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I do kinda feel like Elrond wasn't really giving his all in trying to get Isildur to destroy the Ring the first time around, although then he also had the excuse that Sauron seemed pretty dead at the time. Even when they were all for destroying the Ring the second time it popped up, it seemed a little underwhelming when the most they could do is fill up Frodo's bags and give him a couple volunteers to send him on his way. That might've been all they could do, since if there were too many people along with them they'd draw too much attention, and they couldn't hand the ring over to some super-skilled elf to do the hard work because they'd be too vulnerable to corruption, but it's still not a lot. Shadow of Mordor may do some weird things with the canon, but it was interesting to see that DLC where somebody does take the one Ring and uses its power for something more than turning invisible only for it to turn on him.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:40
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Jazerus posted:what the hell is up with this "necromancer" guy my thing is, they’re all dumbasses. who or what else could it have possibly been? it’s either the Witch King, who we should probably deal with, or it’s Sauron, meaning he’s back, also something we should deal with. there’s nothing in all LotR and extended sources that hints any old dickhead could become magically powerful unless they’re an Ainu or empowered by one, so they knew it had to be Sauron (or one of his empowered lieutenants)
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Jun 13, 2021 20:59
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It’s not trivial problem to convince someone to destroy the ring. In fact nobody is ever able to do it, whatever their intentions. That’s why the ring ended up having to be destroyed semi-intentionally by Frodo and Gollum disgracing themselves. Gandalf was barely able to get Bilbo to even leave it behind, he was worried he would have to force Bilbo to do it and probably destroy him in the process. If Elrond had confronted Isildur too directly and told him that it was non negotiable to destroy the ring, especially right there in Mordor where the ring is at the height of its power, it’s entirely possible he could have ended up pushing Isildur to become ring-lord himself. At that point they’d have had to kill him and dispossess him of the ring or face total subjugation: and if someone like Elrond who knows how the rings work ends that struggle by by killing his own ally and friend and seizing the ring, then who would stop him from becoming ring-lord? Basically if the One ever got directly into the hands of the Noldor, it would be an utter disaster for them (and everyone else). Compared to something like that, leaving Isildur in possession of a cursed magical machine that he didn’t really understand the power of must have seemed like a pretty good idea. A lot of what the elves do in LOTR itself makes a lot more sense once you look at the other stuff and realize that the elves who made it to LOTR are the guys who survived watching their entire race exterminate itself over the millennia by trying to accomplish things that they fundamentally couldn’t do. indigi posted:my thing is, they’re all dumbasses. who or what else could it have possibly been? it’s either the Witch King, who we should probably deal with, or it’s Sauron, meaning he’s back, also something we should deal with. there’s nothing in all LotR and extended sources that hints any old dickhead could become magically powerful unless they’re an Ainu or empowered by one, so they knew it had to be Sauron (or one of his empowered lieutenants) I don’t think this is fair. Many Tolkien things are magic without direct involvement of the gods. Probably the most obvious example is that Isildur, before the war with Sauron, ring, etc., was already able to curse an entire race of people so hard that they lingered as cursed ghosts for thousands of years. He was able to do this because the Numenorean kings were magic, having originally been given their land by the will of the gods, certainly. But it’s not like Manwe appeared directly to Isildur and told him how to do that. Why couldn’t there be a bloodline of evil sorcerers somewhere similarly instituted by Sauron or Morgoth? Remember, the whole rest of the world is assumed by the westerners to have been under the dominance of evil forces since almost the beginning of creation. Also you can learn dark magic from talking to pissed off elven ghosts. There’s a bit somewhere in Morgoth’s Ring about it.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:17
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Book Elrond and Book Gandalf both turn to the camera and explain why Frodo had to go with a small band of companions and not another massed army of the baddest dudes on the good guy side
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Jun 13, 2021 21:52
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Book Elrond and Book Gandalf both turn to the camera and explain why Frodo had to go with a small band of companions and not another massed army of the baddest dudes on the good guy side could at least send glorfindel with them imo apparently in the first draft of fellowship he actually was part of the quest??? wtf tolkien
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Jun 13, 2021 21:58
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Jazerus posted:could at least send glorfindel with them imo Harder to write good jokes about Glorfindel than about stupidly rich short kids 1 & 2
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Jun 13, 2021 22:00
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Meriadoc is a grown up
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Jun 13, 2021 22:13
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Glorfindel instead of Legoland and when they encounter Durin's Bane he's like "ah Mandos, not this poo poo again."
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Jun 13, 2021 22:20
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I wish the elves in the Jackson movies were a bit more cheerful. They do nail the otherworldly sense pretty well but none of them have much of the tact or warmth of tolkien elves and they all feel a bit aloof. Elrond especially feels a bit too bitter and cold in the films compared to the endlessly polite and kind character he is in the books and he's got such low opinions of the other races. I know that the change is mainly there so that he and the jerkass elves can have a mini redemption arc in The Two Towers but it can be hard to reconcile that when the War of the Last Alliance was meant to be the last time the Elves would stand at the forefront of affairs in Middle Earth. But that would leave audiences annoyed at the elves non intervention in the war of the ring, so they had to finagle a reason for the elves to take up arms once again. Them's the breaks for adaptation, I guess. It's discordant with the books and manufactured for the films so I can't say it's really wrong-headed in isolation but I can't say I would be upset if we got an adaptation that kept the more joyful side of the elves to emphasize their passing beauty in the twilight years of their existence rather than a blaze of glory sacrifice.
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Jun 13, 2021 22:59
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well the elves did go out swinging, they just couldn’t really fit in attacks on Dol Guldur etc into the movies, so they showed up at Helm’s Deep instead
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Jun 13, 2021 23:51
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overall Tolkien’s cosmology is bunk because hobbits exist without explanation
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Jun 13, 2021 23:54
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indigi posted:overall Tolkien’s cosmology is bunk because hobbits exist without explanation all of the cosmology is written by the peoples of middle earth and hobbits don't care about that poo poo so they didn't write anything
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Jun 13, 2021 23:58
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Hobbits wrote the red book which includes the Hobbit LotR and Silmarillion!
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Jun 14, 2021 00:04
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Details details
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Jun 14, 2021 00:10
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celeborn here. please do NOT laugh at my quenya name (teleporno)
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Jun 14, 2021 00:11
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The elves lasting contribution to Middle Earth is 12000+ years of suffering and one of the best metal albums ever recorded.
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Jun 14, 2021 00:15
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which is to say, another ~40 minutes of suffering
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Jun 14, 2021 01:14
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indigi posted:which is to say, another ~40 minutes of suffering Tears unnumbered you will shed and dwell in pain.
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Jun 14, 2021 01:22
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An elf's teenage goth poetry phase is both brutal for the audience and longer than most human life spans
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Jun 14, 2021 08:49
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indigi posted:well the elves did go out swinging, they just couldn’t really fit in attacks on Dol Guldur etc into the movies, so they showed up at Helm’s Deep instead There are three more PJ films where we get the attack on Dul Guldur, as well as other important scenes like making it clear that Galadriel was loving Gandalf Tell me where is Gandalf... for I much desire to speak with him
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Jun 14, 2021 09:54
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Barudak posted:An elf's teenage goth poetry phase is both brutal for the audience and longer than most human life spans Also probably especially because of the importance of poetry in Middle-Earth. Edgar Allen Ho posted:There are three more PJ films where we get the attack on Dul Guldur, as well as other important scenes like making it clear that Galadriel was loving Gandalf Oddly enough that works. Maybe because Galadriel is so terribly beautiful and powerful everyone else is too terrified to even think of hitting on her, and she's massively pent up, but Gandalf knows the score.
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Jun 14, 2021 12:08
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You know Im really coming around on Bard, heir of Girion, Lord of Dale, Sasser of Dwarves. Finishing up the hobbit I appreciate Tolkein saying the dwarf rings didn't corrupt the dwarves because they were already greed addled idiots self destructively navel gazing at wealth. Sauron must have felt real stupid giving them seven rings, especially when almost half got themselves killed and rings destroyed by dragons. All 9 of the human rings stayed in tact, only 1 dwarf ring lasted on a living persons finger to 70 years prior to the lord of the rings.
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Jun 14, 2021 13:55
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:There are three more PJ films where we get the attack on Dul Guldur, as well as other important scenes like making it clear that Galadriel was loving Gandalf no there’s an attack on Dol Guldur concurrent with the battle at Morannon
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Jun 14, 2021 14:39
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Jazerus posted:could at least send glorfindel with them imo this has the same problem as sending an army, it's a big beacon to the bad guys flashing "hey something real interesting's going on over here"
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Jun 14, 2021 16:15
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idk how it’s more flashy than sending the prince of Mirkwood, future Steward of Gondor, the heir of Isildur, and a freaking Maiar
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Jun 14, 2021 16:46
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The plan was for a lot of them to probably not go further alongside Frodo than back across the mountains until Gandalf died. And Aragorn in particular was unknown to Sauron until he reveals himself in the palantir.
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Jun 14, 2021 16:51
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isn't Glorfindel Calaquendi? sending one of the few remaining Noldor lords would be a big deal, Legolas is small fry by comparison. and yes a lot of them were planning to go to Minas Tirith rather than head toward Mordor with Frodo.
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Jun 14, 2021 17:00
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indigi posted:my thing is, they’re all dumbasses. who or what else could it have possibly been? it’s either the Witch King, who we should probably deal with, or it’s Sauron, meaning he’s back, also something we should deal with. there’s nothing in all LotR and extended sources that hints any old dickhead could become magically powerful unless they’re an Ainu or empowered by one, so they knew it had to be Sauron (or one of his empowered lieutenants) yeah i mean even if it HAD been some random dickhead it seems awfully lame to let him hang out in thranduil's dad's house for a thousand years indigi posted:idk how it’s more flashy than sending the prince of Mirkwood, future Steward of Gondor, the heir of Isildur, and a freaking Maiar glorfindel is just that cool
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Jun 14, 2021 17:02
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indigi posted:idk how it’s more flashy than sending the prince of Mirkwood, future Steward of Gondor, the heir of Isildur, and a freaking Maiar two failsons (three of you count gimli) whose entire lives mostly involve running errands of no consequence, a hanger-on in elrond's court, and admittedly a maiar yeah about half of the council of elrond are people who just happened to be hanging around and didn't have any more pressing business Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 17:14
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The plan was for a lot of them to probably not go further alongside Frodo than back across the mountains until Gandalf died. And Aragorn in particular was unknown to Sauron until he reveals himself in the palantir. yeah but that’s kind of my point, it’s not like he’s tracking everyone with GPS. even someone with the blood of Isildur is completely unknown to him. I can see why Gandalf using some spells in the vicinity of Mordor might ping his alarm system but as long as Glorfy doesn’t go about singing Noldor songs across the plains of Gorgoroth he should be fine. or send Elladan and Elrohir if you’re worried, nobody knows what those dorks get up to
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Jun 14, 2021 18:58
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indigi posted:or send Elladan and Elrohir if you’re worried, nobody knows what those dorks get up to elrond wants to do this but gandalf convinces him that merry and pippin's closeness with frodo make them more valuable
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Jun 14, 2021 19:38
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Cease to Hope posted:elrond wants to do this but gandalf convinces him that merry and pippin's closeness with frodo make them more valuable Oh right, five failsons. indigi posted:yeah but that’s kind of my point, it’s not like he’s tracking everyone with GPS. even someone with the blood of Isildur is completely unknown to him. I can see why Gandalf using some spells in the vicinity of Mordor might ping his alarm system but as long as Glorfy doesn’t go about singing Noldor songs across the plains of Gorgoroth he should be fine. or send Elladan and Elrohir if you’re worried, nobody knows what those dorks get up to To anyone with any kind of connection to the spirit world Glorfindel shines like a goddamn floodlight, because he's a prince of the far-gone days who has lived under the Light of the Two Trees alongside the Valar in Aman. He's not treading lightly anywhere. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 22:46
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Aragorn has a lot of failson energy until the end.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:49
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Gandalf the Grey hides his spiritual oomph (think of when he tells Bilbo that he’s gonna see him uncloaked if he doesn’t shut up). With Glorfindel it’s out and proud.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:06
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Yeah, Gandalf runs silent most of the time. He doesn't really ever do big magic unless he absolutley has to and relies a lot on mundane things like "hitting a goblin in the loving face with a sword" Gimli cannot be called a failson because that implies his dad ever ascended beyond the illustrious rank of "coattail rider"
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Jun 15, 2021 09:45
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Barudak posted:Gimli cannot be called a failson because that implies his dad ever ascended beyond the illustrious rank of "coattail rider" a failson in a long line of failsons
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Jun 15, 2021 11:03
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Cease to Hope posted:a failson in a long line of failsons In tolkein naming I assume that would be Failson, son of Faildad, son of Failpatriarch
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Jun 15, 2021 13:02
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Barudak posted:In tolkein naming I assume that would be Failnor son of Failwe
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Jun 15, 2021 13:50
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Dick son of Groin son of Boob
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Jun 15, 2021 15:14
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Thorin is a real poo poo but my god Dain you are a terrible commander. "Hrm lets not wait for allied reinforcement to break this stalemate and charge right now into a numbers disadvantage" Also I understand why the humans say they need the gold but, its very tangential to what they actually need since who the hell is going to send them houses down the river. Is there a middle earth trailer home company upstream? This whole problem could have been fixed by having the humans just crash on Thorin's couch for a season or two.
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Jun 15, 2021 16:31
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