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I really don’t “get” wsl2. how is it not just a headless linux vm with a simplified installer (who cares, it’s a one off thing) and slightly faster boot time (also who cares, how often are you all rebooting that you even notice). people act like it’s some kind of magic but I just can’t see what the fuss is about.
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Jul 8, 2021 18:16
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Soricidus posted:I really don’t “get” wsl2. how is it not just a headless linux vm with a simplified installer (who cares, it’s a one off thing) and slightly faster boot time (also who cares, how often are you all rebooting that you even notice). people act like it’s some kind of magic but I just can’t see what the fuss is about. you should try asking the people acting like it is magic imo
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Jul 8, 2021 18:28
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the draw of it is that it can just natively mount your ntfs partitions. for all other linux on the desktop uses you should just run a headless vm and ssh into it, which you can do on windows now because it's not 2004 and windows has ssh and sshd built in now also install windows terminal, it's fucken great
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Jul 8, 2021 18:34
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Soricidus posted:I really don’t “get” wsl2. how is it not just a headless linux vm with a simplified installer (who cares, it’s a one off thing) and slightly faster boot time (also who cares, how often are you all rebooting that you even notice). people act like it’s some kind of magic but I just can’t see what the fuss is about. 2) It does actually have gui stuff (in insider releases at least) which appears to be pretty cool and magical. 3) You can also apparently now run CUDA stuff in it using your host GPU without any passthrough stuff.
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Jul 8, 2021 18:37
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Kazinsal posted:also install windows terminal, it's fucken great Gooder than putty?
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Jul 8, 2021 18:37
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Schadenboner posted:Gooder than putty? only thing that putty does that it doesn't is serial connections but you can still use plink in windows terminal as a generic console mode putty frontend it also doesn't do pixel perfect bitmap font rendering but if you're trying to emulate a VT220 or whatever for your serial connections you probably want a dedicated piece of gimmick software for that other than that I really like it. supports tabbed terminals, custom keyboard shortcuts, custom new tab profiles so you can have a shortcut that starts an SSH session to a specific box for example, etc
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Jul 8, 2021 18:42
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Kazinsal posted:also install windows terminal, it's fucken great only if "fucken great" is a euphemism for "incredibly slow"
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Jul 8, 2021 18:43
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Kazinsal posted:only thing that putty does that it doesn't is serial connections but you can still use plink in windows terminal as a generic console mode putty frontend Baked-in X11 like Moba?
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Jul 8, 2021 18:45
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The_Franz posted:only if "fucken great" is a euphemism for "incredibly slow" some weirdo on youtube did an hour long video complaining that wt chugs when you shove a gigabyte of plain text through it because the windows console subsystem wasn't meant to process a gig of poo poo through stdout in one unbroken write and that his bespoke console that he wrote to solve that specific problem was 15x faster and all I could think was "if only we could harness your powers to actually fix things that matter" Schadenboner posted:Baked-in X11 like Moba? apparently an X11 server on windows is a Coming Soon (tm) feature in general but if you have one installed and running X11 forwarding should work fine
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Jul 8, 2021 18:48
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Kazinsal posted:some weirdo on youtube did an hour long video complaining that wt chugs when you shove a gigabyte of plain text through it because the windows console subsystem wasn't meant to process a gig of poo poo through stdout in one unbroken write and that his bespoke console that he wrote to solve that specific problem was 15x faster and all I could think was "if only we could harness your powers to actually fix things that matter" yeah, casey muratori has... opinions about things
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Jul 8, 2021 19:03
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Kazinsal posted:apparently an X11 server on windows is a Coming Soon (tm) feature in general but if you have one installed and running X11 forwarding should work fine the new wsl2 stuff is weirder than that, it runs wayland, xwayland, as well as stuff like pulseaudio, inside the vm but containerized away from the os you see in general though, it is not magic, but it has enough small usability niceties that it still ends up kind of a different beast from setting up a vm (a setup i have wasted plenty of my life with as well). the general light weight is pretty important, installing a fresh vm image is fast, starting is fast, and the resource usage is suitably optimized for its purpose. to give examples: filesystem sharing was already mentioned, but in addition to the host fs being on the wsl side you also get the wsl filesystems in explorer (i.e. 'linux' below the 'networks' icon) by default. you can run commands across the boundaries freely, e.g. 'notepad.exe .bashrc' will pop it if you want (and more commonly 'explorer.exe .' is often useful), and for the other direction 'wsl awk ...' in cmd/powershell will run awk on wsl, in that directory etc. to support this windows PATH is propagated to the vm, and you can share environment variables freely by setting the WSLENV environment variable suitably. in really weird integrations (still on insider) gui linux applications also get added to your start menu automatically (assuming they use the freedesktop menu specification), so i have xbill on there.
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Jul 8, 2021 19:08
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The_Franz posted:yeah, casey muratori has... opinions about things i couldn't remember what casey muratori's claim to fame was, but i saw jon blow agreeing with him in twitter replies and that was enough for me
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Jul 8, 2021 19:38
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:the new wsl2 stuff is weirder than that, it runs wayland, xwayland, as well as stuff like pulseaudio, inside the vm but containerized away from the os you see the only thing I really dislike about it is that you need to turn Hyper-V on which locks out HAXM from working so other hypervisor frontends like QEMU and VirtualBox get slowed to a crawl for I/O since they have to run all their calls through the Hyper-V API. if the Hyper-V API were faster or I could run vbox at full speed with it enabled (which sounds like a bizarre requirement but I use it for testing some networking stuff I work on) I probably wouldn't have switched to a somewhat more convoluted Linux VM on ESXi + persistent NFS mount setup
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Jul 8, 2021 19:53
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josh04 posted:i couldn't remember what casey muratori's claim to fame was, but i saw jon blow agreeing with him in twitter replies and that was enough for me he's a really good game dev that is also old school grognard opinionated about stuff so he comes off as annoying but he's also really informative if only he could let go of the grognard stuff, which he sort of did with handmade hero's lessons but not in general i think he's right that a terminal emulator should not be slow, given its some of the oldest general use software in existence
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Jul 8, 2021 20:15
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josh04 posted:i couldn't remember what casey muratori's claim to fame was, but i saw jon blow agreeing with him in twitter replies and that was enough for me i couldn't either and my googlin results said that casey muratori was a dev on the witness, so,
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Jul 8, 2021 20:39
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Kazinsal posted:the only thing I really dislike about it is that you need to turn Hyper-V on which locks out HAXM from working so other hypervisor frontends like QEMU and VirtualBox get slowed to a crawl for I/O since they have to run all their calls through the Hyper-V API. if the Hyper-V API were faster or I could run vbox at full speed with it enabled (which sounds like a bizarre requirement but I use it for testing some networking stuff I work on) I probably wouldn't have switched to a somewhat more convoluted Linux VM on ESXi + persistent NFS mount setup i was just about to ask if it still used hyper-v, so thanks for saving me the time
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Jul 8, 2021 20:43
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infernal machines posted:i was just about to ask if it still used hyper-v, so thanks for saving me the time yeah, kinda sucks too because the Hyper-V API has pretty poor performance. virtualbox's software networking stack is dogshit slow as is -- in my testing, 79% of CPU cycles are spent in the host VM when doing gigabit line rate throughput with multiple virtual switches. once hyper-v comes into the picture it hits about 92% and routing throughput drops to about 250 Mbps because each inter-VM copy has to be proxied through the hyper-v API instead of just being done in virtualbox's own virtual machine monitor this is a pretty specific use case problem admittedly but all I/O is at least slightly impacted by this. it's the inter-VM address space/virtualized hardware instance copies that are really horribly impacted by this.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:49
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i just remember running into a really weird networking issue on my laptop after testing out the first release of WSL that was specifically caused by whatever the gently caress hyper-v does with windows networking completely breaking my wifi driver. it was probably a very rare edge case that's since been resolved, but whatever.
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Jul 8, 2021 21:26
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Soricidus posted:I really don’t “get” wsl2. how is it not just a headless linux vm with a simplified installer (who cares, it’s a one off thing) and slightly faster boot time (also who cares, how often are you all rebooting that you even notice). people act like it’s some kind of magic but I just can’t see what the fuss is about. it's linux on the desktop op
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Jul 8, 2021 21:26
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finally. and all it took was microsoft taking an interest in linux
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Jul 8, 2021 21:27
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Wsl is dog poo poo for anything but coreutils on windows, everything else has a thousand edge cases
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Jul 8, 2021 21:41
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i suspect you might be the one with rather strange usecases if you have run into that many problems
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Jul 8, 2021 21:45
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https://headspring.com/2021/01/07/how-to-run-native-docker-containers-on-wsl-2/ Yes the typical Windows simplicity of 'install a dozen different things and configure them all separately in arcane menus' just so you can connect to the remote daemon in the docker for Windows VM. Running containers, what an edge case! Also this has only worked in preview versions the past year or so, sure hope your IT department keeps you updated.
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Jul 8, 2021 22:10
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you should have said that you were talking about how dumb and convoluted the wsl *setup procedure* is, because *that* very much remains true. as far as the docker bit goes, you are of course free to not do the single step of clicking "enable wsl integration" which then has docker run without it, but i recommend you do take that whole one step as it is often a bit convenient that all containers are collected on a wsl instance dedicated for that purpose.
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Jul 8, 2021 22:14
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Sign into your Docker Account, m'lady? What is your role within your organization? Also might you have any procurement authority by any chance? We'd love to get in touch
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Jul 8, 2021 22:19
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Or you could use Linux on your development machine and the regular docker (better yet podman) cli like a goddamn adult Sadly I am forced to use macos at work
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Jul 8, 2021 22:20
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Sapozhnik posted:Or you could use Linux on your development machine and the regular docker (better yet podman) cli like a goddamn adult or, you know, just run regular docker/podman cli on wsl2. the above thing is if you want the windows docker desktop thing to interact with wsl, just running it on linux directly works in wsl. there though a real caveat with wsl though is that it does not run systemd, so once you get into running a bunch of containers you may be expecting infrastructure that is not included.
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Jul 8, 2021 22:30
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i suspect you might be the one with rather strange usecases if you have run into that many problems well, they use linux, so you kinda figure
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Jul 8, 2021 23:09
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Mr. Crow posted:Wsl is dog poo poo for anything but coreutils on windows, everything else has a thousand edge cases using linux is an edge case
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Jul 8, 2021 23:33
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The only reason Apple doesn't rebase macOS on the Linux kernel at this point is that they openly hold their desktop users in base contempt, as demonstrated by the fact that their latest laptops are just ipads with physical keyboards. Whatever your opinions about the macOS userland might be the kernel loving suuuuuuuuuuuucks
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Jul 9, 2021 01:05
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my M1 air fuckin slaps op not sure what you’re talking about definitely no iPad or Linux laptop that can play world of warcraft for example
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Jul 9, 2021 01:23
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Shaggar posted:using linux is an edge case
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Jul 9, 2021 02:30
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wsl2 is a piece of poo poo and the fact that it even exists shows that you shouldn't use either one. just install linux and be done with it
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Jul 9, 2021 02:53
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giving up on the neat translation layer in favour of a crappy hyper-v vm becuase they couldn't figure out disk i/o is so incredibly lame. god MS are poo poo
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Jul 9, 2021 02:54
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if you have to run both, windows inside linux is better than linux inside windows
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Jul 9, 2021 02:59
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lol no
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Jul 9, 2021 03:00
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Amethyst posted:giving up on the neat translation layer in favour of a crappy hyper-v vm becuase they couldn't figure out disk i/o is so incredibly lame. god MS are poo poo it's not a matter of not knowing how to fix it, it's that they don't want to because the changes needed to make native i/o fast would break all of that preinstalled security-theater crapware that oems get paid a shitload to put on new computers and a multi-billion dollar industry has convinced naive people that they need
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Jul 9, 2021 03:16
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Sapozhnik posted:The only reason Apple doesn't rebase macOS on the Linux kernel at this point is that they openly hold their desktop users in base contempt, as demonstrated by the fact that their latest laptops are just ipads with physical keyboards. this is what linux does to your brain lol you cannot imagine a single problem in the whole world to which the solution is not linux
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Jul 9, 2021 04:33
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I can imagine a world where the macos kernel has native containerization primitives just fine, the problem is that the Macbook product line's annual revenues are not quite as staggeringly large a number as the iPhone product line's so Apple doesn't bother adding this feature.
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Jul 9, 2021 05:06
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someone had to take up nbsd's mantle of ragging on the xnu kernel performance
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Jul 9, 2021 05:11
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