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Glad AoT was brave enough to finally tackle the genocide question. Turns out? It's bad.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 22:45 |
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 07:54 |
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Eej posted:His editor I knew it! Insane theories, one; regular theories, a billion.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 22:46 |
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But the editor was reassuring Isayama. In the extra chapters Yams flat out says he couldnt make his ending work because he just couldnt get what he wanted to say onto the page.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 22:53 |
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I mean, if he was having doubts about it and then his editor rolled up and said no way bro it's good just ink it
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 22:58 |
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Yeah if anything it makes the editorial staff sound like yes-men who tried to justify the author's bad idea when he had doubts about it.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 23:00 |
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If people encounter racism in real life, they will think, "racism is bad". But maybe, if we produce our movies in a racist way with 95% white cast and only one token black guy who isn't a gang member and who ends up dying to save the other white people, people will be like "this movie is racist. But racism is bad." And that's good actually because it starts a movement! So actually, we aren't racist, we are PRO-anti-racismts.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 23:28 |
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Jimbot posted:Just gonna leave this here: This may be the single dumbest thing I've read in a long time. Jesus christ Isayama, this guy was your editor???
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 23:31 |
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Eej posted:His editor motherfucker
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 23:51 |
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Does anyone know what the original source of this quote was? All the links in that Twitter thread are dead. I mean the ending is dumb as rocks, but I want to know if this quote is even real.
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# ? Jun 7, 2021 23:52 |
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Apparently it was posted on live door and then deleted.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 00:44 |
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Here's the Isayama interview, or at least the one I've found: https://yaboylevi.tumblr.com/post/651352568518361088/shingeki-no-kyojins-ending-interview-may-2021 The most relevant bit is that he says he regrets not conveying Armin's disapproval of Eren's actions more firmly and that the original final page had 3 people finding the tree instead of just 1. Nothing seems to be confirming the theories here?
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 02:00 |
Dude just didn't know how to finish it. It's okay, a lot of writers struggle with that.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 03:02 |
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So what I'm taking away from these is that Isayama knew he had written a mess that was sending a hosed up unintended message, but his editor is a crazy person that told him to become a target for the world's genocide-haters to unite against like the end of Watchmen
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 03:29 |
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Thus loving manga just keeps delivering incredible content
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:04 |
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I would have preferred him to take a long hiatus before the endgame to really plan out how to get his theme across. Maybe that was against his contract though and he just had to charge ahead in serialized fashion. I don’t know how much leeway they give authors. Guys like Miura got to keep their own schedule but that was only after over a decade of consistent publication and this is Isayama’s first rodeo.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:06 |
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Gruckles posted:So what I'm taking away from these is that Isayama knew he had written a mess that was sending a hosed up unintended message, but his editor is a crazy person that told him to become a target for the world's genocide-haters to unite against like the end of Watchmen it was all to push us away from him and make us into readers who understood genocide was bad by hating his ending
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:09 |
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Looking at that interview he says armin wasn't approving of erens actions but somehow failed to simply not have him say thank you and then also had like half the cast talk about how he was such a good guy.? Am I missing something here? That seems like an easy thing to fix.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:13 |
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Beginning to think all the good writing before the ending really was an extended string of happy accidents and coincidences. A stopped clock somehow being right multiple times per day, possibly because the hands are loose and someone keeps jiggling it around. Attack on Titan was a mistake.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:15 |
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The Isayama interview makes me a bit sad because he sounds like a nice guy who worked hard but just didn’t have the skill to make his work thematically consistent or avoid horrible implications. And if he quits manga now to go open a hot spring or retire on his profits or whatever, this malformed work will be his legacy. It’s a pity.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:23 |
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Viridiant posted:Beginning to think all the good writing before the ending really was an extended string of happy accidents and coincidences. A stopped clock somehow being right multiple times per day, possibly because the hands are loose and someone keeps jiggling it around. Look. You break it down, someone either pitches multiple perfect games by accident, or there was a personal grudge when he beaned the umpire hard enough to give the guy a concussion. I'm still leaning toward option 2 here. There being some weird explanation for the last chapter sucking so much is simpler than there being an elaborate explanation for why so many earlier chapters were so good.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:26 |
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Isayama Hajime was absolutely over his head, but we're still talking about seven to ten years of "happy accidents" depending on when you think the manga went bad.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:41 |
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It's not really that implausible for Isayama to be a consistently good writer pulling cool threads together when things are still going and left open ended, but then still totally whiff it when trying to tie up the whole thing in one neat bow for a satisfying ending. It's a bit of a different scenario, especially when theres so much pressure of making THE DEFINITIVE ENDING OF ATTACK ON TITAN after a freakin decade.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 04:46 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6scMwNI-SAI&t=135s
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 05:00 |
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Yeah even if I thought isayama was some kind of lucky hack it kinda sucks that he managed to ride this story all the way to the end and then it all blow up.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 05:49 |
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Are we still taking the fake interview at face value?
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 06:11 |
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Conspiratiorist posted:Are we still taking the fake interview at face value? Wait what Interview is fake?
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 06:20 |
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There's another language source for the interview: https://twitter.com/A0TLEVl/status/1401845531572244482?s=19 https://twitter.com/A0TLEVl/status/1401850098024259584?s=19
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 07:00 |
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You know how some people saw Starship Troopers and didn't "get it"? This is like that except somehow Paul Verhoeven didn't get it either.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 07:03 |
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I can't parse whatever the gently caress those tweets are trying to say Wait I think I've got it now TowerofOil fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Jun 8, 2021 |
# ? Jun 8, 2021 07:09 |
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Schwarzwald posted:Isayama Hajime was absolutely over his head, but we're still talking about seven to ten years of "happy accidents" depending on when you think the manga went bad. Just because there are several points where the parodically grimdark zombie mech story jumped off a cliff -- that doesn't mean it was all that brilliantly conceived to begin with. Some parts were certainly functional at first (but even the basic hook of the ontological mystery of the titans is eventually soured by the centipede being whatever and Ymir's story having an absolutely insane resolution. Even ignoring the whole ethnic bioweapon thing).
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 07:22 |
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Eej posted:There's another language source for the interview: That did not answer my question. I meant which interview was fake. The one by Isayama or the one by his editor.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 07:31 |
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chiasaur11 posted:Look. You break it down, someone either pitches multiple perfect games by accident, or there was a personal grudge when he beaned the umpire hard enough to give the guy a concussion. I disagree. Coming up with a satisfying ending that ties up all the dangling plot threads and gives a sense of closure to the reader is one of the hardest parts of writing a story. Each time when you introduce a new character, mystery, or a narrative, you take a loan, with the reader accepting that you can make it work as a face value. The ending is where you pay it off. There's been many writers who created enjoyable stories and had many good ideas, but couldn't come up with a good ending and their entire masterpiece suffered for it.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 09:55 |
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chiasaur11 posted:Look. You break it down, someone either pitches multiple perfect games by accident, or there was a personal grudge when he beaned the umpire hard enough to give the guy a concussion. I don't know if it was pitching perfect games for most of its run. It was managing to pull out some cool twists and seemed to just be keeping ahead of its weird implications with the Eldians by suggesting they never had a repressive empire and the Marleyans were lying (but then we find out they really weren't lying because in Ymir's flashbacks the Eldians do have an empire...) and then it wrote itself into a corner where the Rumbling was necessary as a big final act and somehow the guy perpetrating this genocide isn't portrayed as a total bad guy but rather a dumb kid that was in over his head and confused by magic fate visions imbued by a centipede alien... I'll admit I was still enjoying it until the final chapter, but so much of this manga was basically creating "story debt" that had to be paid off. The bigger and more enticing the mystery, the better the manga seems, but it has to get paid off. And like in a lot of spending sprees, the manga defaulted. Lots of well regarded epic fantasy series have this same problem. Kingkiller is a famous example of a series that has so much storytelling debt the final book literally cannot be written because there's no way to pay it off.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 15:30 |
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Ccs posted:I'll admit I was still enjoying it until the final chapter, but so much of this manga was basically creating "story debt" that had to be paid off. The bigger and more enticing the mystery, the better the manga seems, but it has to get paid off. And like in a lot of spending sprees, the manga defaulted.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 15:50 |
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LordMune posted:Just because there are several points where the parodically grimdark zombie mech story jumped off a cliff -- that doesn't mean it was all that brilliantly conceived to begin with. Some parts were certainly functional at first (but even the basic hook of the ontological mystery of the titans is eventually soured by the centipede being whatever and Ymir's story having an absolutely insane resolution. Even ignoring the whole ethnic bioweapon thing). I'm saying it was a (mostly) well told story which was told consistently for more than half a decade. Being "brilliantly conceived" has nothing to do with it.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 16:10 |
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If nothing else Isayama delivered on the basement and the story could’ve ended there and have been fine.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 16:11 |
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Ccs posted:I'll admit I was still enjoying it until the final chapter, but so much of this manga was basically creating "story debt" that had to be paid off. The bigger and more enticing the mystery, the better the manga seems, but it has to get paid off. And like in a lot of spending sprees, the manga defaulted Yeah, but remember the basement? It was a huge debt, accumulated for a long time. So much I was pretty sure it wanst going to pay off. But it did, that reveal was indeed, great What I am saying is that we had reason to believe he could deliver an ending too edit: beaten about the basement
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 16:27 |
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MonsterEnvy posted:That did not answer my question. I meant which interview was fake. The one by Isayama or the one by his editor. I dunno what the other poster was talking about; all indications I’ve seen were that the interviews were real but the various accounts have some translation differences
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 16:29 |
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TheKingofSprings posted:If nothing else Isayama delivered on the basement and the story could’ve ended there and have been fine.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 20:40 |
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 07:54 |
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Even before the ending, AoT had its low points... like the repeated absolute bullshit of the Cart Titan when it first appeared. But I'd say Isayama is a pretty great storyteller overall. Especially when it comes to establishing interesting characters, seeing as he got me to end up liking even the goddamn Cart Titan.
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# ? Jun 8, 2021 21:13 |