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AccountSupervisor
Aug 3, 2004

I am greatful for my loop pedal
The funniest part about WB veering from the original plot arc of the DCEU was how the MCU will always beat them to the punch on everything when it comes to big universe arcs(Thanos/Darkseid, timetravel, multiverse, etc) and that was exactly what the original plan was attempting to avoid.

By the time Loki is over and Dr. Strange 2 is out there will be nothing novel about a comic multiverse in film so DC will just be retreading ground, again, with The Flash.

Its kind of amazing how the parallels between the start of the actual comics rivalry has sort of been revived for their film universes.

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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

AccountSupervisor posted:

Its kind of amazing how the parallels between the start of the actual comics rivalry has sort of been revived for their film universes.

Tbf I think SCJL is better than the Super-Sons

AccountSupervisor
Aug 3, 2004

I am greatful for my loop pedal

Neurolimal posted:

Tbf I think SCJL is better than the Super-Sons

The thought of the Snyderverse being a computer simulation inside the actual DCEU would have been such a ballsy way to reset the canon yet retain the actors and I wish WB were so bold.

Neo Rasa
Mar 8, 2007
Everyone should play DUKE games.

:dukedog:

AccountSupervisor posted:

The funniest part about WB veering from the original plot arc of the DCEU was how the MCU will always beat them to the punch on everything when it comes to big universe arcs(Thanos/Darkseid, timetravel, multiverse, etc) and that was exactly what the original plan was attempting to avoid.

By the time Loki is over and Dr. Strange 2 is out there will be nothing novel about a comic multiverse in film so DC will just be retreading ground, again, with The Flash.

Its kind of amazing how the parallels between the start of the actual comics rivalry has sort of been revived for their film universes.

It's especially funny because Justice League dropped a solid year before Infinity War and two years before Endgame, like imagine if they just went with Snyder's version and didn't re-shoot anything they would have genuinely had the arcs and beaten Marvel to the punch at the same time.

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

Neo Rasa posted:

It's especially funny because Justice League dropped a solid year before Infinity War and two years before Endgame, like imagine if they just went with Snyder's version and didn't re-shoot anything they would have genuinely had the arcs and beaten Marvel to the punch at the same time.

Well, even if they had beaten Marvel to the punch, Marvel would still have punched harder because Marvel actually put in the work.

Justice League had to cram three extra origin stories into itself, while the MCU did all those as separate movies and carefully built its universe over a decade or so of films.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

Everyone posted:

Well, even if they had beaten Marvel to the punch, Marvel would still have punched harder because Marvel actually put in the work.

Justice League had to cram three extra origin stories into itself, while the MCU did all those as separate movies and carefully built its universe over a decade or so of films.

I think the issue is it turns out those origin stories didn't really matter.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Before the MCU, a movie could just have three characters in it

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Remember when Star Wars had to cram in origin stories for C3PO, R2D2, Princess Leia, Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Han Solo and Chewbacca, because they hadn't done the work and as a result the movie didn't punch hard?

The MSJ
May 17, 2010

Solo was made so that the OT Star Wars make sense to millennials.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Everyone posted:

Well, even if they had beaten Marvel to the punch, Marvel would still have punched harder because Marvel actually put in the work.

Justice League had to cram three extra origin stories into itself, while the MCU did all those as separate movies and carefully built its universe over a decade or so of films.

I kinda forgot who Ant man was during Endgame, it would have been nice to have some flashbacks to his solo movies to make sense of his otherwise incomprehensible character.

Mandrel
Sep 24, 2006

my favorite part of ghost rider was when about 7 minutes in we get flashbacks to multiple scenes we just saw at about 5 minutes in. just in case you missed them and got confused about why he’s mad about selling his soul to the devil, the only thing to have happened in the movie so far

suicide squad brain levels of editing

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN
(watching spiderman 2) where is spiderman 2?

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

(watching spiderman 2) where is spiderman 2?

Confusion increases further when spiderman 3 only has two spidermen.


EDIT: Further proof that Ant-man and the Wasp is the superior sequel naming convention.

MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jun 12, 2021

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

Grendels Dad posted:

I kinda forgot who Ant man was during Endgame, it would have been nice to have some flashbacks to his solo movies to make sense of his otherwise incomprehensible character.

Tough poo poo. You should have put in the work of watching 30 Marvel movies beforehand.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Everyone posted:

Tough poo poo. You should have put in the work of watching 30 Marvel movies beforehand.

Ah, like the one where Hulk and Bruce Banner merge into Professor Hulk. That was great, I enjoyed Tim Roth's return.

Zzulu
May 15, 2009

(▰˘v˘▰)
Ant Man was a scientsitman who could grow small or big

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

Zzulu posted:

Ant Man was a scientsitman who could grow small or big

No he's a man who is friends with a scientistman, who is also called Ant Man.

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Zzulu posted:

Ant Man was a scientsitman who could grow small or big

Big deal I can do that too

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

RBA Starblade posted:

Big deal I can do that too

Source your quotes.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

Everyone posted:

Justice League had to cram three extra origin stories into itself, while the MCU did all those as separate movies and carefully built its universe over a decade or so of films.
It would have been a fun comparison. MCU built a whole franchise and allowed c-listers to shine. But a lot of that is built on undoing the work characters do in their solos.

From watch ZSJL, and reading the drafts of JL2 and 3, the story would have serviced the characters very well and would have given them a fair bit of characterization and growth that would have felt realized and earned.

Pillowpants
Aug 5, 2006

FilthyImp posted:

It would have been a fun comparison. MCU built a whole franchise and allowed c-listers to shine. But a lot of that is built on undoing the work characters do in their solos.

From watch ZSJL, and reading the drafts of JL2 and 3, the story would have serviced the characters very well and would have given them a fair bit of characterization and growth that would have felt realized and earned.

Yeah, but now to actually get into the MCU and start, you need to be willing to watch something like 2 or 300 hundred hours of movies and TV shows.

24 movies in 3 phases, plus the Bana Hulk, 5 Tobey and Garfield Spidermans, 13 X-Men movies, 2 Fantastic Four movies, Agents of Shield, 4 netflix shows, 3 disney plus shows. I can't believe we've spent so much time watching this poo poo.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

sucks to be right

Everyone posted:

Justice League had to cram three extra origin stories into itself, while the MCU did all those as separate movies and carefully built its universe over a decade or so of films.

This is a story that online nerds created to explain why Justice League was less than half as successful at the box office than the first Avengers film. The MCU had the advantage of fleshing out the characters over a whole bunch of films! The DCEU rushed ahead too fast and paid the price! Meanwhile Guardians of the Galaxy came out and was based around 5 minor comicbook characters that had never appeared in any previous films and had barely any pop culture presence (especially compared to Aqua Man and Flash) yet it still made more money than Justice League. Introducing new characters isn't a disadvantage for a film, if anything it should have been a major drawcard.

Also there were 5 MCU films spread out over four years before Avengers and there were 4 DCEU films spread out over four years before Justice League, the difference in the lead in between the two was pretty minimal. Incredible Hulk and the first Captain America film also weren't anywhere near as popular as the early DCEU films, they sold roughly half as many tickets as much as Man Of Steel.

But somehow it's become accepted wisdom that the Avengers film had massive advantages that helped it become so insanely popular that Justice League didn't.


Pillowpants posted:

Yeah, but now to actually get into the MCU and start, you need to be willing to watch something like 2 or 300 hundred hours of movies and TV shows.

The MCU has been around for 13 years now, a huge percentage of cinema goers have been watching those films since they were a kid.It's just part of the cinema landscape now, like Star Wars.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Snowglobe of Doom posted:

This is a story that online nerds created to explain why Justice League was less than half as successful at the box office than the first Avengers film. The MCU had the advantage of fleshing out the characters over a whole bunch of films! The DCEU rushed ahead too fast and paid the price! Meanwhile Guardians of the Galaxy came out and was based around 5 minor comicbook characters that had never appeared in any previous films and had barely any pop culture presence (especially compared to Aqua Man and Flash) yet it still made more money than Justice League. Introducing new characters isn't a disadvantage for a film, if anything it should have been a major drawcard.

Yes, the real problem with the theatrical cut of Justice League is that there wasn't enough of it.

People endlessly talk about the majestic tapestry of the MCU, but rarely elaborate on what it even is. Like, how does the narrative of the Infinity War & Endgame benefit from mainlining hundreds of hours of content beforehand?

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

The middle act of Endgame is callback city. But most MCU films work on their own and that is probably part of their strength.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

KVeezy3 posted:

Yes, the real problem with the theatrical cut of Justice League is that there wasn't enough of it.

People endlessly talk about the majestic tapestry of the MCU, but rarely elaborate on what it even is. Like, how does the narrative of the Infinity War & Endgame benefit from mainlining hundreds of hours of content beforehand?

If you've seen the first Avengers movie, you see half of Thanos' face and you get to know his henchman that dies on his next appearance/fifteen movies before Infinity War and isn't relevant for anything!

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009

Snowglobe of Doom posted:

This is a story that online nerds created to explain why Justice League was less than half as successful at the box office than the first Avengers film. The MCU had the advantage of fleshing out the characters over a whole bunch of films! The DCEU rushed ahead too fast and paid the price! Meanwhile Guardians of the Galaxy came out and was based around 5 minor comicbook characters that had never appeared in any previous films and had barely any pop culture presence (especially compared to Aqua Man and Flash) yet it still made more money than Justice League. Introducing new characters isn't a disadvantage for a film, if anything it should have been a major drawcard.

Which just means that nobody actually cares about introducing the character, they just want to know how they got their powers and costume. Guardians of the Galaxy explained it with "they're from space", so it got a pass. Similarly, nobody complains about X-Men because their powers all come from the same place too. Even in The Avengers, nobody cared that Black Widow and Hawkeye got dropped into the series without any fanfare, because they don't have any specific visual effects that need to be explained.

If people cared about things like being familiar with a character's internal life, or bringing the context of their experiences into a new situation, then the MCU would have run out of steam long ago because the characters just default to template after every movie.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

Robot Style posted:

Even in The Avengers, nobody cared that Black Widow and Hawkeye got dropped into the series without any fanfare
Lol you simpleton, you absolute knob.

Black Widow was introduced in Iron Man 2 and Hawkeye had a bit part in Thor!

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Irony Be My Shield posted:

The middle act of Endgame is callback city. But most MCU films work on their own and that is probably part of their strength.

Right, so that aspect is decidedly detrimental to the narrative by shoehorning in a storytelling device usually relegated to a sitcom series bereft of ideas.

Of course, any film should be able to stand on its own, and sequels, prequels, spin-offs etc have always been driven partly by marketing, but I don't think it's good that people are now celebrating that the MCU was able to shed all pretense and place that concern first and foremost.

Alexander Hamilton
Dec 29, 2008
I mean I feel like I understood Cyborg’s character after his 5-minute vignette in ZSJL than I do Thor’s character after 7 movies

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Imo theres value in the Marvel way insofar as it can cut a lot of exposition, and provides it a la carte; dont need a movie showing who Doctor Strange is? Then you dont need to watch Doctor Strange for this other movie Doctor Strange is in.

Where things get annoying is the insistence that characters have to be treated this way, because it's what Marvel did (which gets weird when you consider how often other franchises are mocked for imitating Marvel). A lot of the time you dont need a two hour+ movie for The Guy that Grows Big or Water King to get their schtick! Sometimes their introductory sequence can be thematically appropriate for this other story! It's not like movies with large ensembles were invented by Marvel.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

sucks to be right

Robot Style posted:

If people cared about things like being familiar with a character's internal life, or bringing the context of their experiences into a new situation, then the MCU would have run out of steam long ago because the characters just default to template after every movie.

If they grew and developed as people and actually dealt with their traumas instead of covering over them with humour then there'd be less quips. :ssh:


FilthyImp posted:

Lol you simpleton, you absolute knob.

Black Widow was introduced in Iron Man 2 and Hawkeye had a bit part in Thor!

Yeah pretty much every character in Avengers had previously appeared and - much more importantly - had their individual quip styles defined. Loki was mean-quippy, Thor was bro-quippy, Fury was sarcastic-quippy, Coulson was dry-quippy, Hawkeye was I'm-too-old-for-this-poo poo quippy, etc etc.. Hulk/Banner hadn't been quippy enough in his standalone film so he had to get a do-over as dorky-quippy.

I mean, look at the very first trailer for the movie - the big character interaction moment at 1:10 is Captain America and Iron Man trading snarky comments and Thor sniggering off to the side. That was the real showdown that the audience was tuning in to see: quips quips quips!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOrNdBpGMv8

The second trailer had almost no quips but leaned really hard on the idea that the movie is mostly about the Avengers fighting among themselves and struggling to work past their differences and come together as a team
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIR8Ar-Z4hw


KVeezy3 posted:

I don't think it's good that people are now celebrating that the MCU was able to shed all pretense and place that concern first and foremost.

I'm not celebrating it, I think it was a coldly calculated business move to pander to audiences.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

sucks to be right
I'm pretty sure that the Marvel/Disney executives sat down at some point and wrote up a big list of the essential ingredients for a smash hit superhero/comic movies based on the previous biggest hits (Superman 78, Batman 89, TMNT 90, Spider-Man 02, etc) and right at the top of the list was "The hero acts like a smug rear end in a top hat during dramatic moments"

People forget that Reeve's Superman was a total dick. :v:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ykt4GD7jtQ

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009

Reeve's Superman killed his own father by challenging him to a footrace that triggered a heart attack, because he was upset about not being able to show off his powers at school.

Edward Mass
Sep 14, 2011

𝅘𝅥𝅮 I wanna go home with the armadillo
Good country music from Amarillo and Abilene
Friendliest people and the prettiest women you've ever seen
𝅘𝅥𝅮

Robot Style posted:

Reeve's Superman killed his own father by challenging him to a footrace that triggered a heart attack, because he was upset about not being able to show off his powers at school.

Superman's father died on Krypton. Superman's DAD, however....

Ror
Oct 21, 2010

😸Everything's 🗞️ purrfect!💯🤟


Superman being a dick is always fun and Reeve knew how to hit the tone perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBryGe1USG0

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

YOU CAN TRUST ME!*


*Israeli Government-affiliated poster

Edward Mass posted:

Superman's father died on Krypton. Superman's DAD, however....

"Jor-El may have been your father, boy. But, he wadn't your daddy."

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

sucks to be right
The best part is all that superdickery is extremely faithful to the comics

https://superdickery.com/tag/superman-is-a-dick/

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Snowglobe of Doom posted:

I'm not celebrating it, I think it was a coldly calculated business move to pander to audiences.

Sorry for being unclear, as I didn't mean to indicate you specifically in that remark.

But I do think that your earlier counter-narrative, where the proof against Justice League's excuse is that GOTG was financially successful without having established characters beforehand and not being 2.5+ hours long, is overly reductive, because it leaves out the entirely different kind of stories they're respectively telling. Consequently, it places the possibility of superhero stories into a small box.

Snyder has made multiple ensemble films that are self-contained, but he was doing something different with his Superman trilogy, where the protagonists have the narrative space & capacity to take on a mythical stature. Take for example, Batman v Superman, which only has two super-heros to 'introduce' but results in a narrative with a fairly complex & interweaving structure, even with Wonder Woman remaining the character with a Dark and Mysterious Past until the end.

Intrinsically linked to this is that Snyder was allowed to make these kind of films, and then had his legs repeatedly cut off near the finish line.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Jun 14, 2021

Everyone
Sep 6, 2019

by sebmojo

KVeezy3 posted:

Sorry for being unclear, as I didn't mean to indicate you specifically in that remark.

But I do think that your earlier counter-narrative, where the proof against Justice League's excuse is that GOTG was financially successful without having established characters beforehand and not being 2.5+ hours long is overly reductive, because it leaves out the entirely different kind of stories they're respectively telling. Consequently, it places the possibility of superhero stories into a small box.

One point about GotG is that by the time it was released, there had already been nine previous MCU movies, all of which were at least relatively well received by audiences. So the MCU was a successful brand at this point. Audiences had come to trust that whatever else Guardians of the Galaxy would be a fun action movie with a good bit of comedy because that's what all the previous MCU movies had been. Also, the MCU was the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Which meant that Guardians of the Galaxy would be an exploration/revelation of a new part of that universe and the new characters in that part of the universe.

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Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS
Also most viewers seem to go by trailers and word of mouth much more so than whether the fictional characters or universes are familiar to them

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