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paradox give me vicky 3 now and i will say nice things about johan for free
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Jun 1, 2021 23:08
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Cease to Hope posted:I'm not saying that Vic2's economic crash was necessarily a good thing, mind. I just think that a stable, coherent, and easily understood system is ahistorical (and probably not very interesting to play). Frequent crashes that lead to equilibrium that follows booms in boom and bust cycles would be fine until the technology/laws get passed to create a Federal Reserve like institution to stabilize the markets. The problem is if everyone builds factories all the time, and then eliminating the losses (subsidies permanently on at all times so they never go bankrupt and close despite never turning a profit ever) creates a sort of staglflation situation that I think is just as ahistorical but in the opposite direction. Basically I want Vicky to be more robust to enable the market to better self correct with more limited player intervention, and rethink some of the ways the player can directly intervene to be a bit more abstract or locked behind certain techs/laws/etc. So players don't do the most min-maxy optimal thing and instead have more situational circumstances that are different for different nations and situations and not everyone doing the same thing (Build Factories, Turn on Subsidies, Watch Number Go Up). CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah I agree maybe multiplayer should have its own balance system though. Because what’s fun fo PvP is rarely useful against the AI anyway Ideally it should be possible for an experience to be fun and interesting in either mode; and super ideally the economy works even with multiple experienced players who know what they're doing and just creates a different kind of equilibrium which results in a new kind of challenge and distortions. e to add: I think the problem actually is V2 is sorta having its cake and eating it. Factories are treated as both specific individual complexes and as "whole industries" and this creates weird effects. I think if instead of building "a factory" you build "an industry" that "develops" and then has a certain variable/dynamic capacity, effectiveness and workforce similar to before, but don't "close" I think you eliminate this issue and subsidies should be less specific until later in the game, and more maybe macro, like factory inputs are +10% cheaper for a year like a Stellaris Edict. Basically if you don't need to worry about factories closing and disappearing being a huge oppurtunity cost, you can do more interesting things with how subsidies work so they're less of an obvious "I-Win Economics" button. And just let workers switch between different industries (with a malus as they have to relearn their trade?) Could be interesting if workers have a history, a "Furniture Factory" worker is cheaper to hire than a "Pots and Pans" worker who needs to be gradually retrained. With higher education this gets easier? Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jun 2, 2021 |
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Jun 2, 2021 03:45
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I do want economic crashes to be possible though especially because of how important the Long Depression and Great Depression are in US history during this era
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Jun 2, 2021 04:05
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Honestly my experience with Vicky 2 was a cycle of suddenly realizing I was massively in the red, having absolutely no idea why, then realizing it fixed itself without anything actually happening E: I'm 100% cool with crashes happening I'd just like to know why and to have things happen other than number go red
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Jun 2, 2021 04:06
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Historically a lot of these crises were accompanied by massive strike waves so if the game can model strikes then thats certainly something more than your budget going in the red
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Jun 2, 2021 04:10
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AnEdgelord posted:I do want economic crashes to be possible though especially because of how important the Long Depression and Great Depression are in US history during this era I think that crashes will probably still happen but because of the way the market system will work, they will no longer send the entire global economy into a death spiral.
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Jun 2, 2021 04:20
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I have always felt that the late game economic malfunctions and endless cycle of hellwars are thematically true to the time period even if not historically accurate. They certainly feel apocalyptic.
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Jun 2, 2021 04:32
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AnEdgelord posted:I do want economic crashes to be possible though especially because of how important the Long Depression and Great Depression are in US history during this era Exactly, it'd be neat to see that sort of desperation creep in as Black Tuesday happens and you're desperately throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks; but we all know there is only one answer.  *revs up the war machine while ACDC is on at full blast* Actually that's a good point. Like if there's a major military build up; obviously that will begin to raise prices (and profits) on all related industries. Armaments, chemicals, steel production; cement for new factories, etc. A boom (figurative and literally). A key thing that's missing is speculative bubbles; the act of investment on the basis of future profit later to capitalize on trends; and I think we'd see more boom/bust cycles if these happened more often. In the example above; should a peace treaty/non aggression pact be signed; you can have two things happen, first is the bubble pops. There's no longer a future war, which means the arms buildup, government contracts and so on will dry up. So all of those bonds, etc are worthless which puts a lot of pops out of a job, a lot of capitalists are now bankrupt; and a lot of loans are defaulted on which collapses your banking structures which causes other businesses to go out of business. Risk is now super high, market confidence is low, and investment halts. The second thing I think which would be interesting is if the POPs who have the most to lose get super reactionary, demanding you tear up the treaty and continue the build up and to go to war or else WHAT ABOUT THEIR PROFITS!? Or you do have the war but win or lose there's obviously going to be a draw down which also should result in a recession/depression depending on how big the bubble got. Players can sorta cause this by going "Oh hey cement is profitable right now lets build 100 cement factories" -> Cement price goes up, machine parts go up, etc etc and then at some point this halts when some resource, usually iron gets bottlenecked and then cement is no longer profitable. However what currently happens is players basically deficit spend their way out of this hole while digging a bigger hole that just cycles until the game ends in a sort of limbo of constantly forcefully growing to avoid sinking deeper into the ever expanding hole. It'd be more interesting if this was a bit (a) more localized and smaller scale until the economy is way more integrated later in the game, (b) more frequent and (c) less tools to intervene directly until later in the game and instead early in the game you kinda have to guide things more indirectly and just Let the Markets Decide.
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Jun 2, 2021 04:36
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Stairmaster posted:paradox give me vicky 3 now and i will say nice things about johan for free Not an empty quote.
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Jun 2, 2021 04:38
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Minenfeld! posted:Not an empty quote. I'm sad because I have like literally five years of Videogame QA game tester experience at one of the big Montreal game testing outsourcing places and I've never been tapped to test any of the games. 
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Jun 2, 2021 04:41
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm sad because I have like literally five years of Videogame QA game tester experience at one of the big Montreal game testing outsourcing places and I've never been tapped to test any of the games. We might have worked at the same place lol. I was working at Babel for (non-consecutive) five years.
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Jun 2, 2021 04:46
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MonsieurChoc posted:We might have worked at the same place lol. I was working at Babel for (non-consecutive) five years. Haha yeah I've worked there and at VMC.
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Jun 2, 2021 04:48
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paradox games get play tested?!
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Jun 2, 2021 05:02
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Vasukhani posted:paradox games get play tested?! Yes, extensively.
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Jun 2, 2021 05:04
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Raenir Salazar posted:Haha yeah I've worked there and at VMC. Nice. QA solidarity.
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Jun 2, 2021 05:10
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Raenir Salazar posted:Yes, extensively. lame >:|
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Jun 2, 2021 09:07
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Vasukhani posted:lame >:| You can pay to join the playtests any time you want!
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Jun 2, 2021 09:52
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A Buttery Pastry posted:And as someone says in the comments, make Americans addicted to guns. That's literally just the way Victoria games work. It's almost as if the century following World War Two was not that different in a grand sense from the century proceeding it.
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Jun 2, 2021 10:21
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anyone playing GFM around to tell me why my bureaucrats and intellectuals promotion numbers are through the roof? (like 1000% and 500% respectively). The tooltip does not show what the fuckery is.
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Jun 2, 2021 11:09
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Imperialism I actually ends up having a hellwar mechanic despite just being a victorian themed 4x game because once oil becomes completely developed, there's no longer any need to maintain population to run industry and thusly they can all be put into military units, which also frees up a bunch of transport for more iron and more guns so you can just fight ultra-wars, and also the game shifts from the skirmisher being the best unit to tank heavy artillery shots to the tank becoming the best unit for that
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Jun 2, 2021 11:16
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I definitly remember some warhammer 40k sized doom battles invading the UK has france in vick2. Like wiping out 2 million a 4 month battle.
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Jun 2, 2021 11:36
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karmicknight posted:That's literally just the way Victoria games work. It's almost as if the century following World War Two was not that different in a grand sense from the century proceeding it.
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Jun 2, 2021 11:44
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Pops getting addicted to certain goods dynamically is new though, and a pretty central missing feature for dealing with modern marketing/consumer culture. Isn't that at least partly the premise of the Opium Wars too?
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Jun 2, 2021 11:48
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Pops getting addicted to certain goods dynamically is new though, and a pretty central missing feature for dealing with modern marketing/consumer culture. This sounds cool as poo poo; imagine pops all getting addicted to guns.
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Jun 2, 2021 16:09
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Raenir Salazar posted:This sounds cool as poo poo; imagine pops all getting addicted to guns. That sure would be funny.
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Jun 2, 2021 16:56
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Raenir Salazar posted:This sounds cool as poo poo; imagine pops all getting addicted to guns. Time for a Texas playthrough
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Jun 2, 2021 17:09
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Clarste posted:Isn't that at least partly the premise of the Opium Wars too? Yes. The Brits literally could not stop buying tea and when China tried to cut them off they responded by flooding China with opium.
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Jun 2, 2021 17:11
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It wasn't that China cut them off, its that they were literally sending all their silver to the East for tea. The opium trade was about ending the trade imbalance, since the Brits controlled the source.
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Jun 2, 2021 17:40
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Modern day mod, Japan becomes the dominant Great Power by getting the rest of the world addicted to anime.
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Jun 2, 2021 17:43
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Super Jay Mann posted:Modern day mod, Japan becomes the dominant Great Power by getting the rest of the world addicted to anime. Honestly there could be more abstract goods, like "Cinema", "Books" (something for paper?) and "Artwork". With artisans being more and more inclined to produce creative works as time goes on.
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Jun 2, 2021 17:48
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It's also worth noting that it's not just tea and it's not just the British - China historically traded large quantities of tea, silk, spices, and porcelain out to the west in exchange for silver for long ages. Romans were complaining about how their hard-earned gold and silver were getting traded away for "useless luxuries." A large strain of Victorian thinking was that if only the Chinese could be persuaded to open up there'd actually be a huge market for Western wares to be sold that could reverse the balance of trade, only those mean ol' mandarins were unfairly restricting free trade and preventing everyone from prospering, instead hoarding all the silver for themselves!
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Jun 2, 2021 17:49
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My economy falls apart because all the factory workers are hooked on Garfield books and refuse to go to work
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Jun 2, 2021 17:49
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Super Jay Mann posted:Modern day mod, Japan becomes the dominant Great Power by getting the rest of the world addicted to anime. vast industrial complexes churning out discrete units of anime
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Jun 2, 2021 17:50
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DaysBefore posted:My economy falls apart because all the factory workers are hooked on Garfield books and refuse to go to work Striking for the elimination of Mondays
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Jun 2, 2021 17:54
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The dev diary did mention that services would be a component - I wonder if a mod that extended the game to the present day could take into account the transition from goods and manufacturing to services and intellectual property?
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Jun 2, 2021 17:56
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Tomn posted:It's also worth noting that it's not just tea and it's not just the British - China historically traded large quantities of tea, silk, spices, and porcelain out to the west in exchange for silver for long ages. Romans were complaining about how their hard-earned gold and silver were getting traded away for "useless luxuries." A large strain of Victorian thinking was that if only the Chinese could be persuaded to open up there'd actually be a huge market for Western wares to be sold that could reverse the balance of trade, only those mean ol' mandarins were unfairly restricting free trade and preventing everyone from prospering, instead hoarding all the silver for themselves! It might've worked if they actually did offer wares and goods that China was potentially interested in (like I dunno, steam locomotives?) and not trinkets China already had because China was still a fairly advanced society. The Chinese Emperor's letter to King George is fun to read and actually makes good points.
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Jun 2, 2021 17:59
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Jazerus posted:vast industrial complexes churning out discrete units of anime You haven't read about the Great Mangaka Strike of 1903 that ultimately precipitated the Russo-Japanese war?
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Jun 2, 2021 18:02
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Jazerus posted:vast industrial complexes churning out discrete units of anime abolishing all forms of taxation except a consumption taxes on anime and manga. citizens protesting by dumping containers of goku figurines into the sea
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Jun 2, 2021 18:08
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I think it'd be interesting if there was some level of granularity on demand for goods based on where they come from. Something like "We the Bourgeois want lots of coffee, but we especially like the coffee made in Brazil so we'll be happier if you import from there". I'm not sure how historically accurate that would be for the time period or how you would even model that type of targeted demand in game but it's an idea at least.
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Jun 2, 2021 18:13
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| # ? Apr 19, 2024 12:29 |
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I'm reminded of Tulip mania; people just buying all the tulips.Super Jay Mann posted:I think it'd be interesting if there was some level of granularity on demand for goods based on where they come from. Something like "We the Bourgeois want lots of coffee, but we especially like the coffee made in Brazil so we'll be happier if you import from there". I'm not sure how historically accurate that would be for the time period or how you would even model that type of targeted demand in game but it's an idea at least. I mean, I feel like this is probably true for types of coal/iron; and probably definitely for types of steel. I also feel things like "We really like apples/oranges from this specific province of Japan" was a thing even back then. Maybe also something like cotton; maybe some British pro-abolition pops will have an aversion to goods made by slaves; preferring Indian/Egyptian cotton?
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Jun 2, 2021 18:33
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