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RIP Thorin, you sucked to the end and were buried in a place you ruled for a week with two pieces of treasure you didn't possess for most of the story. Thanks for getting only your Nephews killed.
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Jun 18, 2021 05:36
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skasion posted:Saruman’s plans in the Shire are economic not military. He doesn’t send an army there, he just gives a bunch (couple hundred) of people jobs. i never really understood saruman's plan for the shire. totally discounting the fellowship hobbits returning, because of course he wouldn't feel threatened by that, is he just aiming to be a tobacco baron and really hoping that aragorn doesn't go poking around in arnor once he becomes king?
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Jun 18, 2021 05:53
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He gets interested in the shire because Gandalf is always there and he supsects Gandalf keeps secrets from him. Which he does. At the end he is, i think, just petty and spiteful.
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Jun 18, 2021 10:32
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On one hand, Gandalf shows up in the shire like once every 20-50 years and lets his reputation carry him. On the other hand to immortal manifestations of celestial beings thats probably a smothering pace and Elrond is like "Gandalf, I'm sick of you crashing on my couch isn't it time you got a job?"
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Jun 18, 2021 11:36
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I Love Loosies posted:At the end he is, i think, just petty and spiteful.
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Jun 18, 2021 13:33
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Jazerus posted:i never really understood saruman's plan for the shire. totally discounting the fellowship hobbits returning, because of course he wouldn't feel threatened by that, is he just aiming to be a tobacco baron and really hoping that aragorn doesn't go poking around in arnor once he becomes king? Originally he wasn’t planning on anybody becoming king, so yeah, just wanted his little industrial farming op on the side. After he loses everything and goes to the shire personally then he is just being a bastard and taking pleasure in loving the hobbits over, possibly even with the intention of getting them to kill him and invite divine opprobrium. He seems kind of disappointed when Frodo refuses to let him get lynched.
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Jun 18, 2021 13:36
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If Bilbo had hosed up and gotten roasted by Smaug, would that have destroyed the one ring and with that Sauron?
keep punching joe fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jun 18, 2021 |
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Jun 18, 2021 16:26
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keep punching joe posted:If Bilbo has hosed up and gotten roasted by Smaug, would that have destroyed the one ring and with that Sauron? No. Gandalf says he thinks that dragon fire could maybe have destroyed the other rings of power, but not the One.
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Jun 18, 2021 16:31
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Bigger question is would Sauron have been able to challenge Smaug if Smaug possessed the ring? I'm gonna go with "probably" because we don't know how strong Smaug is compared to other dragons of the First Age and since dragons are artificial creations it's questionable whether any but the greatest like Glaurrung or Ancalagon could challenge a Maiar.
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Jun 18, 2021 16:35
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Hmm seems like this Tolkien dude really thought things through.
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Jun 18, 2021 16:38
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skasion posted:No. Gandalf says he thinks that dragon fire could maybe have destroyed the other rings of power, but not the One. There is no think, the dwarves lost 4/7 rings gifted to them to Dragon's fire. Unclear if a chronic Dwarf issue or if everybody except the Oakenshields pissed off one extremely motivated Dragon. Arcsquad12 posted:Bigger question is would Sauron have been able to challenge Smaug if Smaug possessed the ring? I'm gonna go with "probably" because we don't know how strong Smaug is compared to other dragons of the First Age and since dragons are artificial creations it's questionable whether any but the greatest like Glaurrung or Ancalagon could challenge a Maiar. I know what the one ring does gets loosey goosey but I would assume if a Dragon can wield the one ring it would at best experience it the way that dwarves did by making it enjoy being a stupid rear end in a top hat more than it already does until its passing out on piles of gold in a random town square. The Robert Downey Jr. of Dragons
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Jun 18, 2021 18:06
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The One Ring I think probably works a bit differently from the lesser rings that the dwarves got, but the biggest difference is that it has more of a will of its own, so it might be able to steer the dragon a little closer to Mordor somehow or another and get lost in a place where Sauron could more easily get his hands on it. Assuming it could keep Smaug awake long enough for him to wander. Otherwise he'd be stuck trying to get the Ring Wraiths to attack Smaug.
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Jun 19, 2021 04:53
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Sauron is not above pretending to be a loyal servant to worm his way closer to someone he wants to undermine.
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Jun 19, 2021 04:55
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Started my slow read of Lord of the Rings "My Dearest Sackville-Bagginses, Get rekt. Truly, Bilbo Baggins"
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Jun 19, 2021 05:27
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the more fun question is what if the Balrog got its hands on the Ring
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Jun 19, 2021 05:49
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Would the ring give a Balrog the ability to fly.
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Jun 19, 2021 05:49
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idk why all the maiar couldn’t fly, seems like something they’d be able to do. maybe once they commit to a corporeal body full time they lose that ability
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Jun 19, 2021 05:51
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Arcsquad12 posted:Would the ring give a Balrog the ability to fly. 
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Jun 19, 2021 05:51
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Cease to Hope posted:Sauron is not above pretending to be a loyal servant to worm his way closer to someone he wants to undermine. How mobile is he after dying and partially resurrecting? I never heard of him leaving his tower. Seems like if he could just go wherever it'd be more thematic for him to be physically leading his armies and more directly distracted when the heroes attack the black gate. And I doubt the Ring Wraiths or some orcs could really manage the whole Lucifer routine by proxy. Maybe they could chuck a palantir into his lair?
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Jun 19, 2021 06:33
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SlothfulCobra posted:Seems like if he could just go wherever it'd be more thematic for him to be physically leading his armies and more directly distracted when the heroes attack the black gate. This is one of those times where themes overcame in-universe thinking: specifically, Sauron's obvious allegorical role, the elevation of humility and kindness over all other virtues, and the need to put the end of the story at the end of the book. As for allegory, Sauron doesn't show up at the battle at the Black Gate because he's Satan. Satan doesn't show up in red pajamas to menace people, but rather works through the corrupt hearts of men. It's why Sauron exists chiefly as an influence rather than an actor, why the entire story is about confronting his servants, and why his power can never be used for good. Sauron is the medievalist's idea of Satan, so Aragorn corrupts the servants of Satan, not Satan himself. If Sauron is at the Black Gate, then he's a foe that must be overcome with courage or wit. Aragorn is a hero but he's not the sort of hero Tolkien wants to exalt. The Ring is the will to power, so transforming Aragorn's confrontation from a battle to defeat Sauron to an inevitably doomed holding action, it shows that valor and courage have a place but are not the greatest virtues. The greatest virtues, the ones that are actually triumphant, are Frodo's and Sam's. Frodo and Sam are meek and self-critical and humble and kind and loyal to each other, and those virtues ultimately defeat Sauron. For them to defeat Sauron, then it deprives them of their weight to have the ultimate confrontation go to Aragorn, especially if the story places their victory after Aragorn's. It would certainly be possible to restructure the story for the climax to come at Black Gate, but either way it makes things into Aragorn's victory rather than Frodo's and Sam's. This isn't to say that the climax is perfect, but the ways it's imperfect shows how important it was that the emphasis land on the victory of Frodo and Sam rather than Aragorn. Anyway as for the main point about the Smaug fanfiction, what exactly Sauron is in the Third Age is pretty vague, and the Second Age is several separate overlapping stories written at different times by one and a half authors. One of those Second Age stories is Sauron submitting to the Numenoreans, only to form what is basically a Satanist cult under their nose, so that Eru Iluvatar sinks Numenor beneath the waves. It's one of a couple times that Sauron loses his body and becomes a spirit, well before Elendil's and Gil-Galad's pyrrhic victory. Sauron takes some sort of form after that, the Necromancer, but that's a retcon Tolkien never got around to filling in with any greater detail. Could Sauron-as-the-Necromancer worm his way into the service of Smaug-with-the-Ring? No reason you couldn't write that story. Sauron had done it before.
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Jun 19, 2021 07:18
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If you don't read the Hobbit before Fellowship this opening is more confusing than it needs to be regarding Gandalf. Hobbit lands are way more sprawling/developed than I think films and other adaptations give credit for, even ignoring the goddamn clock in the hobbit.
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Jun 19, 2021 18:08
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Sauron wouldn’t have shown up at the Black Gate either way cause he’s a little bitch just like Morgoth was by the start of the Great Journey, he’s not trying to throw hands unless he absolutely has to
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Jun 20, 2021 00:56
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That's character assassination of Morgoth. He was ready to have words up until my man Fingolfin came for him.
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Jun 20, 2021 01:04
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indigi posted:Sauron wouldn’t have shown up at the Black Gate either way cause he’s a little bitch just like Morgoth was by the start of the Great Journey, he’s not trying to throw hands unless he absolutely has to Isn't that kind of the thing? The battle he had his fingers chopped off was the one he showed up personally for.
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Jun 20, 2021 01:04
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Zesty posted:Isn't that kind of the thing? The battle he had his fingers chopped off was the one he showed up personally for. he only showed up then cause they were knocking on his front door for seven years
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Jun 20, 2021 01:34
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<clinks the narsil on his finger grieves> Sauron, come out to plaaaAAaaaay
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Jun 20, 2021 02:25
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Barudak posted:<clinks the narsil on his finger grieves> Sauron, come out to plaaaAAaaaay The Lord of the Rings but it all takes place on one night in 1970s New York
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Jun 20, 2021 02:55
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:That's character assassination of Morgoth. He was ready to have words up until my man Fingolfin came for him. fingolfin wounds him and then he gets owned by a bird. and then a half-maiar girl (who had given up on her immortality for her lover boy) who knows how broken sleep is shows up and owns him and his whole court with it. then lover boy steals a loving simil and kills his best werewolf. it was a pretty low time in his life but to be fair he rallies and does some great villainy for awhile after that
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Jun 20, 2021 07:33
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<morgoth, crashing on the ungoliants couch> This has not been my age
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Jun 20, 2021 07:37
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It's a good thing Morgoth and Ungoliant took the Helcaraxë rather than sailing. That would have been an awkward boat ride.
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Jun 20, 2021 07:40
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Arcsquad12 posted:It's a good thing Morgoth and Ungoliant took the Helcaraxë rather than sailing. That would have been an awkward boat ride. It was probably a pretty awkward hike, too.
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Jun 20, 2021 09:47
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Zesty posted:Isn't that kind of the thing? The battle he had his fingers chopped off was the one he showed up personally for. it just occurred to me that saruman's symbol being a white hand was a bit of a flex
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Jun 20, 2021 10:04
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Between Belgium in Hitchikers guide and Gross in Lord of the Rings, British fantasy authors love words that aren't filthy being treated as such. Its also gonna be super weird when the Hobbit falls into public domain in the next decade but the rest of the material is 20 years away.
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Jun 20, 2021 13:13
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Being able to make a hobbit film but only using material actually from The Hobbit might be an improvement frankly.
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Jun 20, 2021 14:10
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Unkempt posted:Being able to make a hobbit film but only using material actually from The Hobbit might be an improvement frankly. I think you will find that the Hobbit mentions the Fall of Gondolin, therefore it will start with a full retelling of the Silmarillion.
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Jun 20, 2021 14:28
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Well its weirder since in 2033, you'd be able to do the original version of the Hobbit, but you'd have to wait until 2047 to do the second edition which includes the more tied to the one ring version most people have read. 6 years later, 2053, you'd be able to do Fellowship and by the next year you could finish the rest of Lord of the Rings. Then there is another 20 year wait to touch literally anything in the Silmarillion. Edit: In fact by the time you can touch the Silmarillion, you could just start doing Star Wars
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Jun 20, 2021 15:11
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Barudak posted:Edit: In fact by the time you can touch the Silmarillion, you could just start doing Star Wars why not both
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Jun 20, 2021 16:10
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Ghost Leviathan posted:why not both it seems unlike that either will ever happen without some major change
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Jun 20, 2021 16:12
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I mean, at once
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Jun 20, 2021 16:33
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You could probably make a good movie about the Return of the King epilogue in the Shire. Less than three hours even. The biggest problem in the Hobbit movies was probably how much they wanted to make it into the same kind of movies as the Lord of the Rings trilogy, so they couldn't let the Hobbit stuff stand on its own, and that's the big reason that they had to make the Battle of Five Armies into its own movie to get all those battle scenes, when the original plan was just two movies, and that wrecked all the pacing and required that the other movies pad things out further to justify themselves. And apparently that was the studios' idea more than Peter Jackson's. Well, that and the labor law reform to screw New Zealand.
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Jun 20, 2021 17:19
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