retain their own superior status) the proper flow of time in the Universe. They were "hands-off" in the sense that they didn't get involved in the day-to-day dealings of the Universe, but they made sure there weren't temporal glitches/paradoxes/mistakes, and if they spotted a race starting to get into a position to potentially one day challenge their status as top dogs they'd take steps to prevent that from happening (they simply didn't account for the fact that the Daleks are loving insanely stubborn).
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May 30, 2021 00:08
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I greatly disliked Moffat's run on the show, but I give him full credit for his idea to create the War Doctor. As he correctly said himself, he couldn't see the handsome, dashing Eighth Doctor being the one to ultimately destroy Gallifrey and the Daleks; and then when Eccleston declined to return for the 50th anniversary, he hit upon the idea of a "lost" regeneration between Eight and Nine, the memory of which the Doctor had subconsciously buried in order to move past the trauma of the Time War. It was an absolutely brilliant idea and I think DW is all the richer for it (plus we got that webisode where we finally got to see Eight's regeneration scene).
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May 30, 2021 00:34
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Moffat's run with Calpadi was much stronger than his run with Smith. Mainly because his overarching story arc was better executed. The 'silence' stuff became way too confusingly told. The Missy stuff was ace, and I liked the Clara stuff....mostly.Jerusalem posted:They've never explicitly said so but it certainly makes the most sense. Yeah I thought that it was whenever the Doctor went to Gallifrey, he always goes to the relative present - so Time Lords can encounter each other out of order in the larger universe, but whenever anyone goes to Gallifrey, they always go to 'Now', like you can't go into Gallifrey's past or future. I've not listened to the Gallifrey audios, mind. I do like that the Time Lords keep giving Rassilon power, despite that fact that he's openly terrible at everything. Then again, the Time Lords making the worst decisions possible is a long running part of the series.
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May 30, 2021 00:42
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OldMemes posted:
It is a nice parallel to the Daleks, who keep having to turn back to Davros when they're flustered, despite their continual attempts to murder the bastard. It also shows how both species are so tethered to their past.
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May 30, 2021 01:51
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OldMemes posted:Plus killing off the Time Lords undermines all the interesting stuff Moffat did with them. Having the Time Lords in a weakened state, wondering where they should go as a culture now is a lot more interesting than 'The Master killed them all off screen somehow'. There’s also the fact that we know they’ll come back eventually, just as they did before, so killing them off again will feel even more pointless.
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May 30, 2021 02:38
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the stunningly camp Cybermen with Time Lord collars was almost worth killing the gits off again
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May 30, 2021 02:52
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Rhyno posted:That's the story Predestination is based on right? Not sure and couldn't find the doctor who episode or story with that name to compare. I was mostly referencing some short story I remember where the whole bit was that God was every person in the world living different lives. Someone dies, they're in heaven talking to God, but surprise they are god and so is everybody else and they get sent back to an earth life to live as someone else, so God was every criminal and every victim at the same time, etc etc. I assume that version was derivative of something else though, fun idea.
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May 30, 2021 03:44
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Khanstant posted:Not sure and couldn't find the doctor who episode or story with that name to compare. I was mostly referencing some short story I remember where the whole bit was that God was every person in the world living different lives. Someone dies, they're in heaven talking to God, but surprise they are god and so is everybody else and they get sent back to an earth life to live as someone else, so God was every criminal and every victim at the same time, etc etc. I assume that version was derivative of something else though, fun idea. Predestination is a movie which is based on a Heinlein short story in which due to time travel all the characters are actually the same person.
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May 30, 2021 06:58
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OldMemes posted:Plus killing off the Time Lords undermines all the interesting stuff Moffat did with them. Having the Time Lords in a weakened state, wondering where they should go as a culture now is a lot more interesting than 'The Master killed them all off screen somehow'. Not only that, we haven't seen much of Time Lord/Gallifreyan society since they were brought back. Imagine the Doctor walking the streets of their domed city, instead of going to a barn in the desert or dark rooms, seeing citizens instead of soldiers? I mean, be careful what you wish for and all, less is more, keep the mystery etc but killing them off again closes all those potential stories.
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May 30, 2021 14:09
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Organza Quiz posted:Predestination is a movie which is based on a Heinlein short story in which due to time travel all the characters are actually the same person. OH wow, I kinda wish I had read the story and seen the movie before reading synopsis for both. That's a way better version of the story I was referencing, cuts out the saccharine after-life-god bullshit. I've thought before about using time travel to gently caress yourself, who hasn't, but I didn't take the extra steps to figure out how to impregnate and birth myself. drat. I reckon the Futurama episode about something similar was inspired by that story. Astroman posted:I mean, be careful what you wish for and all, less is more, keep the mystery etc but killing them off again closes all those potential stories. I feel like the Timelords were there, then they were gone, then they were back, gone again, stuck in a time war loop, back again, etc etc. Here, there, anywhere. What's the difference, bring em back, send em away, whatever emotion you need the Doctor to express just flip that "Timelords exist" switch. Timelord Frustration Tangent: Now I know Timelords were established in the ancient times of Doctor Who and it's quite normal to long time Whoers that Timelords are literally just a bunch of fuddy duddy british humans -- but that reveal in the modern series was a legit reveal for me and the biggest disappointment of the franchise for me so far, despite really having no excuse for the expectations I had for myself. I guess I was still just really holding out that even though the Doctor always looked like some regular person, that it was just a Choice (for most of the usual reasons any alien is ever human looking). I was hoping amongst themselves on their own planet they'd kick back with their true forms, with all their cool alien biology and frilly tentacles and stuff on display. Naw, they're literally just regular human beings with a bonus heart and a superpower (which turns out to be some poo poo they stole and cant take credit or real ownership of anyway) Doesn't help their society is just lovely and really pretty stupid overall. Way shittier and goofier than you'd think for people who can command time & space, can regenerate after death, have the ability to find the best elements of governance and society throughout all of universal history, then can go back in time, implement, then go ahead in time to directly evaluate results... like, should have a pretty incredible civilization with all that available to them... right? Nope, just one incredibly unimpressive city on ugly planet filled with the exact same composition of doofuses you'd find on earth anywhere. They do have cool hats/shoulderpadcapes though.
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May 30, 2021 18:36
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Predestination is a great film, watch it anyways.
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May 30, 2021 19:06
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There is a theory of the universe that postulates that the entirety of creation is just a single electron going backwards and forwards in time.
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May 30, 2021 20:11
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