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You should probably read a more nuanced history of the war tbh. The generals in WWI were constantly innovating and switching tactics to try and break the stalemate on the Western Front
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Jun 19, 2021 21:02
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Gaius Marius posted:You should probably read a more nuanced history of the war tbh. The generals in WWI were constantly innovating and switching tactics to try and break the stalemate on the Western Front Yeah there's a huge amount of interesting things happening in the West, like Bite and Hold and other tactical changes over the course of the war; but in terms of what can be abstracted and represented in game at the level the map is operating on; in terms of how armies were moved and handled its hard to show something that granular.
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Jun 19, 2021 21:08
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fuf posted:We know the game has a lot of teeny tiny provinces, and we also know that pop / production / buildings all happen at the state level, so presumably those provinces are there in large part to be used by the military system? Talking the actual movement of armies at the front lines here, not mass mobilization and the like. Tie mobilization and front lines together, and you should have something that works pretty well. I don't actually recall ping pong being a big problem in Vicky II, the morale of armies seemed to be high enough that you got to grind armies into paste rather than EU4-style chases. Especially late game.
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Jun 19, 2021 21:16
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What do we mean by 20th Century wars? How should they differ from earlier wars, aside from trench warfare where that makes sense? Something that works really well in Victoria II, except for the fact that the huge provinces of Eastern Europe allows for it - and which Victoria III seems to be aiming to solve. IIRC its a lesser form of ping ponging, especially against the AI. The AI will sneak little armies behind the lines and just quickly snatch up a lot of land, which unemploys the rgo's in a system that is kinda clever in representing war refugees and the like but is also kinda annoying because it mainly just annoys the human who has trouble multitasking while the AI can use 100 little stacks no problem but doesn't change how the war ends and just serves to drag out wars in the early game. In Victoria 2 what tends to happen is armies get absolutely bodied even early game so ping ponging is vastly less of an occurrence because the armies once trashed are basically combat ineffective for the remainder of the war; except for the AI which doesn't care and keeps using them. The point of mobilization was that due to timetables, war planes drawn up by the general staff, the telegraph and train schedules is you could raise millions of pre trained troops to board trains, deploy at the rallying points and be marching on the enemy in a matter of weeks; and the faster you did this the more likely you could defeat the enemy before their armies could be mobilized. In EU4 and Victoria 2, everyone had unnaturally large standing armies; mobilization just juiced your numbers with a lot more bodies, often with troops whose quality was much less but could hold land and boots you have is always better than boots you don't. I think it would help make things better if the armies you gradually built up as your standing army maybe operated in rules of thirds. Only 1/3 is ever actually able to be fielded but are the equivalent of being "mothballed"; for dealing with rebels you don't need to call up the whole army, maybe just augment an existing army and call up just the regional army; but for a real war you click the button and gradually additionally stacks show up next to the conscription centers (which should be state level not provincial level buildings in EU). In Victoria 2, the speed at which this happens increases as you get railroads and better communication and the more effective it is; the number of people on the muster rolls isn't what you actually get fielded until your bureaucracy is better able to accurately tally the information and systems exist in place to insure reliability. And more importantly around mid game with the right tech and reforms do you get the ability to have planning and a more automated process to gather troops and enact war plans similar to Hoi4.
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Jun 19, 2021 21:33
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“A Comet is sighted!” [ Capitalism, Ho! ]
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Jun 19, 2021 21:34
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VostokProgram posted:Dumping armies into an abstract front and hoping you win the war sounds boring as gently caress and I hope paradox ignores all such suggestions You're right, it's much more exciting to dump your men into an abstract front line and hope that you win the battle.
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Jun 19, 2021 22:00
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Gaius Marius posted:You should probably read a more nuanced history of the war tbh. The generals in WWI were constantly innovating and switching tactics to try and break the stalemate on the Western Front This one is boring enough for a lifetime to be honest.
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Jun 19, 2021 22:07
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CharlestheHammer posted:I wouldn’t worry it will probably play like all paradox games save HOI I'm hoping it plays like HOI though...
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Jun 19, 2021 22:59
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Jackie D posted:I'm hoping it plays like HOI though... Oh Rip
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Jun 19, 2021 23:02
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I feel like the army controls will have to be HOI-ish at least, if the pronvices are as small as reported
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Jun 19, 2021 23:22
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VostokProgram posted:Dumping armies into an abstract front and hoping you win the war sounds boring as gently caress and I hope paradox ignores all such suggestions  So much of Paradox games is clicking on units to move them around. If I hated doing that, then I wouldn't enjoy playing Paradox games. I enjoy playing Paradox games.
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Jun 20, 2021 00:33
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Gaius Marius posted:You should probably read a more nuanced history of the war tbh. The generals in WWI were constantly innovating and switching tactics to try and break the stalemate on the Western Front Guns of August is a book about August 1914. Joffre was being Joffre throughout the entire month. VostokProgram posted:Dumping armies into an abstract front and hoping you win the war sounds boring as gently caress and I hope paradox ignores all such suggestions Manually controling every single unit late game in Victoria and having to handle the terrible mobilization mechanic was pure and simply a terrible thing. I hope late game Victoria has a model closer to HOI and that supplies actually matter.
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Jun 20, 2021 02:29
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trapped mouse posted:
A lot of people might not hate it but they clearly don't particularly enjoy it or there wouldn't be so much love for poo poo like vassal swarms.
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Jun 20, 2021 03:10
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reignonyourparade posted:A lot of people might not hate it but they clearly don't particularly enjoy it or there wouldn't be so much love for poo poo like vassal swarms. I loving love vassal swarms if I'm controlling them; especially early game its like you hacked the game because its just a massive deathball of free troops and there's basically no way of dealing with them. The cost to using them (maintaining a lot of diplo slots and needing high relations and restraining your own expansion) is pretty fair too. I imagine it might suck to be on the receiving in, but too many players honestly just like banning strategies that involve having to interact with the AI and doing anything other than eating the AI is something too many players just eschew.
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Jun 20, 2021 03:20
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reignonyourparade posted:A lot of people might not hate it but they clearly don't particularly enjoy it or there wouldn't be so much love for poo poo like vassal swarms. Vassal swarms are literally free manpower that can utterly abuse the AI so probably not a great example
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Jun 20, 2021 03:53
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It's not hard to force a pitched battle in CK2/3 or EU4. You wait for the PC to plan a move, move into the path, force them to move somewhere else, then intercept them once they've committed to moving to a province adjacent to you. This is not a challenge. It does not require a lot of thought, and other than occasionally forcing the AI into an (often-difficult-to-see) slower path to catch them, there's little game here. What it does involve is many, many fiddly-rear end, RSI-inducing clicks. It's something you could easily program an AI to do for you, as evinced by the fact that the AI can do this just fine. If I could just tell an army "intercept this army as best you can, notify me if you lose track of them," then I'd just do that. There's just no game to that, either. So a lot of the ideas about how to delegate army command are the latter design where you just tell the army to go intercept this enemy army, but somehow incorporating a game into it. Because, right now, the ping-pong army movement is a lot of effort for very few actual decisions.
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Jun 20, 2021 04:40
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Cease to Hope posted:Because, right now, the ping-pong army movement is a lot of effort for very few actual decisions.
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Jun 20, 2021 14:18
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I mean any system they implement will have an optimal choice. Unless it’s just like random I guess?
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Jun 20, 2021 14:39
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean any system they implement will have an optimal choice. Unless it’s just like random I guess?
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Jun 20, 2021 14:47
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I mean I will take your word for it as I’ve never really experienced this
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Jun 20, 2021 14:55
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Cease to Hope posted:If I could just tell an army "intercept this army as best you can, notify me if you lose track of them," then I'd just do that. I've wanted this ever since they added the buttons to hunt down rebels in EU4. And the option to mothball specific armies.
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Jun 20, 2021 15:11
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean I will take your word for it as I’ve never really experienced this
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Jun 20, 2021 16:22
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Call me crazy, but I think that a grand strategy game, especially one that focuses on internal politics and economy, shouldn't require you to manually control every single army you have all across the world.
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Jun 20, 2021 16:52
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Fister Roboto posted:Call me crazy, but I think that a grand strategy game, especially one that focuses on internal politics and economy, shouldn't require you to manually control every single army you have all across the world. You're crazy.
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Jun 20, 2021 16:53
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The fact that Britain has a massive empire that spans continents in the Vicky era has always, always turned me off from wanting to play as them, precisely because of the army / navy management thing. I just can't wrap my head around all of that, especially having to deal with wars as Britain.
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Jun 20, 2021 17:21
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theyre not gonna remove britains world empire from a british world empire game
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Jun 20, 2021 17:22
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It would be nice if the Admiralty could just handle patrolling it though instead of requiring the Prime Minister to personally micro the deployment of the East Indies Squadron
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Jun 20, 2021 17:27
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Abstract fronts rather than individual provinces would be 100% the correct move from both a simulation and a gameplay perspective but would upset the multiplayer, achievements-seeking youtubers that modern paradox tries to cultivate so it ain’t gonna happen. Instead you get to enjoy the fun of moving the 2nd division (which has existed at full reinforcement with an artillery attachment for the past 100 years) from Rome to your new holdings in Italian New Guinea.
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Jun 20, 2021 17:40
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bob dobbs is dead posted:theyre not gonna remove britains world empire from a british world empire game Well sure, but I'm still not gonna play as Britain if I have to micro every squad of colonial soldiers across Africa and Asia.
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Jun 20, 2021 17:41
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Goons and MLG YouTubers need to be able to make tedious army movements so that they can bait the bad AI into being encircled and then pretend they're geniuses.
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Jun 20, 2021 17:43
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Mans posted:Goons and MLG YouTubers need to be able to make tedious army movements so that they can bait the bad AI into being encircled and then pretend they're geniuses. "this is meaningful interaction, to me,,"
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Jun 20, 2021 17:58
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The problem with the army micro is the way its just so unscalable and there's this massive accumulated delay, especially as a larger empire to react to things; first you got to pick some armies to move, then you probably need to raise some new regiments; and in Vicky 2 where and who you recruit matters because those pops making up those regiments might rebel if you're not paying attention; which you won't because that's an absurd amount of micro. You can't ever keep your armies in nice 15 or 30 or 45 or 60 regiment stacks because of invisible rebels that drain yours stacks so there's just a continuous amount of micro to organize your armies. The thing is this is the era in which nations had organizations like a General Staff, or Ministry of Defence, or Admiralty Board whose jobs it were to do all of this tedium. I think something like Hoi4's planning manager would be helpful if revamped and rethought out; but with extra, borrowing from how in Hoi3 you could click a button and let a theater recruit troops for you if they felt they needed more and automatically manage them for you. I think something like this could be a huge help to the player for large empires. Setup a theatre for say, India. It tells you how many troops it thinks it needs to keep down rebels, and to defend the borders from attacks from possible adversaries based on intel (which is fuzzy, so it might request more or less than necessasary based on intel). If able you can say it can recruit from the locals; or rather assign to it a "node" of whichever part of the empire you want recruits manning it; or manually assign armies which adjust the AI's calculations. It's normal for a UK player to maybe have 1 British army or 2 there as a solid core, while then recruiting mostly from the locals. With maybe special troops like Gurkha's being separate so you don't lose track of them and can keep them in one stack to organize yourself or automatically set to distribute to armies elsewhere, as you might prefer them to fight in European or other foreign wars. A garrison posture or rebel hunting posture has the armies occupying the cities while patroling the country side (which SHOULD be a thing. Instead of having in a province to lower revolt risk, or only moving when rebels appear, have it so that the more armies move around the more effective it is at rebel suppression as it sweeps through the countryside finding rebel cells to break up). You can set this theatre AI to have fronts which you can pre-define; and queue up "if this than that" orders that get automatically executed. So in the case of war with Russia, the troops will move their best armies to occupy the border with Afghanistan and Iran, even do limited attacks if able, without you having to actually move a single stack or organize your stacks yourself. Even better is if you can setup templates, like 3 British regiments per 7 Indian regiments. Setup ratios like 3-Infantry-1-Cavalry-2 Artillery even better if you can just see a clean box with all your armies lined up in rows to click them one at a time to assign templates and setup categories. Colonial occupation troops are probably mostly infantry; Line Armies want artillery; scout armies want dragoons and cavalry and hussars for whatever use they have. So you can have a theatre and a number of front pre assigned to say, Canada. Which has like 1 army there already, but if there's a war with the US in some alt history scenario you expect the Ministry of Defence (which maybe you can assign a leader to which benefits recruitment times, starting experience, leader generation etc). To take the reserved/reserve armies to start shipping them overseas on available transports automatically and moving them into position; but also setup that in the event of war with big enough nations automatically start forming new armies, automatically assigning them to the theatre adjacent to who you're at war with. For theaters in vulnerable places you don't want troops to go to just click a button to turn it off. You can then even make Hypothetical theatres as basically war plans. In the event of War with Russia, Recruit X Amount of Armies, Land troops next to Sevastopol; form new front here, and take all provinces until front is formed and then wait for new orders. You could still manually intervene and control individual armies, and quickly unassign them (but they might lose front bonuses to discourage micro) to handle something the AI is having trouble with. But this largely solves like 90% of the tedium of army management in a game that isn't likely to have serious fighting with other players or majors until late game and by then it basically has turned into Hearts of Iron anyways.
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Jun 20, 2021 18:28
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I probably agree but there’s no way I’m reading all that, sorry.
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Jun 20, 2021 19:17
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bob dobbs is dead posted:theyre not gonna remove britains world empire from a british world empire game We are however turning most of it into subjects (this is a thing we're doing in general with a lot of established colonies), which is one of the things that makes Britain a lot more manageable to play in V3 vs V2.
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Jun 20, 2021 19:31
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ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:I probably agree but there’s no way I’m reading all that, sorry. We'll never be able to promote enough capitalists now! We need more clerks! 
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Jun 20, 2021 19:41
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Wiz posted:We are however turning most of it into subjects (this is a thing we're doing in general with a lot of established colonies), which is one of the things that makes Britain a lot more manageable to play in V3 vs V2. Interesting. I know that this is probably not something that can be fully divulged at this time, but does this mean that there would be several different "colonies" at game start in both Australia and Canada that would eventually unite as one dominion, like in history? Or would those areas start off united but still as subjects, not directly ruled? Also, I'm assuming that means the East India Company starts off as self-ruled even though it is owned by Britain, but it also ended up being essentially annexed later on. Will it remain a subject throughout the game?
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Jun 20, 2021 19:43
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Prince Edward Island WC speedrun (any % core)
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Jun 20, 2021 20:08
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Wiz posted:We are however turning most of it into subjects (this is a thing we're doing in general with a lot of established colonies), which is one of the things that makes Britain a lot more manageable to play in V3 vs V2. Oh that's nice! Will there be some kind of "subject management" like there is in EU4, where you can loosely order your subjects to do various things during war?
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Jun 20, 2021 22:14
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Can we confirm WASD map controls?
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Jun 21, 2021 00:40
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Wiz posted:We are however turning most of it into subjects (this is a thing we're doing in general with a lot of established colonies), which is one of the things that makes Britain a lot more manageable to play in V3 vs V2. Please dear god give me a "Assume direct Control of subject armies" ability. I don't care if it costs Dosh, Prestige, or some new resource. I cannot stand watching my subs do dumb poo poo when I'm at war
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Jun 21, 2021 00:42
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