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Cynic Jester posted:Having things blow up catastrophically with no indication that they would blow up catastrophically isn't fun. The vast majority of hidden mechanics in games have a correct choice and a wrong choice, all easily looked up on a Wiki. Have you played CK3? Having poo poo blow up catastrophically is easily the best part.
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Jun 17, 2021 20:30
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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quote:gamers will optimize all the fun out of a video game if given the opportunity This is the truest statement about game design ever made, and one that gamers hate the most to hear.
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Jun 17, 2021 20:35
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Gamers will always optimize hidden stuff doesn’t effect that in any real way. The only way to do that is to somehow make it completely random. Which is a lot of effort for little pay off. Lbecause in the end your making something people play to have fun.
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Jun 17, 2021 20:40
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That's why i mentioned War in the Pacific as an example. I meant stuff like not having perfect information about every country's army and manpower pool, and having to rely on reports that are occasionally terrible.
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Jun 17, 2021 20:45
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this is why ss13 is the best video game because you can make all the right decisions and still die ignobly (and potentially rear end-less)
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Jun 17, 2021 20:45
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CharlestheHammer posted:Gamers will always optimize hidden stuff doesn’t effect that in any real way. If anything, randomizing makes it worse since there's still an optimal way to go about trying to game. the RNG, and it almost makes it more necessary to do so since it becomes a core component of the game. See: every roguelike having decisions optimized to hell and back.
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Jun 17, 2021 20:45
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AnoHito posted:If anything, randomizing makes it worse since there's still an optimal way to go about trying to game. the RNG, and it almost makes it more necessary to do so since it becomes a core component of the game. See: every roguelike having decisions optimized to hell and back. Yeah you can’t beat optimizers and why should you? Optimizers are doing it because that’s their play style and if you are doing it but hate it that is a personal problem
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Jun 17, 2021 20:48
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Also optimisation is mostly an issue when something is demonstrably better than something else, rather than being a theoretical possibility. Something more like issues CK2 has faced, like "it is a good strategy to take everybody's land and give it to a bunch of autogenerated priests to ensure stability". That's somewhat tedious, but very easy to do. Vicky 1 and 2 suffered a lot from that and it's been discussed many times. Pop splitting, manual stockpiling of goods because the AI doesn't know how to, and all sorts of other issues. EU4 and other Paradox games also suffer from it, but to a far lesser extent than is being presented. The insane powergaming where it's possible for an OPM to do a world conquest requires systemic mastery and optimisation fifteen levels deeper than most of us even think about, and that's kinda fair play. But you have so many things where you click a building, see every provincial bonus it'll give, and you're just looking for the biggest bonus either on the map or on some table, or you're mousing over icons to see which province will get +0.01 more tax if you develop it. Sincerely, gently caress that, and considering how each building is a fairly sizable investment, it makes players want to optimise these marginal gains even more. That's the kind of optimisation I'm worried about Vicky 3 suffering from more than anything, and it's likely going to be far more opaque due to how many more moving parts there will be, compared to EU4 and others.
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Jun 17, 2021 21:06
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They'll know when they've perfected a truly realistic simulation when powergamers try their level best to optimize the production of carefully-crafted industries in their garden-countries for maximum profit, and fail to perform better in an annualized basis than a broad market index fund.
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Jun 17, 2021 21:11
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That reminds me that i wish EU4 ironman let you do a single separate save a month into the game, because reloading the game a dozen times due to RNG if i want to play Byz or Albania is not fun gameplay.
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Jun 17, 2021 21:12
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Stairmaster posted:this is why ss13 is the best video game because you can make all the right decisions and still die ignobly (and potentially rear end-less) this is because other people are unknowable and at any moment someone might send a bomb through the mail system that explodes in transit right under your feet, or do any number of other things. if it was the computer randomly sending a bomb it would be stupid but because it's another person it's great.
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Jun 17, 2021 21:13
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Frionnel posted:That reminds me that i wish EU4 ironman let you do a single separate save a month into the game, because reloading the game a dozen times due to RNG if i want to play Byz or Albania is not fun gameplay. It effectively does, just use File Explorer to copy the save file. You can reload it all you want. Like it doesn't help you along, but it doesn't do anything to stop you either.
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Jun 17, 2021 21:33
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I'll admit to having optimization tendencies, but those are born out of this weird fear that if I don't play as optimally as possible, I'll fall behind and the whole playthrough will be for nothing, just wasted time. It's as if every game that offers you chances to customize your playstyle and try out different things are just elaborately designed trap-mazes for me to make it through. This might just be trauma from playing unmodded Oblivion at a formative stage in my life, I dunno Anyway, I wonder how many other optimizers are similarly motivated by anxiety rather than the desire to master a system, or to just get their regular power fantasy fill.
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Jun 17, 2021 22:21
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ThaumPenguin posted:I'll admit to having optimization tendencies, but those are born out of this weird fear that if I don't play as optimally as possible, I'll fall behind and the whole playthrough will be for nothing, just wasted time. It's as if every game that offers you chances to customize your playstyle and try out different things are just elaborately designed trap-mazes for me to make it through. Hey there, if-I-don't-play-perfectly-everything-will-collapse-around-my-ears buddy 
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Jun 17, 2021 22:50
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I just solve the issue of optimization by being bad at video games. Can't optimize your strategy to the point of trivializing if you play at Speed 4/5 without ever pausing and ignore half the tabs in the UI
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Jun 17, 2021 23:19
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anyway Wiz if you're reading this, it's clear that the people yearn for a force to challenge them and add chaos to what would normally be an orderly game. please add The Populists from Crete into Vicky 3 it will make the game better I promise you. it's what the people need
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Jun 17, 2021 23:22
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Takanago posted:anyway Wiz if you're reading this, it's clear that the people yearn for a force to challenge them and add chaos to what would normally be an orderly game. please add The Populists from Crete into Vicky 3 it will make the game better I promise you. it's what the people need You mean Anarcho-Liberals?
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Jun 17, 2021 23:26
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Takanago posted:anyway Wiz if you're reading this, it's clear that the people yearn for a force to challenge them and add chaos to what would normally be an orderly game. please add The Populists from Crete into Vicky 3 it will make the game better I promise you. it's what the people need Populists starts to build a Motion Order Change
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Jun 17, 2021 23:28
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Frionnel posted:That reminds me that i wish EU4 ironman let you do a single separate save a month into the game, because reloading the game a dozen times due to RNG if i want to play Byz or Albania is not fun gameplay. Just...don't play ironman?
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Jun 18, 2021 00:09
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Mans posted:Just...don't play ironman? But muh achievement
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Jun 18, 2021 00:34
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Steam Achievement Manager exists
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Jun 18, 2021 01:29
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I think it can be interesting to make it so that whenever you click on a province and look at the information you're seeing the information from X many days ago where X is a function of distance from the capital. The ideal thing for armies is if you had a human player who could only control armies, and can only see what his units see; but not what other armies see and this information is on a delay and can be inaccurate or spoofed by enemies; and what you see isn't what the player controlling the economy side of thing sees unless on a delay. You can try to communicate the current picture via VOIP replicating radio transmissions but this adds a lot of immersion. That'd be fun. If Paradox could make AI's that are good enough as to not make the player feel dread at giving the control of anything to an AI, that could be an interesting way to tie that sort of system together; I think paradox games with such a Fog of War can work; we see a lot of examples of submechanics making use of it, the first contact system in Stellaris; Intelligence in Arsenal of Democracy, to an extent the naval system in Hoi4; it just needs to be better and more of an even playing field and not the shortest way to have a playthrough ruined through chronic, systemic AI mismanagement. Victoria 3 feels as a game goes, one of the few paradox titles where war isn't a huge enough central focus that maybe a version of the above can be tested without risking rage. Systems can still be optimized but the delay and the incompleteness of the information where your skill is challenged such that you're mainly figuring out context of that information; as long as this avoids pointless blackbox information hiding I think this is fair to a wide variety of skill levels and potentially makes the game less about macro level clicks per minute.
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Jun 18, 2021 01:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:Victoria 3 feels as a game goes, one of the few paradox titles where war isn't a huge enough central focus that maybe a version of the above can be tested without risking rage. This is not the game to try this sort of thing in. And I don't really think Paradox wants to make this kind of game, nor should they.
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Jun 18, 2021 01:44
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Yeah this kind of system seems only useful in like HOI. I’m not sure what it adds to any other title
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Jun 18, 2021 01:47
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Wiz posted:Populists starts to build a Motion Order Change Make sure to add a lobby to this game Wiz. Please 
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Jun 18, 2021 01:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah this kind of system seems only useful in like HOI. Which system, I didn't talk about a single specific thing but a couple of different things that relate to each other. If you mean a delayed fog of war for armies; that is easily agnostic to any time period. If you mean the information of things that are nominally real time (like RGO output and tax collection) being on a delay I suppose that is also game agnostic as well being only useful in Hoi doesn't make a lot of sense with the way radio works and other ways of relaying information in the 20th century. For Victoria 3, I was mentioning off hand as well that maybe its the one game where you can risk limiting direct control of army/navy units as a function of distance. The further away they are from the capital and modified by tech the slower units respond. On battlefields nearby to you like between Germany and France its almost instant; but your battlefleets might take anywhere to a few weeks if not months to change what they're doing before the telegraph/radio. This is where a revamped CK like character system can be handy; the kind of person you have assigned leading the fleet becomes a LOT more important if it heavily dictates how they respond in the field. A loose cannon admiral might start an international incident that costs you prestige to resolve peacefully, etc.
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Jun 18, 2021 02:05
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All of it, none of it compliments what Victoria is trying to accomplish nor does any of it push that focus forward. I’m fact it’s seems completely pointless to Vicky. It would be like adding a complex trading to CK3 without republics.
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Jun 18, 2021 02:08
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CharlestheHammer posted:All of it, none of it compliments what Victoria is trying to accomplish nor does any of it push that focus forward. I'm not sure how or why you've come to this conclusion; just asserting something doesn't make it so. It compliments the fact that Empire's existing in a framework of far away possessions that are often self-governing/administrating and that these things can do things that aren't exactly what you want; adding a scaleable challenge to the size of your empire. And it's again also like I'm not even sure what you're responding to when I say different things throughout the post. Can you clarify as to how you feel a mechanic being added to the game would constitute in your mind pushing forward the design vs taking it back? Because it's impossible to discuss with you when you're this vague. I think it would add a challenge to the game that is cognizant to the real challenges in the broad strokes world leaders during the time period had; in having to deal with a timelag on getting information, necessitating the use of skilled envoys to implement their objectives; which sometimes can go rogue. Consider again the Imperial mission to China to try to negotiate opening trade and the follow up interactions by Britain leading up to the Opium Wars where both sides of the conflict were operating behind the agency and initiative of their envoys. Additionally it helps the unrecognized nations be more competitive in their own backyards and adds an element of challenge and uncertainty to imperial adventures i.e Russia sending its fleet around the world only to be annihilated. The Crimean fort at Sevastopol during the Crimean war holding out for an absurdly long time because of the particular skills of the local commanders while communications and logistics were poor because of a lack of railroads south of Moscow during this time period; etc. It would help emphasize the importance of technological developments and how they impact the world's rapidly shrinking size during this period.
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Jun 18, 2021 02:36
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Mans posted:Just...don't play ironman? VostokProgram posted:But muh achievement It's not for achievements, i used to always savescum something or another so ironman was a really nice way to force myself to just play the game. I've gotten used to it.
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Jun 18, 2021 02:43
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All your suggestions literally only really matter to war which has already been said is not the focus and will not be the focus. The focus of this game is internal politics more than anything. This isn’t even me inferring this is exactly what has been said before. Hell I would like it if one time you made your many many suggestions you once explained how it would help the game outside of vague immersion
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Jun 18, 2021 02:44
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Friend Commuter posted:Hey there, if-I-don't-play-perfectly-everything-will-collapse-around-my-ears buddy It's genuinely delightful to know I'm not alone on this
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Jun 18, 2021 03:10
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CharlestheHammer posted:All your suggestions literally only really matter to war which has already been said is not the focus and will not be the focus. The focus of this game is internal politics more than anything. "Not the focus" doesn't mean don't give any thought whatsoever to experimenting with the formula; or that it isn't in the game at all; or won't be the focus of some future hypothetical DLC; or that players won't use it when given the means and opportunity. War is very clearly going to be in the game as there were like a dozen conflicts during the period and it would be silly not to represent it. Your argument is a little strange as it seems to be based on what you perceive to be the authorial intent when people largely just want to brainstorm mechanics they think would be cool or interesting. What the developers say should inform the discussion but we're just a thread on the internet and it probably shouldn't limit our discussion. Especially when there's a lot of implied interpretation happening in your post. quote:This isn’t even me inferring this is exactly what has been said before. What you should be doing is outlining what that sentence actually means to you personally and without referring to the design intentions of the developers. What does it mean to you for a mechanic to help the game, and why does immersion not count? Isn't engagement the whole point of fun from Dwarf Fortress? Isn't immersion of being a dinosaur why The Isle is doing somewhat well? What is the design philosophy you are operating under that "What about adding delays so players work with imperfect information to better model the period" in a game about economic models of the period doesn't suffice?
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Jun 18, 2021 03:19
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Frionnel posted:It's not for achievements, i used to always savescum something or another so ironman was a really nice way to force myself to just play the game. I've gotten used to it. Same, I used to savescum to the point where it got unfun for me, I use Ironman mode basically always now unless I'm testing something quickly. It also helps you learn how to play in dire circumstances, I remember reaching -99% warscore in a battle in EU4 and ending up pushing back to win the whole thing. You end up getting better naturally. Raenir Salazar posted:words words words words words If you really want to try something like this, Imperator: Rome has a bunch of situations like this where the loyalty of your generals and the people in your government have a large impact on how well you are able to control your nation and your army. But all the specific things that you mention in one game would be incredibly unfun, and I don't believe that even you would enjoy playing it.
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Jun 18, 2021 05:25
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trapped mouse posted:If you really want to try something like this, Imperator: Rome has a bunch of situations like this where the loyalty of your generals and the people in your government have a large impact on how well you are able to control your nation and your army. But all the specific things that you mention in one game would be incredibly unfun, and I don't believe that even you would enjoy playing it. To be clear I am not looking for recommendations, but anyways I'm not sure how well your point works when you agree it seemed to work in Imperator Rome. Additionally I'm not sure how it can be unfun for information to be on a delay or have some variance baked in; especially when there are other games, and in fact other paradox titles that make use of some of the things I'm suggesting. Additionally I mean, ultimately fun is subjective and what might be unfun for 1 person might be fun for five others. A lot of people seemed to think Dark Souls 2 was unfun but hbomberguy made a 2 and a half hour video about how all those people are wrong and I think he's right because he makes convincing rational arguments about how the mechanics of DS2 do interesting things and in the vein of those sorts of videos is how I'm approaching this topic. Like whether or not it sounds fun or not fun doesn't do much for either of us, there's zero risk that anything I suggest might actually make it in, so you don't need to worry about whether something is going to be fun or not for you because no one is going to take away your experience with the game that hasn't come out yet; I just think you and the couple of others who make these sorts of arguments are doing themselves a disservice and are not actually getting into the weeds about why they think the idea wouldn't work or wouldn't be fun and to critically analyze whether it might not be fun for them but fun for others and to just think about and discuss interesting mechanics for the fun of it not caring about whether it will actually happen.
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Jun 18, 2021 05:56
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Lawman 0 posted:Make sure to add a lobby to this game Wiz.
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Jun 18, 2021 06:18
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Which games didn't have a lobby?
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Jun 18, 2021 06:40
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Lawman 0 posted:Make sure to add in-game chat to this game Wiz.
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Jun 18, 2021 09:15
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Raenir Salazar posted:Which games didn't have a lobby? I guess Imperator doesn't have a multiplayer lobby, the host just loads the game and then opens it up for others to join. I didn't know this was a thing people cared about, it seems to work ok?
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Jun 18, 2021 09:18
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Not having a lobby is really loving bad for doing multi-session multiplayer.
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Jun 18, 2021 10:54
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Most of these ''thematic" limitations just kind of end up slowing the whole game down a bunch and making it more random. I kinda think someone should at some point give the 'immersion' gamers what they want and make a paradox game where instead of having a nice UI and map you have to first person navigate several ministries and go through dialogue trees to find out basic statistics about a region, then run over to the chancellery to order railroad construction. I can't imagine that ever being remotely fun to play out, but people really like to hear about bizarre concepts. It's like that one developer that's trying to make a ww2 tactical game where the entire game is dialogue trees. People just hear about it and go gaga over it because they think "finally, a ww2 tactical game i can play, one in which theres really not much tactical maneuvering at all"
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Jun 18, 2021 11:11
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