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All depends on the deal, too, right? The Audi dealer were offering me ridiculous deals on e-trons with an incredibly inflated guaranteed final value. I didn't want an e-tron but if I did it would have made financial sense (new car buying being BWM notwithstanding)
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Jul 14, 2021 19:20
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This entire weird conversation is about not wanting to use equity, a term describing a percent or absolute measurement of ownership of an asset, for unrealized contract profits. Equity implies a stake in something and that you're able to exchange the stake; in a lease you don't own the car yet and your contract is not transferrable. You can't use either the car or your contract as collateral for subsequent contracts like home equity or the part of a financed car above water. There was talk earlier in the thread of using a car loan interchangable with cash on hand where you essentially put the car loan into financial markets to beat the interest in a car loan. This is another way to play futures with your car (the thing you need to go to work and keep living). This at least let's you pick and choose the market you want to get into. If your depreciation curves works out right like in the current hellmarket, you could theoretically do it again by financing your car for more stock play money! They'll even let you do this after putting a bumper sticker on your car! This is closer to what equity means about the leveragability of your asset (and your ability to put bumper stickers on). When you are playing the cars future market with a lease, you are locked into the cars futures market because your contract limits you to just playing the cars futures market.
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Jul 14, 2021 21:13
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a vehicle lease is absolutely not an options contract what in the gently caressknox_harrington posted:All depends on the deal, too, right? The Audi dealer were offering me ridiculous deals on e-trons with an incredibly inflated guaranteed final value. I didn't want an e-tron but if I did it would have made financial sense (new car buying being BWM notwithstanding) yes a lot of times there are heavily subsidized lease deals on various cars to make them move - this can either be residual supports, reduced money factor, or both.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:01
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:a vehicle lease is absolutely not an options contract what in the gently caress quote:An options contract is an agreement between two parties to facilitate a potential transaction involving an asset at a preset price and date. There's more to a lease than just the purchase option, but there's definitely an option component.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:10
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yes there is an option as a part of the contract but the primary element of the contract is depreciation financing.KillHour posted:If I buy options in a stock and that stock becomes worth more than my option to exercise costs, I have equity in that stock. I paid a fee to have that flexibility, but it doesn't change the calculus of whether I can make money off of exercising that option. this is... extremely not how options and options valuations work
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Jul 14, 2021 23:32
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The best part about these dead forums is that by this point, I'm pretty sure all the thread regulars knows that leasing and buying can be skewed to favor one or the other, and yet we still argue about it, and will probably still argue about it in 30 years. Well, many of us will. 
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Jul 15, 2021 03:10
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Options are, I guess, automatically exercised when they become in the money? But only in relation to.. cars? I have never been more confused. I can understand financing a car at a low/zero rate and shoving that dollar amount into I-bonds or whatever, but options are next level BWM.
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Jul 15, 2021 04:28
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Motronic posted:So what do you call that? I don't know
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Jul 15, 2021 05:53
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the toyota prius
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Jul 15, 2021 06:08
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Since we're on the financing  topic, what's generally the most BFC way to finance a used toy car?I've been considering an older Cayman for a while now, but unlike my other cars, it's a bit more than what I can find between couch cushions so financing is definitely a consideration. However the car loans here are usually limited to 5 year or newer, and general purpose loans have pretty bad rates. I could just have the cash especially one the bonus comes in, but wouldn't want to pay cash anyway due to opportunity costs. OTOH I've seen that my broker has rates as low as 1.6%, so theoretically buying the car with cash and then financing the stock would be functionally the same, no? Or is there some better way to borrow against existing assets when I don't have Bezos bucks? I'm not in the US so we don't have these credit unions I keep hearing about, but I'd imagine most financial stuff would be similar.
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Jul 15, 2021 12:59
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Where are you? You should be able to get a fairly cheap loan somewhere. What return do you think you'll get over 3 years that makes it a significant opportunity cost? https://www.mygermanfinances.de/german-loans-credits/ Personally while I did finance my daily car I would not finance something that's just a toy. You'll enjoy it more if you bought it outright anyway.
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Jul 15, 2021 13:32
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Motronic posted:Enjoy your new (base model) Toyota Sienna. Update: My wife really wanted the power liftgate so we got the XLE trim. I probably could have asked for a little bit more on the trade in, but at least they didn’t try to lowball us like the previous Toyota dealer we went to. In a moment of weakness I did buy the extended warranty and service plan (discounted, but still). We bought it on my birthday so I asked the finance guy if I could get anything for that. He smiled and bought me a Toyota shirt and hat from the shop!  We totally blew through my original budget but it’s a pretty awesome vehicle. There is so much room inside. Everyone is comfortable. We can carry somewhat large things without having to leave the kids at home. Really easy to drive. I was surprised how tight you could turn given its size, which makes parking easier than I thought it would be. And it gets great gas mileage for a large vehicle too. 30MPG average so far (we’re still on the first tank of gas after about a week). Other notes: We also test drove the Kia Carnival and the Honda Odyssey. The Carnival was top on features but it was not a hybrid. The Odyssey was just boring all around. It didn’t have features of the Carnival or the efficiency of the Sienna.
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Jul 15, 2021 14:55
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nelson posted:Update: You bought an extended warranty on a new Toyota?  please give us what you paid.I'm not trying to pile on, congrats on the ride. Motronic unsurprisingly chose the right model for you.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:03
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Probably don't need to feel too bad there was a dude on the Mach-e forums that paid $5,300 for an extended warranty and $5,000 for a service plan. A service plan. On an EV.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:43
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Inner Light posted:You bought an extended warranty on a new Toyota? It was just under $50k out the door. The warranty and service plan were $3445 of that. I got $21k for the trade in: 2018 Mazda CX-5 with lots of scratches.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:47
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The warranty and service plan are not generally necessary, but I'm not going to give you too hard of a time about buying them. The service plan though is generally a terrible deal. I think most new Toyotas come with free maintenance for the first 2 years/25K miles, so if you bought the 4 year/45K mile on you really only prepaying for at most 4 oil changes. There's no reason to prepay for oil changes, another downside is they only cover the factory recommended oil change interval. If Toyota says you only need an oil change every 10K miles, that's all you're getting out of that program. Also it has to be done at the dealership, which can be inconvenient for many people. Both contracts should give you up to X amount of days to cancel them if you are so inclined. The process should be on the back side of the paperwork you got. Personally I would not have purchased either of those things, but it's your money, and if they help you or your wife sleep better at night, no judgement here. I will recommend cancelling those contracts. The finance guy is going to be pissed because he made a bunch of money off of you, but that's not your problem.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:48
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Yeah, you should go back and have them remove those. Easy to get hung up on in the moment, but if you want an extra $3445 in your pocket, go get it.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:50
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So all of the dealers I've talked to are adding a $1k-$2500 "market adjustment" over MSRP so yeah, I guess we'll just wait a while for things to shake out. Is there an easier way to shop around so I don't have to contact a dozen dealers myself? Like a new car broker that is recommended?
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Jul 15, 2021 16:01
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knox_harrington posted:Where are you? You should be able to get a fairly cheap loan somewhere. What return do you think you'll get over 3 years that makes it a significant opportunity cost? Well this is pretty weird considering how everyone is talking about how borrowing money is almost free now. I'm not really settled on a budget yet, maybe $20-30k, so that could be $8 grand over three years (at 8% return) which isn't an insignificant amount and definitely more than the deprecation on the car would be. Minus the cost of the loan, of course, but if I could find something within 2%, I think it would be easily worth it. I did some some googling of course but they're all >3% here and usually more like 5% as far as I can see, which is why I'm looking for more creative ways. E: also it would probably be my "daily" too because I already daily a miata, it's not like I have to commute anywhere.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:35
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moana posted:So all of the dealers I've talked to are adding a $1k-$2500 "market adjustment" over MSRP so yeah, I guess we'll just wait a while for things to shake out. It's not a great time to try to get a good deal on a new car as you've noticed. Sam's Club and Costco have "car buying services". Sams is just truecar, Costco's service is pretty good. Some credit unions also have partnerships/car buying services. I have no idea if dealers are playing ball with the car buying services right now. I used Costco years and years ago and it was pretty much just invoice plus 500 bucks, which is usually a fair price, but someone that likes to play the car buying game can get a better deal. Not bad for zero hassle though.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:37
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skipdogg posted:It's not a great time to try to get a good deal on a new car as you've noticed. Sam's Club and Costco have "car buying services". Sams is just truecar, Costco's service is pretty good. Some credit unions also have partnerships/car buying services. My experience with Costco was the dealer was willing to give the costco price but had no vehicles in inventory and only a limited supply on the way that you’d have to order over a month in advance, and gave a super low trade in value for my previous car. It works much better in a normal market.
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Jul 15, 2021 17:16
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mobby_6kl posted:Since we're on the financing I'm going with "Don't finance a toy car". If you're asking "are there companies that will provide loans with stock options as collateral" or "are there companies that will finance my stock option exercise so I can sell", these definitely exist around Silicon Valley. Though since you're not US, who knows since that's a bit predicated on how US tax/option law works.
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Jul 15, 2021 17:43
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I agree that if you are buying a toy car that you don't finance it unless you also have the cash to buy it outright. Even at low interest rates being levered for toy cars is dumb. If you can get a personal loan at a really low rate you might think about it (I think US AI goons have done well with Lightstream ), but you should also have the cash in hand ready to buy cash outright before you start making that decision.
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Jul 15, 2021 17:47
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The credit market is bananas but the unsecured consumer loan market has it's limits. It's competitive or better than secured but ancient car loans but if your goal is using stock markets specifically you aren't going to beat a 1.6% margin trading account if you can afford to buy the car cash and seed the margin account. But yeah sounds like you can shop around while you get the cash lined up so you might as well check the consumer market if only because the market is going up but in real stupid ways and it'd be a real shame to lose your margin collateral because Wallstreet bets did something that halved a stock before doubling it or whatever those kids are doing these days.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:17
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What's the rationale behind not financing a fun (vs daily) car? Or is that just a matter of not taking an 84 month 5% loan to "afford" it? Because as I mentioned, I could have the cash, I just want to use it in the best way given the market conditions. Doesn't have to be stocks because it would, in fact, suck to have the collateral liquidated because of some wsb jackoffs. But the normal consumer loans seem to be poo poo too unfortunately so hopefully something else would exist
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Jul 15, 2021 19:40
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Since we're talking about financing, is income a huge factor in loan approvals? I have a great credit score and no debt, but my income has taken a pretty substantial hit due to a (planned) change-of-life.
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Jul 15, 2021 20:43
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Ur Getting Fatter posted:Since we're talking about financing, is income a huge factor in loan approvals? Yes, most lenders consider the principal as a percent of your annual income as part of the evaluation. The limit will vary depending on the type of loan.
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Jul 15, 2021 20:45
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Ur Getting Fatter posted:Since we're talking about financing, is income a huge factor in loan approvals? The most important factor is debt to income and whether that remaining income will support the size of the loan for traditional financing. If you are in a different situation where you have assets there are asset backed loan options. Also, if you are say, living off of your investments, a track record of that will also be counted as income but that very often gets into different types of underwriting.
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Jul 15, 2021 21:12
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There was zero income verification on my recent auto loan with Toyota. They just had me put down a number and that was it. I didn’t lie. But just saying, I thought we learned this lesson in 2008… ok not really seriously thinking we learned anything but hey
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Jul 16, 2021 02:49
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I'm having buyer's regret about the Mazda CX-30 I got last month. It's a nice car, I think it looks more stylish and solid than competitors in the low-20s range, and the interior is really nice. But the thing is that it's SMALL. This is mostly my fault but also the result of the marketing and branding they use for these small SUVs/crossovers/CUVs/whatever. It's just a hatchback. I'm sure to car people there's some obvious major differences in power or capability but from a practical day-to-day driver perspective it's just a hatchback sedan. I had 4 days to sell my old car and buy a new one so didn't do my due diligence and test drive before, I was just going off reviews and whatnot where it's like SUV SUV small SUV... I thought I was getting something with some extra room. I got a ridiculous amount of money selling my city beater corolla from CarMax to put towards a new car, so wanted to treat myself. I think I got a pretty ok final price, it was $175 over the MSRP on the Mazda website financed at 0.9% over 4 years. So I'm happy with the experience overall but the car itself... I feel not-so-great about. If it was just me I wouldn't care but we have strollers, groceries, a car seat, target runs, visiting inlaws, and all that. I'd have gladly paid a couple grand more for a cornier looking but bigger vehicle. Oh well - lesson learned 
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Jul 16, 2021 19:09
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gamer roomie is 41 posted:I'm having buyer's regret about the Mazda CX-30 I got last month. What you probably should have gone for is a CX-5 considering all the stuff you have to haul around. The CX-30 is basically a Mazda2 with a different body.
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Jul 16, 2021 20:01
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Car people are going to be the ones focusing on crossovers being a tall compact. It's really popular because old and fat people don't need to bend and people like sitting higher in traffic. There might be more cubes in the spec sheet but they seem far worse to use and fill up than a compact wagon. Even then the Mazda utility line is much more obsessed with looking and feeling cool so across the entire line you lose cubes of space and/or easily removed back seats for a slick body taper and really smooth folding down back seats. So depending on how critical it is your best space for money lands on a Rav 4 or CRV.
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Jul 16, 2021 20:23
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King of False Promises posted:What you probably should have gone for is a CX-5 considering all the stuff you have to haul around. The CX-30 is basically a Mazda2 with a different body. The CX-3 was a mazda 2. The CX-30 is a shrunk down Mazda 3, but its wheelbase is still longer than the 2. (The CX-3 and Mazda2 both have/had 101.2in wheelbases, the CX-30 is 104.5, the CX-5 is 106.2, and the mazda 3 is a long 107.3). Both the CX-30 and CX-5 are on the same platform as is the 3 and the outgoing 6.
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Jul 16, 2021 23:54
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gamer roomie is 41 posted:I had 4 days to sell my old car and buy a new one so didn't do my due diligence and test drive before, I was just going off reviews and whatnot where it's like SUV SUV small SUV... I thought I was getting something with some extra room.
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Jul 17, 2021 05:59
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Yeah "this car isn't as big as I imagined" isn't a very strong complaint.
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Jul 17, 2021 07:28
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I don't know, I hear "I thought it'll be bigger" pretty often
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Jul 17, 2021 08:42
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knox_harrington posted:Yeah "this car isn't as big as I imagined" isn't a very strong complaint. I'm not saying it's the end of the world. But I don't think it's crazy to be caught off guard by a vehicle that's nominally considered to be in the SUV family feeling like a compact sedan. I think it's like someone said a few replies back: there might technically be more "cubes" but they don't manifest as useable space. I'm just venting anyway. If I had known this before I would've expanded my search to include more types of cars, but I assumed staying in the CUV/small SUV line meant I'd automatically have more useable cargo space. Nick Jr. Face posted:I'm not a very knowledgeable car guy but even I know that the first rule of buying a car is to always test drive I know but I was in a real pickle. I was moving cross-country which was already stressful but then: - Car shipping pickup window arrives but the bid I put in in March now isn't being accepted - Call other auto shipping companies, they confirm nationwide "surge pricing" from low carrier availability - Not paying 2k to ship my beat up Corolla so I say F this and sell it to CarMax (for $3k more than they offered in 2020) - Supposed to arrive at SFO a few days later and NEED a car - Despite ongoing mass death AMERICA IS BACK and everyone wants a rental car so prices surge on those if something is even available. So I'm already in a chaotic move with just a few days left until the flight, stressed about how we'll manage getting around until I get us a car, and very low on options. It's not really like me to make a major purchase on impulse, but Marin Mazda had a thing that said buy online no showrooms and we'll deliver. Sure enough shortly after we arrived at SFO they were rolling up to my new home with the keys and paperwork. But having said all that, if I was in the same situation again I wouldn't buy without test driving. You just can't get a feel for a car from the internet. mobby_6kl posted:I don't know, I hear "I thought it'll be bigger" pretty often 😬
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Jul 17, 2021 18:04
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gamer roomie is 41 posted:I'm not saying it's the end of the world. But I don't think it's crazy to be caught off guard by a vehicle that's nominally considered to be in the SUV family feeling like a compact sedan. I think it's like someone said a few replies back: there might technically be more "cubes" but they don't manifest as useable space. I'm just venting anyway. If I had known this before I would've expanded my search to include more types of cars, but I assumed staying in the CUV/small SUV line meant I'd automatically have more useable cargo space. The whole segment of subcompact CUVs are super tiny and are at best just lifted compact hatchbacks, which has been all but killed off as a segment in the US. Even a little bit of research and review reading/watching reveals that, it's no secret or surprise. Everything is trying to be or look like an SUV these days, which makes the term SUV pretty useless as a metric of anything. I understand that you were in a stressful life transition, and the CX30 is still a great car for what it is, but that whole segment is not particularly spacious or useful if you need to haul more than 2 people and a few bags. Got to step up to the CX5, RAV4, CRV, Forester, etc. segment for a more general purpose 4-adult utility vehicle. Those are the new default "family car" options for a reason.
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Jul 17, 2021 18:35
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gamer roomie is 41 posted:I'm not saying it's the end of the world. But I don't think it's crazy to be caught off guard by a vehicle that's nominally considered to be in the SUV family feeling like a compact sedan. I think it's like someone said a few replies back: there might technically be more "cubes" but they don't manifest as useable space. I'm just venting anyway. If I had known this before I would've expanded my search to include more types of cars, but I assumed staying in the CUV/small SUV line meant I'd automatically have more useable cargo space. The confusing part is when you go from this to already owning the car as if you ordered it online and never sat in it before your purchase. Actually seeing the car in person should have been able to do the job of letting you know exactly how big or small it is inside.
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Jul 17, 2021 18:39
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We could go into more details about the position of privilege the car buying thread has in knowing what crossovers can do and who they are for and how going in person might not sway someone not paying attention to cars from the illusion that a crossover is big enough especially if you have a lovely salesperson selling you hard on a fat margin well equipped crossover instead of the base model CUV. But the useful takeaway for anyone reading at home about to do a similar thing is when you are buying new there is nothing stopping you from test driving cars at your old home and arranging a purchase to be waiting for you at your new home and this is actually a super useful thing to do generally because there can be vastly different markets region to region and you might get a hell of a bargaining chip when your old home dealer offers to dropship to your new home dealer on their own franchise for a lower price than your new home dealer is offering.
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Jul 17, 2021 18:46
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