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Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010

Upset Trowel
I don't know why but I just thought of this again.

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Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
Celebrian Cirdan Elendil Erestor Finarfin Haldir (pour one out for a real one HAAAAAAAALDDDDDDDDDDDIRRRRRRRRRRRRR-Viggo M.) and Orophin

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
You forgot Bergil.

Also holy poo poo Bergil was played by child Logan Lerman for the what, two seconds of unnamed screentime he got in Return of the King?

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?
Narmacil is one of the kings of Gondor from the appendix and i think Minalcar probably is as well

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Barudak posted:

Thorin is a real poo poo but my god Dain you are a terrible commander. "Hrm lets not wait for allied reinforcement to break this stalemate and charge right now into a numbers disadvantage"

Also I understand why the humans say they need the gold but, its very tangential to what they actually need since who the hell is going to send them houses down the river. Is there a middle earth trailer home company upstream?

This whole problem could have been fixed by having the humans just crash on Thorin's couch for a season or two.

You can buy lumber with money or pay for food to deal with the reduced output from Smaug's attack. Or buy all the stuff other than houses that they lost. Sure'd be nice to come out of that tragedy with some kind of benefit rather than just a net loss (and loss of nets at a fishing village).

In the Peter Jackson movies there were the convenient vacant ruins of a human-sized city at the foot of the lonely mountain that the lake people could live in, although there's still the issue of not having an active food source at hand.

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Its mentioned in the hobbit that Smaug went straight to attacking Esgaroth, expecting to be able to kill the survivors and destroy their food later so much of the farm infrastructure is intact. Im not saying food isn't a concern, it 100% is, its just the housing is the more pressing priority.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


Lemniscate Blue posted:

Oh right, five failsons.


Totally unnecessary roughness against two dudes who did a lot for saying the bar was "survive to adulthood and don't ruin the family's good name."

Pennywise the Frown posted:

I don't know why but I just thought of this again.



This is a trick question right?

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?

Lemniscate Blue posted:

Oh right, five failsons.

wtf one got an assist on the Witch King and the other killed a troll that’s at the top of the list of any Hobbit accomplishments. more impressive than anything Gimli or Legolas or Aragorn did. oh wow we ran really far one time. cool

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.
Failsons at the start, I mean. They grew up, literally and figuratively, quite a lot and I love both their arcs.

But at the start of the story? Merry had a half-decent head in his shoulders but neither of them were anything more than candidates for Upper-Class Twit of the Year, Shire Edition.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
well to be fair there’s not much else to get up to in the Shire. the most renowned Hobbit ever is mainly remembered for riding a pony and the most notorious hobbit is famous for going on a long vacation with some friends

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

indigi posted:

well to be fair there’s not much else to get up to in the Shire. the most renowned Hobbit ever is mainly remembered for riding a pony

and decapitating the leader of a band of invading goblins with a club

Jazerus
May 24, 2011


are we really going to avoid calling frodo a failson if pippin and merry count??

only sam is pure

Zesty
Jan 17, 2012

The Great Twist
Samwise Gamgee is a hustler with a trowel. :cool:

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
samwise is a noble and loyal servant, while frodo is idle rich

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

Jazerus posted:

are we really going to avoid calling frodo a failson if pippin and merry count??

only sam is pure

Okay, six.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
how is Gandalf not a failson he didn’t do anything of note for the first 20k+ years of Arda’s existence and almost got punked by Sauron on 1% battery

sat on my keys!
Oct 2, 2014

indigi posted:

how is Gandalf not a failson he didn’t do anything of note for the first 20k+ years of Arda’s existence and almost got punked by Sauron on 1% battery

don't forget that he spent a great deal of that time couchsurfing

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
His love of the halflings' leaf clearly slowed his mind.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

indigi posted:

how is Gandalf not a failson he didn’t do anything of note for the first 20k+ years of Arda’s existence and almost got punked by Sauron on 1% battery

Incarnate gods are lazy bastards. They kind of share the elvish trait of just letting poo poo happen for decades or centuries before doing anything about it, because what’s the point in hurrying when you live forever? Sauron has run a ruthless industrial empire with absolute power and absolutely no scruples for millennia and can’t manage to conquer a handful of lousy nations or come up with any better strategic solution than “attack them everywhere with lots of dudes”. Dude should have applied his godly powers to come up with howitzers

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Further proof that Fingolfin was the best Elf because the moment the Battle of Sudden Flame erupted he was convinced it was the apocalypse and immediately ran over to Satan's doorstep to smack him around with his best Eagle Friend doing some face gouging.

Barudak
May 7, 2007

Gandalf took 17 years to tell Frodo about the One Ring because he was going to do it tomorrow but like, today is about some pipe leaf.

<wakes up in a haze in gondor holding o page showing how to determine one-ringness> "OooooooOoOoOoOooOoOoOoOOOOOOH poo poo!" <starts sprinting in his bathrobe towards the Shire>

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002

skasion posted:

Incarnate gods are lazy bastards. They kind of share the elvish trait of just letting poo poo happen for decades or centuries before doing anything about it, because what’s the point in hurrying when you live forever? Sauron has run a ruthless industrial empire with absolute power and absolutely no scruples for millennia and can’t manage to conquer a handful of lousy nations or come up with any better strategic solution than “attack them everywhere with lots of dudes”. Dude should have applied his godly powers to come up with howitzers

Sauron is the one dude who legit has a grip on strategy; biding his time and building up his forces away from prying eyes until it's too late. The only thing he does wrong (other than misunderestimating God) is to attack before his already 99% chance of victory is clinched at 100%.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
to be fair if he’d waited much longer Saruman might have beaten him to the punch

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





indigi posted:

to be fair if he’d waited much longer Saruman might have beaten him to the punch

That probably would have worked in his favor though. The ring would probably let Saruman streamroll Rohan and Gondor, but his armies aren't powerful enough to take on Mordor. Saruman would be fighting alone against Sauron as he was trying to learn how to use the One. No way he would win that war.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
I feel like Shadows of Mordor's DLC does a pretty good illustration of what trying to fight Sauron with the One Ring is like. Best case scenario, the thing isn't going to stick with you for a moment longer than necessary to get close enough to switch, and then everything you've done with it will turn against you.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


indigi posted:

to be fair if he’d waited much longer Saruman might have beaten him to the punch

I'll bow to superior expertise of other posters but my read was kind of that Saruman moving too fast was part of what screwed the whole thing up. Saruman's failure at Helm's Deep comes down in a lot of ways to it being a rush job - he does a literal hasty assault, with an army that is not nearly well-trained or cohesive enough to keep his complex plans in order. Doing a better assault would have taken more time; having an army capable of doing that better assault - or to withstanding reversals in combat, among other issues - would have taken yet more time. Treebeard diagnoses Saruman like this:

Treebeard posted:

He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment.

Saruman moves fast and breaks things - he makes plans that are complex and fragile and neither account well for contingency nor for the needs or behaviors of his followers. It's hard to say what would have happened had Saruman taken more time - the ring quest did kind of force him to move - but also it's part of who Saruman is that his plans are like clocks and he just moves out with them as soon as he can get them up to bare minimum with little resilience or contingency. All of this leads to the unification of the armies of men before Sauron even gets out there.

It's not nearly the main point with Saruman, since I think most of Tolkien's intent is conveyed even if you don't think that hard about the military metaphor for Saruman's industrialism and lack of trust in people, but I do think it's a neat little set of things.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Saruman as a tech bro explains a lot. He's specifically an imitator of Sauron, seduced by his fancy toys and brutal methods. He's also a wizard, and very, very smart- wizards know things; magical, spiritual, historical, practical and even scientific. (in the movies at least, both Gandalf and Saruman use gunpowder; Gandalf for fireworks, Saruman for blasting charges. One suspects that Radagast and the other wizards are equally skilled in their own fields) However, he's specifically an imitator, only using and refining Sauron's methods and tools. (which are in turn, only mockeries of the beings of the world)

Gandalf puts his trust in people, and it pays off- those people are able to rally forces that no one thought of, and able to accomplish things no one expected.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
for all his haste Saruman still wins at Helm’s Deep without Merry and Pippin buffooning their way into Treebeard, even allowing for Gandalf showing up with Eomer. honestly the good guys only win in LotR due to four consecutive lottery tickets hitting for jackpots, Gandalf just had a hot hand at the craps table

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


indigi posted:

for all his haste Saruman still wins at Helm’s Deep without Merry and Pippin buffooning their way into Treebeard, even allowing for Gandalf showing up with Eomer. honestly the good guys only win in LotR due to four consecutive lottery tickets hitting for jackpots, Gandalf just had a hot hand at the craps table

The ents show up after the decisive moment (Theoden's cavalry sally). The effect of the ents isn't whether or not Saruman loses the battle (he has already), it's whether or not he has any force left afterward. Even that's dubious, because without the ents there's still Gandalf's cavalry force fresh and ready to pick off the routing forces, though likely to do so less efficiently or cleanly.

In the interest of clarity this is what the battle looks like in order of events per https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Hornburg

1. Battle of Isen Ford
2. Theoden and his retreating forces link up and invest the fortress at Helm's Deep
3. Saruman's forces fill and overrun Helm's Dike (1st line)
4. Skirmishing commences and first attempt at breaking the gate with an improvised ram, which is defeated by a sally
5. Ladder assault coordinated with assault via a culvert, fails.
6. Wall is breached with explosives, defenders retreat from 2nd line to 3rd line of defense.
7. Gate to the keep is breached but is countercharged decisively by Theoden & Aragorn, forcing Saruman's forces all the way back to Helm's Dike.
8. Gimli & Eomer sally from the caves and push them back even further. At this point the attack is irrecoverable.
9. Gandalf & Treebeard show up, turning a defeat into a rout as the Dunlendings surrender and the Uruk-hai get utterly owned.

I also don't think we're supposed to assume luck is a major factor. It's not consistent with Tolkien's writing or philosophy to have poo poo that just happens without being tied to some sort of moral meaning.

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?

Tulip posted:

The ents show up after the decisive moment (Theoden's cavalry sally). The effect of the ents isn't whether or not Saruman loses the battle (he has already), it's whether or not he has any force left afterward. Even that's dubious, because without the ents there's still Gandalf's cavalry force fresh and ready to pick off the routing forces, though likely to do so less efficiently or cleanly.

oh I don't mean on the day - if he doesn't have to worry about the Ents loving up Isengard he's well positioned to attack again when the cavalry won't be nearly as effective. even taking things as they happened though, without the Huorns finishing off all the Uruk-hai Theoden has to leave behind more men to guard Rohan from pillaging bands of orcs and Sauron might successfully take Minas Tirith


Tulip posted:

I also don't think we're supposed to assume luck is a major factor. It's not consistent with Tolkien's writing or philosophy to have poo poo that just happens without being tied to some sort of moral meaning.

I don't know if he meant it to be a series of dice rolls, but it was in the end. Bard killing Smaug and Gandalf killing the balrog - depriving Sauron of potentially lethal allies - were both pretty lucky, as was Pippin forcing Aragorn's hand with the palantir, Bilbo finding the Ring in the first place, Merry and Pippin bumping into Treebeard, Gollum tumbling into the lava, basically everything that happened to Frodo and Sam between Cirith Ungol and Mt. Doom (I'm pretty sure Sam outright says it), getting lost in the Old Forest, Sam being there at all - none of this was planned, it was all ultimately good fortune (even though most of it didn't seem so at the time). without any one of those things happening, Sauron probably wins

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?
Providence isn’t luck. Bilbo was meant to find the ring, etc

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
arguing that there's no dramatic tension in the whole story is consistent at least

Zesty
Jan 17, 2012

The Great Twist

indigi posted:

craps table

That's not a nice way to refer to Eru Ilúvatar.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

Saruman attacked early because his first plan for weakening Rohan fell apart because of Gandalf, but I'm not really sure what was going on with either his or Rohan's plans. Rohan evacuated most of the kingdom to a big historic fortress that I guess the uruk-hai had to assault directly because they don't have enough discipline to maintain a long siege? But also Saruman sent a force to go around Rivendell and the mountains to conquer the Shire because I guess he wanted a nice summer home.

But really Saruman and Sauron failed because the Fellowship of the Ring managed to awaken Theoden from his malaise, rile the Ents into action, call upon the ghosts of deserters, restore Gondor, and unite the forces of men to distract Sauron from Frodo and Sam and Gollum sneaking through Mordor to destroy the Ring, and after the fall of Sauron, the hobbits all became skilled enough to lead a rebellion to overthrow Saruman's forces in the Shire. It's the story of some powerful beings and their slave armies being overcome by friendship and people being willing to step up and do their duty and also they're sure good at usin' swords and junk.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?
The host of Rohan doesn’t move out intending to go to Helm’s Deep. They send the people to Dunharrow which is defensible and out of the way (in the movies they bring them along into a war zone because they’re psychos) and move towards Isengard to give battle. Then as they approach the Isen they meet a guy who tells them that Erkenbrand’s army was nearby, but has been beaten and is retreating on Helm’s Deep. So they go there on Gandalf’s advice to join up with them, only when they get there it turns out Saruman’s army is between them and Erkenbrand. Oops

Saruman straight up misjudges the military situation and loses his whole army, which kind of makes sense since he is an armchair general with 0 experience

Saruman’s plans in the Shire are economic not military. He doesn’t send an army there, he just gives a bunch (couple hundred) of people jobs.

ptkfvk
Apr 30, 2013

i love this thread

question: i vaguely remember that there were 2 different types of tree people. the Ents and the smaller younger trees from one of the weird woods. am i making something up?

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

ptkfvk posted:

i love this thread

question: i vaguely remember that there were 2 different types of tree people. the Ents and the smaller younger trees from one of the weird woods. am i making something up?

ents and huorns, yeah

indigi
Jul 20, 2004

how can we not talk about family
when family's all that we got?
Huorns weren’t younger iirc they were the super old ones who were much more treeish and hated orcs dwarves and humans real bad

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Old Man Willow

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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

ptkfvk posted:

i love this thread

question: i vaguely remember that there were 2 different types of tree people. the Ents and the smaller younger trees from one of the weird woods. am i making something up?

Ents are giants who look like trees
Huorns are the trees who are under ents’ care, who are kind of magic and evil-tempered and move around and kill people

However, way before they get to ents, when they’re leaving Buckland, they enter the forest there and it’s much lower key, but also kind of magic and evil-tempered and the trees move around and some of them were at least willing to entomb people alive.

Conclusion: trees default state is “we hate you”

There’s also entwives who were probably giantesses or something who knows

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