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Khanstant posted:Timelord Frustration Tangent: Yeah, as someone who only knows the lore from the TV show from late 90s onward, but mostly from 2005 on, the Timelords seem just wrong. Like they are meant to be these super intelligent species that have attained near enlightenment, until the Daleks gently caress them up, but look to be a military dictatorship. You have the inner palace city filled with the ruling military, a ghost library complex that will kill you if you enter below them, and then third world desert huts within walking distance. And we only see one city, nothing about the rest of the world. And all non-military people we do see, supposed time lord citizens, dress like medieval peasants. They don't seem to be the sort of people the Doctor would be created from.
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May 30, 2021 20:35
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Well, that’s why the Doctor is a rebel - Time Lord life isn’t for them, which is why the First Doctor stole the TARDIS in the first place.
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May 30, 2021 20:43
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TinTower posted:There is a theory of the universe that postulates that the entirety of creation is just a single electron going backwards and forwards in time. All the electrons and positrons are (or would be, rather), but that breaks down because there are more electrons than positrons as far as we can tell. It was a Feynman joke suggestion iirc. MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 21:00 on May 30, 2021 |
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May 30, 2021 20:57
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https://twitter.com/EricIdle/status/1399063906023186435?s=20 https://twitter.com/LittleWhoGirl/status/1398945520123584516?s=20 Davros1 fucked around with this message at 21:18 on May 30, 2021 |
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May 30, 2021 21:14
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happyhippy posted:They don't seem to be the sort of people the Doctor would be created from. Ah, well now we know it was they who were created from the Doctor. (really hope they change this whole shtick) Doctor isn't a rebel, the Time Lords are the malformed copies, content to use their godlike power to make a really lame civilization and get locked in an endless war with trash can cyborgs. Come to think of it, a lot of the biggest or most commonly mentioned species tend to really fail at making utopia for themselves, especially the one called Utopia. What are the most utopic time periods for a given civilization in DWverse? I reckon most that get names get them because a story deals directly with them, which I guess will often mean finding out that anything appearing to be utopia has a dark secret all along. Though maybe some that are just referenced and never visited or broken down. TinTower posted:There is a theory of the universe that postulates that the entirety of creation is just a single electron going backwards and forwards in time. I'd recently latched onto the idea everything is just a momentary construct in a boltzmann brain in the late-stage universe, but I kind of like this one even more. You go little electron, such hustle! I am honoured to have been composed of you for a time.
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May 30, 2021 21:17
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happyhippy posted:Yeah, as someone who only knows the lore from the TV show from late 90s onward, but mostly from 2005 on, the Timelords seem just wrong. Well, in the new show you're seeing them after a massive war. They're not at their best.
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May 30, 2021 21:26
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The lore of the Time War is really cool. By the end of the Time War, the Time Lords were desperate: the laws of reality were breaking down from sheer stress of constantly being changed, most species who were aware of the conflict had broken ties with Gallifrey, horrifying eldritch beings were taking advantage of the chaos, changing the Doctor into a darker and more aggressive form hadn't been the game changer they'd hoped for, the Master was running around basically unchecked, Rassilon had been resurrected and started a coup, and they were stuck in an endless arms race with the Daleks. It wasn't going well before the Doctor used the Moment. I do like how previous stories were retconned into being part of the Time War due to time travel - the spark being the Daleks discovering the Doctor's role in Genesis of the Daleks (which was caused later in an attempt to stop the War) and the destruction of Skaro being another. Then Big Finish's The Apocalypse Element was name checked by Russell T. Davies as a part of the War, which was a nice little nod. I can't remember where I read it, but I think Big Finish's Gallifrey series is meant to be doing stories set after it leaves normal spacetime at some point in the future?
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May 30, 2021 21:32
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Dabir posted:Well, in the new show you're seeing them after a massive war. They're not at their best. I let some retrospectives of various past Doctors play while at work or whatever a while ago and I remember the Timelords poking up a few times in it, didn't see Gallifrey though. The Timelords seemed at a glance similar, maybe more casual kind of being bureaucratic on the TARDIS or something so I can't judge either way yet. Were they cooler in the old days?
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May 30, 2021 22:21
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The first appearance of the Time Lords: basically gods, who even the Doctor is terrified of, and he's one of them. The second appearance of the Time Lords: an interfering bureaucrat in a bowler hat, the Doctor's reaction being an exasperated "Oh, for gently caress's sake".
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May 30, 2021 23:40
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Depended on the Doctor for a while, but when Four came along they settled into these ridiculous, stuffy, ceremony-obsessed good-old-boys in giant collars. This was the first appearance of that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWzrRcSPlKY
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May 30, 2021 23:41
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lol at the Doctor putting together his space rifle to do an assassination on some old wizard. I hope we get a series one day where a Doctor's new regen turns out to be evil and when Doctor kills the Master, we get a season of following a new slightly-good Master and a companion as they thwart the Doctor through time.
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May 30, 2021 23:46
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The Time Lords peaked with Maxil.  Khanstant posted:lol at the Doctor putting together his space rifle to do an assassination on some old wizard. But then it wouldn't be Doctor Who? The idea is that regeneration just slightly remixes the personality - the Doctor does have some darker moments in general. We already had an evil Doctor with the Valeyard, and writers are still trying to figure that one out.
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May 31, 2021 00:30
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Let's just get Michelle Gomez in to play a Time Lord who calls herself The Doctor and travels around with a companion saving people, and leave it ambiguous whether she's actually the Doctor or whether Missy survived.
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May 31, 2021 01:23
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Sylv looking good these days, still pretty spry. I don't think anyone can top the cool weirdness of pre-Time Lord Gallifrey as portrayed by Mac Platt in Time's Crucible, one of the early Virgin novels. It leans heavily on Andrew Cartmel's Masterplan ideas. It showed them as being an advanced spacefaring civilization in the distant past, the center of an interplanetary multi-species empire. Heroic adventurers explored, fought monsters like the vampires, they were all telepaths and led by a Priestess-Empress called the Pythia who could see the future. They had a populous, teeming planet of cities and people. Their telepathy was more than what the Doctor and other Time Lords have shown, it was open minds, all the time in a sort of internet. Rassilon was a young scientist from a rich family who was diametrically opposed to the Pythia, believing in science and reason. They were developing their first time travel experiments. The contrast to their current, ossified observers locked away from the universe like gods is stark and interesting. It is where the much maligned Looms came from but the idea wasn't so the Doctor could be sexless. It was basically that Rassilon and his Science types "won" a pyrrhic victory--they overthrew the Pythia and were no longer chained to her predictions. They invented time travel. But they lost their telepathy, gave up their space empire and connections to the rest of the galaxy, locked themselves inward and became emotionless observers. The Pythia cursed them somehow to be sterile, so only first through Regeneration, and later artificial reproduction (Looms) could they survive as a species, their physical sterility a metaphor for the sterility of their culture and souls. Emotionless, dusty observers. It was a great explanation for what the Doctor was rebelling against, and the idea that they were once like us a cautionary tale and perhaps why he liked humans so much. I also don't think it is entirely where Platt was going, but it really sets them up as an opposite side of the coin to their Time War enemies the Daleks--the Kaleds also lost everything to "win" at the behest of the creator of their new society.
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May 31, 2021 02:27
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I think it definitely would be and I didn't realize/forgot that the character not named the Doctor was a the Doctor (kind of?). What the gently caress is a valeyard anyway, weird word that sounds like it might be a place or thing that I can't find anything for besides that character. The Doctor is already definitely-arguably-evil so I don't think a more openly-evil is that big of a stretch. The Doctor kills, the Doctor mass kills, the Doctor ruins lives unasked and uninvited, the Doctor genocides, the Doctor gets people erased from existence, the Doctor evades justice, the Doctor judges which lifeforms are allowed to exist and compete and how they are permitted to behave. The Doctor decides the value of lives on a whim and just as whimsically involves himself directly in people's lives, histories, cultures, governments. Plus the evilness of Jesus or other demigods and gods who pick and choose what direct meddling and good works they do or not. The Doctor is an interesting character because they do generally try to be Good and do grapple with some of their evil stuff at times, and hey, normally I'd say doing even one genocide was just like, Infinite Evil, can't "make up for doing a genocide" with any quantity philanthropy, right? Credit where credit is due, the Doctor has un-genocided at least one or two species they previously genocided. I reckon that's the only way to make up for a genocide and only for that specific one... and it's only fair people still get to judge you for it, most people go their whole lives never doing a genocide of any kind. A pure evil Doctor probably wouldn't be any more interesting than Master at it's evilest though, then kind of just kind of builds in a big incongruent bit of character history to work around so it is a pretty pointless swap. I guess the Master is afflicted more often with stupid-evil or getting themselves stuck in an evil-corner, but to be fair that's really on the Timelords for their idiotic practice of scarring children's minds and then letting em be mostly immortal
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May 31, 2021 02:32
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Astroman posted:It showed them as being an advanced spacefaring civilization in the distant past, the center of an interplanetary multi-species empire. Heroic adventurers explored, fought monsters like the vampires, they were all telepaths and led by a Priestess-Empress called the Pythia who could see the future. They had a populous, teeming planet of cities and people. Their telepathy was more than what the Doctor and other Time Lords have shown, it was open minds, all the time in a sort of internet They should still look freaky as hell, wings and lots of eyes and stuff, but yeah, this is some cool Time Lording, although I'm pro-undead/vampire seems rude to call em monsters.
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May 31, 2021 02:36
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Khanstant posted:The Doctor is an interesting character because they do generally try to be Good and do grapple with some of their evil stuff at times, and hey, normally I'd say doing even one genocide was just like, Infinite Evil, can't "make up for doing a genocide" with any quantity philanthropy, right? Credit where credit is due, the Doctor has un-genocided at least one or two species they previously genocided. I reckon that's the only way to make up for a genocide and only for that specific one... and it's only fair people still get to judge you for it, most people go their whole lives never doing a genocide of any kind. “The Glorpians have come back. When this whole mess started, there was one less species in the universe.” “Well, there is a time war on, is it possible you miscounted?”
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May 31, 2021 04:39
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See, this is why I like Looms. The Gallifrey stuff from the books (Time's Crucible --> The Also People --> Christmas On A Rational Planet --> Lungbarrow --> Alien Bodies --> The Infinity Doctors --> Where Angels Fear... --> Interference --> The Taking Of Planet 5 --> The Book Of The War --> The Gallifrey Chronicles) is genuinely mad loving cool in a way that none of the BF stuff has really touched (except Marc Platt's Auld Mortality). You can see the influence of it a lot, though.
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May 31, 2021 04:40
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Where are the TimeDukes, TimePrincessess, TimeQueens, TimeEmperors, TimePope, etc? Did the TimeSerfs ever break their chains to become TimeSocialists?
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May 31, 2021 05:14
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Jun 1, 2021 11:42
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Love that comic so much 
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Jun 1, 2021 12:09
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Khanstant posted:Where are the TimeDukes, TimePrincessess, TimeQueens, TimeEmperors, TimePope, etc? I knew I'd read a story from the Virgin range that mentioned "the hated Time Pope", which sent me down a rabbit hole until I found it. quote:There is a clergy on Gallifrey lead by the Supreme Pontiff of Time, known as the Time Pope. He is decapitated during a revolution on Gallifrey that takes place after the Doctors exile, and in which several cardinals are also executed. also quote:The Doctor destroys Helios by throwing a potato at him, which absorbs the vital microwave bands that hold him together. With hindsight a lot of the Virgin stuff wasn't very good, was it?
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Jun 1, 2021 13:53
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Two Owls posted:With hindsight a lot of the Virgin stuff wasn't very good, was it? What do you mean, "with hindsight"?
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Jun 1, 2021 14:18
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The Virgin New Adventures are only treated as semi-canon iirc. Like Big Finish have lifted a few bits and pieces, especially Bernice Summerfield (Big Finish being the house that Benny built), but they've only done a few audios explicitly set in the VA era. The New Adventures being semi-canon and the Eighth Doctor Adventures being non-canon seems about right. I don't see why Looms can't be canon, just retcon it to have people come out of the machines as children rather than adults, and it fits the vibe of Gallifrey.
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Jun 1, 2021 22:16
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Love that the Time Pope's only mention is basically noting the time they decapitated him. Also Helios' civilization living on the "surface" of a sun is just as dumb as his potato defeat.
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Jun 1, 2021 22:43
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The important question is whether the Time Pope’s TARDIS is called the TimePopemobile.
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Jun 2, 2021 02:48
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OldMemes posted:
But then you lose the idea that adults grow up in homes with large, oversized furniture to make them feel like children!
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Jun 2, 2021 04:46
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Fact of the day: https://twitter.com/themindrobber/status/1400001625167642625
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Jun 2, 2021 10:52
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OldMemes posted:The Virgin New Adventures are only treated as semi-canon iirc. Like Big Finish have lifted a few bits and pieces, especially Bernice Summerfield (Big Finish being the house that Benny built), but they've only done a few audios explicitly set in the VA era. I suspect the EDAs aren't explicitly referenced because none of the big EDA writers made the jump to BF, so they never really reference their own stuff. There's no real comment on canon. But even then you've got Steve Lyons referencing Chauteue Aquitaine and a few appearances by the Salations and Galactic Heritage. Iris Wildthyme and her whole mythos originated there too. They don't do anything with Sabbath or Compassion or Faction Paradox because they're owned by Lawrence Miles, and he's onery. Then again, Benny had a brush with The Enemy and The Great Houses in two different stories, so... I dunno. It's still there.
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Jun 2, 2021 11:48
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Nothing is canon, except for stories that are directly contradicted by other stories, which are double-canon.
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Jun 2, 2021 11:54
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Forktoss posted:Nothing-Is Cannon Original title for the De-Mat Gun from The Invasion of Time 
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Jun 2, 2021 12:05
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Open Source Idiom posted:I suspect the EDAs aren't explicitly referenced because none of the big EDA writers made the jump to BF, so they never really reference their own stuff. There's no real comment on canon. Iris Wildthyme's whole thing is that she doesn't make any sense, so that's fine. The way I see it, the Eighth Doctor states that the EDAs take place in an alternative timeline in Zagreus, and only Big Finish companions are mentioned in Night of the Doctor, so they take priority, and Eight's character has had much better development there than the EDAs. Aside from Sam Jones being a bad character, the EDAs didn't start losing their way until after The Ancestor Cell, where the Enemy arc was chopped to pieces and was replaced with arcs that made less and less sense. The Enemy and Faction Paradox might have been a little too abstract and eldritch for Doctor Who, but there was ambition there (and it seems to have carved out an odd little niche as a 'legally distinct for copyright reason' franchise of its own). Then the rest of the range was meandering stuff about the Doctor not having his memories (and not being very bothered about finding them) and crystal skeletons and the like. It feels cleaner just to go TV Movie - (Samson and Gemma) - Charley - Lucie - Liv and beyond - Night of the Doctor. C'rizz is still bad though. Faction Paradox did turn up in a Time Lord Victorious book with 13, of all places. OldMemes fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Jun 2, 2021 |
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Jun 2, 2021 13:20
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They’ve obliquely brought back Faction Paradox in the recent BBC short story compendium The Wintertime Paradox. And 8 mentions Fitz in the novelisation of Day of the Doctor (which has Night as a prologue).
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Jun 2, 2021 13:23
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Everything is canon except for A Fix With Sontarans.
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Jun 2, 2021 13:36
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Canon is such a hilarious concept for Doctor Who, where the very rules of reality are re-written on a semi regular basis. I remember when i was growing up, long after McCoy and long before the new series, I would hoover up any DW books, magazines VHS I could get my hands on. My local library had a book where someone had tried to create a chronology of the universe based on all the old Doctor Who episodes. Even my naive pre-teen self could see this was an absurd idea destined to be a contradictory mess.
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Jun 2, 2021 13:39
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Canon is a loving nuts concept, but it still makes me happy when parts of the universe are referenced. So Vile A Sin's setting made an appearance in a BF 5th Doctor play this year, and it was gloriously gratuitous.
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Jun 2, 2021 14:16
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Open Source Idiom posted:Lawrence Miles Does anyone know what LM's current status is? I Googled him on a whim, and the most recent activity on his Twitter account are some very worrying posts (as in, self-harm kind of worrying) from February of 2020. 
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Jun 2, 2021 14:37
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Does anyone know what LM's current status is? I Googled him on a whim, and the most recent activity on his Twitter account are some very worrying posts (as in, self-harm kind of worrying) from February of 2020. He seems to be doing alright now. He has a backup Twitter account he’s been using: https://twitter.com/the_beasthouse/status/1399500866290335748
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Jun 2, 2021 14:40
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The_Doctor posted:He seems to be doing alright now. He has a backup Twitter account he’s been using: That's a relief, glad to see he's doing a bit better now. 
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Jun 2, 2021 14:48
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Open Source Idiom posted:Canon is a loving nuts concept, but it still makes me happy when parts of the universe are referenced. So Vile A Sin's setting made an appearance in a BF 5th Doctor play this year, and it was gloriously gratuitous. Oh yeah, the TV series was written by all different writers half remembering episodes from ages ago. It's easier to keep track of in the Wiki age, and the BBC do have veto rights over plot points in spin-offs. It's cute when they get things to line up.
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Jun 2, 2021 15:00
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