|
Raenir Salazar posted:It might've worked if they actually did offer wares and goods that China was potentially interested in (like I dunno, steam locomotives?) and not trinkets China already had because China was still a fairly advanced society. The Chinese Emperor's letter to King George is fun to read and actually makes good points. The Emperor of China posted:Yesterday your Ambassador petitioned my Ministers to memorialise me regarding your trade with China, but his proposal is not consistent with our dynastic usage and cannot be entertained. Hitherto, all European nations, including your own country's barbarian merchants, have carried on their trade with our Celestial Empire at Guangzhou. Such has been the procedure for many years, although our Celestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its own borders. There was therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce. But as the tea, silk and porcelain which the Celestial Empire produces, are absolute necessities to European nations and to yourselves, we have permitted, as a signal mark of favour, that foreign hongs [merchant firms] should be established at Guangzhou, so that your wants might be supplied and your country thus participate in our beneficence. Lol  http://users.rowan.edu/~mcinneshin/281/wk05/qingletters.htm EDIT: Also quote:As your Ambassador can see for himself, we possess all things. I set no value on objects strange or ingenious, and have no use for your country's manufactures [the McCartney mission brought wool socks as an offering]. Ahahaha this whole thing is hilarious! quote:Moreover, our dynasty, swaying the myriad races of the globe, extends the same benevolence towards all. Your England is not the only nation trading at Guangzhou. If other nations, following your bad example, wrongfully importune my ear with further impossible requests, how will it be possible for me to treat them with easy indulgence? Nevertheless, I do not forget the lonely remoteness of your island, cut off from the world by intervening wastes of sea, nor do I overlook your excusable ignorance of the usages of our Celestial Empire. DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jun 2, 2021 |
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 07:41 |
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Lol Yeah it all sort of boils down to the thing that the Europeans were angriest about was that China refused to acknowledge the inherent superiority of their cultural output. How could they not want what we have? The Victorian era was basically the time when white Europeans invented race science to justify colonialism after the fact, forgot that it was a thing they just made up, and started to legitimately believe it was how the world worked and the existence of China was poking some very big holes in their theories.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 18:44
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Lol BRB, Inventing phrenology because my mother's knit socks were insulted by an emperor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 18:58
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:It might've worked if they actually did offer wares and goods that China was potentially interested in (like I dunno, steam locomotives?) and not trinkets China already had because China was still a fairly advanced society. The Chinese Emperor's letter to King George is fun to read and actually makes good points. Didn't they? I was reading about railroads in China and there were at least a couple of times when somebody showed up and built a demonstration train and the government tore it down and told them to take a hike. They didn't actually allow any railroads until the decades later and those were all built by foreigners.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 19:21
|
|
|
They said it was interrupting the feng shui, and they were right.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 19:32
|
|
|
Yeah it should be noted that, while the euros were 100% the bad guys and ultimately responsible for everything bad that happened, the Qing empire was also just very badly run. Thats part of the reason poo poo like the Taipei rebellion and other uprisings kept happening in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
Vasukhani posted:I definitly remember some warhammer 40k sized doom battles invading the UK has france in vick2. Like wiping out 2 million a 4 month battle. In Vicky 1, you could manually promote entire populations into soldiers, then make units from those soldier populations. You could use those specific units on suicide missions until you destroyed the entire population of a state or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 22:18
|
|
|
Speaking of China, my one (...well... One of many) confusion with Vic2 is I have no idea how I'm supposed to interact with China like a proper imperialist. Conquering chunks of them is right out, as then you'd have a bunch of wrong culture, illiterate peasants mucking up your research. You cant sphere them, because then your economy explodes. So... What does one do?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 22:43
|
|
|
Capfalcon posted:Speaking of China, my one (...well... One of many) confusion with Vic2 is I have no idea how I'm supposed to interact with China like a proper imperialist. Conquering chunks of them is right out, as then you'd have a bunch of wrong culture, illiterate peasants mucking up your research. You cant sphere them, because then your economy explodes. So... What does one do? You conquer them and send endless waves of Chinese Peasents at your enemies instead of your own soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 22:46
|
|
|
It's actually a pro strat to conquer the Pearl River Delta, based on what I regularly see people on Youtube do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 22:47
|
|
|
Capfalcon posted:Speaking of China, my one (...well... One of many) confusion with Vic2 is I have no idea how I'm supposed to interact with China like a proper imperialist. Conquering chunks of them is right out, as then you'd have a bunch of wrong culture, illiterate peasants mucking up your research. You cant sphere them, because then your economy explodes. So... What does one do? Every once in a while you sail some armies over to kick the poo poo out of them and force them to cede some treaty ports
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 22:50
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:It's actually a pro strat to conquer the Pearl River Delta, based on what I regularly see people on Youtube do. Oh I wasn't kidding, I wouldn't try taking the whole of China, but grabbing a state or two is fantastic, shitloads of Raw materiel and Raw recruits. The penalties don't outweigh being able to militarily punch way above your weight. My go to with Spain, was Deal with the Carlists, Take Sokoto, Take South Korea, and then see if I can take a piece out of China, Then you can actually get enough power to not constantly be struggling for GP against loving Belgium, and take part in the big boy wars
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 22:54
|
|
|
DaysBefore posted:Every once in a while you sail some armies over to kick the poo poo out of them and force them to cede some treaty ports That's only an HPM thing, vanilla doesn't have treaty ports
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:13
|
|
|
Yeah the thing about Victoria 2 is ultimately that more pops = better. Big colonial armies and a huge tax base will make you a lot more powerful than slightly faster tech development.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:20
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:That's only an HPM thing, vanilla doesn't have treaty ports Ah yeah alright, then just conquer coastal chunks and forcibly conscript the population for endless European land wars
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:26
|
|
|
I hope V3 requires things like the british indian army to actually spend the majority of their manpower garrisoning India instead of colonies being endless manpower pools.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:38
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:I hope V3 requires things like the british indian army to actually spend the majority of their manpower garrisoning India instead of colonies being endless manpower pools. No! then I'll have to git gud
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:41
|
|
|
How does, "Agrarian Society, -69% manpower" sound
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:45
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:I hope V3 requires things like the british indian army to actually spend the majority of their manpower garrisoning India instead of colonies being endless manpower pools. I don't know much about the raj (even though I should). Why did they need to garrison it so heavily? In case of rebellion?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:03
|
|
|
Paradox should buy the studio that made Rule the Waves 2 and just add it to Vic 3
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:16
|
|
|
Tiger attacksBig Dick Cheney posted:Paradox should buy the studio that made
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:16
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:I don't know much about the raj (even though I should). Why did they need to garrison it so heavily? In case of rebellion? Among other things, fear of another colonial power (say, Russia) trying to take it over.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:20
|
|
|
Tomn posted:Among other things, fear of another colonial power (say, Russia) trying to take it over. Also, the British were absolutely rapacious and had ridiculously grandiose dreams like linking India up to the Med via continuous, British-controlled rail lines.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 01:48
|
|
|
Big Dick Cheney posted:Paradox should buy the studio that made Rule the Waves 2 and just add it to Vic 3 Oh man that'd be a match made in heaven. Proper 19th century ship design and production shenanigans, actual civil-military relations, more spreadsheets... heck, I'd honestly prefer RtW's vaguely HOI4-like per-theatre deployment system to the usual Clausewitz navy mechanics. Dayton Sports Bar fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jun 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 02:43
|
|
|
I also imagine arming millions of people in india might give them ideas of not fighting for Britain.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 02:54
|
|
|
A designer will inherently suck unless it's somehow randomized so the player doesn't automatically know dreadnoughts work and HMS Captain doesn't
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 02:54
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:A designer will inherently suck unless it's somehow randomized so the player doesn't automatically know dreadnoughts work and HMS Captain doesn't Make sure you have enough local big gun production as Japan so you can build a uniform caliber Satsuma.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 03:01
|
|
|
Oh God please do not add any designer of anything to Vicky 3.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 03:22
|
|
|
there is a little bit more to the "indian regiments stay in india" thing than just the need for garrison work. the people most on-board with serving in the aristocratic british military were high-caste folks that literally could not travel across the ocean for religious reasons, and would have rebelled if ordered overseas. did, in fact - the Mutiny was partially driven by fear that the british were going to expand overseas service. in many ways the sepoys were a direct mirror of the regular british army - aristocratic leadership with lots of landed gentry. their presence was considered important for retaining control as the east india company generally tried to operate as an extra administrative layer above the pre-existing social structures, except in the cases where british sensibilities (and prejudices) were simply too ruffled not to interfere. which was a lot of cases to be fair the EIC and the raj are a fascinatingly awful lens into the nuts and bolts of empire that in many other cases were simply not documented nearly as thoroughly Minenfeld! posted:Oh God please do not add any designer of anything to Vicky 3. trade good designer. let me catapult to the top as bavaria selling Opera to the world Jazerus fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jun 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 03:23
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:let me catapult to the top as bavaria selling Opera to the world
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 03:43
|
|
|
the game should have a sims style building editor, so that you can design your own palaces, government buildings, monuments, opera houses, etc. and when the worlds fair happens you get to design your pavilion for that e: what are some cool books on imperialism i should read to get ready for vicky 3. besides the one by lenin Yaoi Gagarin fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jun 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 04:32
|
|
|
Minenfeld! posted:Oh God please do not add any designer of anything to Vicky 3. I hate the ship designer thing too. The whole point is you choose the techs, and then ofc your naval college will figure out the rest. It doesnt need to be extrapolated on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 04:43
|
|
|
Gort posted:How does, "Agrarian Society, -69% manpower" sound About as good as Porto-Brazilian India. karmicknight fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jun 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 04:47
|
|
|
I would prefer if we didn't even have manual control of our navies. Just let me assign ships to fleets and fleets to missions like blockade or trade protection or whatever. I hate controlling navies.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 05:09
|
|
|
It should be impossible to manually order your military province-to-province, land or sea. You give them orders and you appoint officers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 05:12
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:A designer will inherently suck unless it's somehow randomized so the player doesn't automatically know dreadnoughts work and HMS Captain doesn't This would own, actually. Randomly mess with the stats every game so a different piece of military technology is OP each campaign. Players sinking an ungodly amount of money into Landship R&D in the hopes that this time it will pay off.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 05:24
|
|
|
for the love of god stop with the loving designers the AI will never know how to use and players just memorize the meta template for
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 05:25
|
|
|
Top hat designer. The fancier it is, the more resources it costs to produce but the happier your Capitalists.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 05:26
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:Top hat designer. The fancier it is, the more resources it costs to produce but the happier your Capitalists. nevermind this will do it
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 05:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 07:41 |
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Lol Ha ha yes, it worked out really well to send those idiots off with a flea in their ear  The Emperor and his officials quite correctly read the power dynamic as of 1795 but even if you don’t blame them for not predicting the way the next 40 years would change that, they should possibly have put more weight on the implications of Macartney’s team, who were not morons, challenging the idea that the Emperor was on a level of his own above their King. I think this thread is the first time I’ve seen the response presented as a diplomatic masterstroke. Then again, China had had lovely ships compared to Europeans for 300 years at that point and it had never been a problem so it’s understandable that he didn’t immediately see the implications of the Macartney ships (and when they eventually did build a proper fleet, the Japanese promptly sank it).
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 05:45
|
|
