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I don't disagree that it's about gender roles, but even if it was a man on reception (something unthinkable), it would look better for them to be reading a magazine. That's even before you have the excuse that magazines have advertisements in them. Also, I agree that Don is mad at Dr Miller for "causing" Allison to leave.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:25
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KellHound posted:My money is on Cooper because he is out there all the time and we do have him commenting on what reception should look like later in the show. "They can see her from the elevator" Yeah, Cooper or Roger. Cooper has more inclination to micro-manage, but also the optics of Megan reading a novel seems way more like something Roger might care about. That Dawn scene with Cooper is so darkly funny, though. "I'm all for the National Advancement of Colored People, but I don't think they should Advance all the way to the front of this office..." Pitch perfect for how and in what way that guy would be racist.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:32
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Jerusalem posted:This is still America and it's still capitalism though, and so Roger and Don both are at pains to remind Lee that he's dealing with a stacked deck: sure there is new legislation aimed at reducing smoking.... but it's legislation that HIS lawyers helped draft in the first place. Lucky Strike made suggestions that essentially dealt with problems they'd already taken steps to reduce or avoid using: no more teenagers, no more athletes, no more wide shots or low-angles that made the smoker appear somehow superhuman. The great thing that Slattery does here as a director is shooting Hamm from a low angle with a wide lens as he smokes and delivers these lines.
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Jun 8, 2021 01:21
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brushwad posted:The great thing that Slattery does here as a director is shooting Hamm from a low angle with a wide lens as he smokes and delivers these lines. Ahaha, I didn't even notice that but that is brilliant 
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Jun 8, 2021 03:12
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Yoshi Wins posted:I think Trudy's trepidation when Pete comes home is mostly because Pete showed a lot of resistance to being a father at all in season 2, questioning the whole idea that having a child is "what comes next" for a married couple. And Trudy knows that Pete throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way, and the father of her child throwing a tantrum over that child's conception would be a terrible blow. There's also the possibility that Pete will think Trudy cares about Tom more than him, since Tom found out first. But I think that's secondary. She doesn't know if Pete will love his own child (man, putting it that way... yikes), and surely her dreams of being a loving mother to a wonderful child also involved being married to a loving father. But she just didn't know if she could count on that. She's worried that another dinner is going out the window.
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Jun 8, 2021 03:22
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I love it when Mad Men makes an episode centered around a central theme. I guess for this one...is fitting into new roles? Don sleeping around getting to him kinda fits that, but I'm thinking more about Peggy and Pete. They're the Silent Generation, an awkward time to be born without the burnishment of the Greatest or the cultural dominance of Baby Boomers. Becoming adults when functionally the world shifts hard to mirror our own reality. So they're left to create their own identities. Peggy dabbling with the artistic outpouring happening in NYC, and Pete shuffling into a role much older than his years. And speaking of Pete, he got the Don Draper moment this episode. You remember how in the first season Don would be full of angst and then pull out a win by his pluck and immense capability. We saw that with Pete! Finally, we see what account men do. Either fence and play nice at lunch (with Ken, look at how different Pete is here to practically any other place. Ken gets by with his friendly demeanor that seems at least somewhat natural, Pete turns into a focused, understanding machine). And Pete reading the room and going for the jugular, figuring out when he can drop the obsequies act and finally lay out his proper sense of what roles should be, re his father in law. Whatta great scene, and honestly up there with most of Don's revelatory ad pitches.
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Jun 10, 2021 15:32
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I remember cringing at Pete's scene because it seems petty and self-indulgent, and it didn't look like he stood to gain anything by antagonizing his wife's father. He could've done literally nothing and let Trudy handle it, but no he just had to get his jab in. He takes what people say and think about him way too seriously. This whole episode was a big W for him and he just couldn't not rub someone's nose in it. I can't help but think his decision this episode is what influenced his father-in-law to push the "mutually assured destruction" button later, with telling Trudy about the whole brothel thing.
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Jun 10, 2021 15:58
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Has anyone else ever posted that Trudy's dad is also the dad from Clarissa Explains it All? Because that's the only thing I think of when he's on screen. My childhood coming back to haunt my future shows Just like Ken's wife is Alex Mack
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Jun 11, 2021 03:53
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I certainly think it, a lot
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Jun 11, 2021 04:16
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And Joyce is David Mamet's daughter, Zosia Mamet. Where does it end??
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Jun 11, 2021 04:27
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Pete not being able to resist rubbing it in really says so much about him. He's very much a sore winner, especially considering he was born into a level of privilege most people could only ever dream of. That said, it is interesting considering that Roger and Pete essentially had very similar upbringing (Roger's dad was "new money" as far as I can tell?) with the major difference being that Roger served in World War 2 and gets to be lauded for that, while Pete was too young for Korea and is obviously (unless poo poo REALLY goes sideways for him, and hell I have no idea what is coming) going to be protected from ever having to go to Vietnam, and he's probably simultaneously relieved and feels guilty about the fact he won't ever have that "legitimacy" that Roger and even Don have.
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Jun 11, 2021 06:54
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Pete's probably older than 26, married, with a kid on the way, he wouldn't get drafted. Peak Vietnam draftee age would have been born in 45-48. my dad was born in 45, got college and grad school deferments until the first lottery in 69 I think, then got a high number. my step-dad had a high number in the 70 lottery. WW2 and Korea was drafting 18-35, the percentage of drafted/enlisted men was around 70/30, and that is about flipped for Vietnam in comparison.
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Jun 11, 2021 07:55
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GoutPatrol posted:Has anyone else ever posted that Trudy's dad is also the dad from Clarissa Explains it All? Because that's the only thing I think of when he's on screen. My childhood coming back to haunt my future shows Ok, that's it. I can't take it anymore. I have to come out of lurk mode because someone has to say it: St John Powell is the dad from the Nanny, why was this never discussed. ok. thank you. I love this thread. Really wonderful work.
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Jun 11, 2021 11:54
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x ampersand oh posted:Ok, that's it. I can't take it anymore. I have to come out of lurk mode because someone has to say it: Whenever the dad from The Nanny is not on screen, all the other characters should be asking, "Where's the dad from The Nanny?"
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Jun 11, 2021 12:21
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x ampersand oh posted:Ok, that's it. I can't take it anymore. I have to come out of lurk mode because someone has to say it: 
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Jun 11, 2021 13:21
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ElectronicOldMen posted:Whenever the dad from The Nanny is not on screen, all the other characters should be asking, "Where's the dad from The Nanny?" His name is mr.sheffield. He also did the British voice for the protag in saints row 2
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Jun 11, 2021 14:23
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Jerusalem posted:Pete not being able to resist rubbing it in really says so much about him. He's very much a sore winner, especially considering he was born into a level of privilege most people could only ever dream of. Is Pete's behavior here so different from Don's lording it over his clients, and unnecessarily exerting his authority and dominance after winning something? Pete's efforts are of course a darker and hosed up reflection, but that's is whole deal. Regardless, this is Pete at his most self possessed. Pete at maximum Pete.
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Jun 11, 2021 14:36
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Jerusalem posted:Pete not being able to resist rubbing it in really says so much about him. He's very much a sore winner, especially considering he was born into a level of privilege most people could only ever dream of. I think another major difference is Roger's father died when he was young (young like teen or early twenties). At least that was my take away when Cooper talked to his sister about having promised to take care of Roger. And it seems like Roger got along with/was spoiled by his parents. That relationship definitely has a big impact on the difference between them.
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Jun 12, 2021 02:42
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Yeah, I'm really interested in if his loving about in Europe was before or after his father's death. I get the impression it might have been before his father's death, and since then he's kind of been caught between his successes as an "adult" mixed with the belief that most everything he has in his life wasn't REALLY earned or that he got there by standing on the shoulders of giants. His own peculiar version of imposter syndrome, I guess. He talks about it a bit in season 1, about going back in history and always finding the previous generation complaining about the current or the next, and it comes out in later episodes where he tells Cooper he knows he looks down on him (which really means Roger looks down on himself) for not experiencing the Great Depression. Kind of like how Don admitted that the Korean veterans didn't get the same "glory" as the WW2 guys did (and boy howdy are the Vietnam vets in for a bad time).
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jun 12, 2021 |
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Jun 12, 2021 03:05
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Sorry for the bump, just wanted to say I have a hell of a lot on at the moment which is why there hasn't been a new write-up. I hope to get the time set aside to do the next episode in the next day or so.
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Jun 14, 2021 09:01
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah, I'm really interested in if his loving about in Europe was before or after his father's death. I get the impression it might have been before his father's death, and since then he's kind of been caught between his successes as an "adult" mixed with the belief that most everything he has in his life wasn't REALLY earned or that he got there by standing on the shoulders of giants. His own peculiar version of imposter syndrome, I guess. He talks about it a bit in season 1, about going back in history and always finding the previous generation complaining about the current or the next, and it comes out in later episodes where he tells Cooper he knows he looks down on him (which really means Roger looks down on himself) for not experiencing the Clutch Plague. Kind of like how Don admitted that the Korean veterans didn't get the same "glory" as the WW2 guys did (and boy howdy are the Vietnam vets in for a bad time). Yeah, Roger has his own insecurities. But like parents spoiling/being supportive of Roger, I think means Roger while with imposter syndrome, knows how to foster a relationship at least on a superficial level. And he also never really thinks about life being unfair. From his POV, if something doesn't go his way, it's because he didn't foster a relationship or didn't try hard enough. I think part of why Pete is more liberal if that his parents hating him and blatantly favoring his brother made him see unfairness (in his limited over privileged way). So he hears the world is unfair and then civil right come around and he's like "yeah, it IS unfair" while not realizing that he isn't the one getting the short end of the stick.
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Jun 14, 2021 18:04
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I finally got caught up on this thread after starting it last week. I was initially going to rewatch as well but Jeru's writeups are so good it seems unnecessary. Thank you Jerusalem for all your hard work!
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Jun 14, 2021 19:01
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metachronos posted:I finally got caught up on this thread after starting it last week. I was initially going to rewatch as well but Jeru's writeups are so good it seems unnecessary. Thank you Jerusalem for all your hard work! i did the opposite! i started a rewatch when Jeru was starting season 2 and intended to just keep up with them but once i got there, couldn't stop and binged through all of it for like the 4th time Mover posted:Same! Was fun though. oh absolutely—this is definitely my favorite show of all time aBagorn fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 21:19
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aBagorn posted:i did the opposite! i started a rewatch when Jeru was starting season 2 and intended to just keep up with them but once i got there, couldn't stop and binged through all of it for like the 4th time Same! Was fun though.
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Jun 14, 2021 21:20
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by the time Jerusalem has finished the series I'll probably have completed 3 rewatches E: that's not a dig at j if that's what it sounds like. it's more like "rewatches" because i throw it on in the background while I do other things sometimes The Klowner fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 21:56
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I had originally intended to watch the show alongside the recaps, but then I realized that Jeru's recaps are so thorough, and my attention span is so bad, that I actually get more out of the show from reading the recaps than watching it myself. I did watch it when it was on, but my memories of it are so bad that I apparently forgot about an entire one of Don's wives (e: oh wait, maybe it wasn't a wife, just a love interest. either way i forgot about the entire character of dr. miller) Ainsley McTree fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 22:11
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Yeah, just a love interest. She's upset at how she's so quickly tossed aside for Megan, but honestly, she dodged a bullet.
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Jun 15, 2021 01:28
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KellHound posted:and he's like "yeah, it IS unfair" while not realizing that he isn't the one getting the short end of the stick. This is a really good way of putting it I think. I also like that another driving force of Pete's ideas about equality is that he doesn't see why they shouldn't be trying to make money off of EVERYBODY... because that means they get more money! It's a capitalist approach for sure, but he's also grown up being told that capitalism is the absolute A1 way of doing things so he's bewildered when the so-called masters of capitalism balk at the idea of advertising to black people.... black people have money!
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Jun 15, 2021 02:00
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Yoshi Wins posted:Yeah, just a love interest. She's upset at how she's so quickly tossed aside for Megan, but honestly, she dodged a bullet. A lot of people think that She was a magic bullet that would've cured Don. I personally never got that. I think it's like people who think he shoulda just moved to California. They miss that his problems are internal and a change in living context isn't going to change anything unless he can deal with his internal turmoil. Dating your Psychologist is also a terrible idea
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Jun 15, 2021 02:02
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Gaius Marius posted:A lot of people think that She was a magic bullet that would've cured Don. I personally never got that. I think it's like people who think he shoulda just moved to California. They miss that his problems are internal and a change in living context isn't going to change anything unless he can deal with his internal turmoil. Yeah. Their last conversation before he leaves for Disneyland is her trying to convince him for the second time to address his situation living as an impostor. She believes he can do something about it, which is likely true, since he's rich and well-connected. But there'd be some risk involved, legally, and probably more importantly, if he had to start signing his checks as Dick Whitman, he'd have to say SOMETHING to other people in his life, like Roger or Peggy, and he can't stand having them know about his past. So, he had his chance to be "cured" by Faye, and he rejected it. She is the sort of person who can help a relationship partner become more self-actualized, but Don's just not receptive to it at that point.
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Jun 15, 2021 04:03
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So while reading along with Jerusalem's wonderful recaps I have also been watching Youtube videos of scenes to help jog my memory alongside some critical analysis videos of the show of varying qualities. Anyway, the algorithm spat this fun little video out for me: (spoilers for season 6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLqe4sGRvtU
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Jun 15, 2021 13:38
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Mild season 5 Spoiler? I just started watching Wandavision and was delighted to see Teyona Parrish (Dawn) playing a character that, at least for a while in the late 60s or early 70s, works at an ad agency.
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Jun 16, 2021 15:54
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I really wish the show featured more Dawn. It got criticized for not focusing on civil rights and the black experience in the 60s, and I agree with that in the later seasons. I think it's OK that it takes a backseat in the early seasons, because society was more segregated and white people were more comfortable ignoring black struggles at that time. But in the late 60s, things were changing, which the show acknowledges by starting to feature black employees at ad agencies. Which is good. But Dawn remains a fairly minor character. I think she should have been at least as important as Ginsburg in those final seasons, but probably more important than that. Like, as important as Stan maybe. She's our window into a whole other world.
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Jun 16, 2021 18:03
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Yoshi Wins posted:I really wish the show featured more Dawn. It got criticized for not focusing on civil rights and the black experience in the 60s, and I agree with that in the later seasons. I think it's OK that it takes a backseat in the early seasons, because society was more segregated and white people were more comfortable ignoring black struggles at that time. But in the late 60s, things were changing, which the show acknowledges by starting to feature black employees at ad agencies. Which is good. But Dawn remains a fairly minor character. I think she should have been at least as important as Ginsburg in those final seasons, but probably more important than that. Like, as important as Stan maybe. She's our window into a whole other world. otoh i'm not sure weiner et al could tell her story well. or cover that world in a meaningful way
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Jun 16, 2021 20:38
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aBagorn posted:otoh i'm not sure weiner et al could tell her story well. or cover that world in a meaningful way Part of the point is while this was huge for America, it was only intersecting with the wealthy white advertising agencies in small amounts. Similar to the changing of music making Don realize he's out of touch, and not the message of the music
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Jun 16, 2021 20:52
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lmao at that video. It's incredibly, incredibly minor but should it also be under a spoiler tag? I'm torn on the Dawn thing, I thought they did a great job with what they did show us but I also am not sure I have faith they would have done better had they given her more of a subplot. Her actress came out recently as saying that she wasn't even sure how big of a role they wanted to give her, to the point that she didn't know if she'd have job security with it and was worried she'd get written off after basically every episode? so that's not great. Just a snippet from that article: Teyonah Parris posted:“I was a recurring. That did happen. I was really excited. But I never knew I was a recurring because they never told me, ‘You’re a recurring!’ It was literally for the entire time I was there, I would say it was like three years, one episode at a time. They never said, ‘Hey, this season you’ll be in five episodes so I could be like, ‘Yes! Okay! This is great!’ It was always, ‘We’re checking your availability for tomorrow.’ And I’m like, ‘Okay, I didn’t die. They didn’t fire me or kick me out of the office,’ so I always felt like I was holding my breath with that show because they never actually were like, ‘Hey, this is the future we have for you,’ etc. So it was always an inch at a time and never knowing if the door was gonna close that moment.” It kind of sounds like even the writing staff didn't know where they wanted to go with her 
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Jun 16, 2021 20:54
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Blood Nightmaster posted:lmao at that video. It's incredibly, incredibly minor but should it also be under a spoiler tag?
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Jun 17, 2021 03:15
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Blood Nightmaster posted:It kind of sounds like even the writing staff didn't know where they wanted to go with her Also as a big Megan fan, and someone whose always thought she was far more interesting a character than betty. They really really gave her short shrift. I blame every second of screentime they gave Weiner's failson Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Jun 17, 2021 |
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Jun 17, 2021 04:10
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I agree that Ginsberg and chaough got shafted but Cutler definitely has an arc in season 7, if a rather straightforward one and one that somewhat parallels Duck's in s2
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Jun 17, 2021 04:59
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Season 7 part 1 casts Don as a protagonist much more than any other part of the show, and the villains he must overcome are the cunning Cutler and his dumbfuck minion Lou.
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Jun 17, 2021 05:28
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