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josh04 posted:[The prequels are] definitely art first and foremost, and contemporary review treat the films seriously from that point of view. The problem here is that Lucasfilm was (and remains) also a corporate merchandising juggernaut, and Lucas was the chief beneficiary. So if you don't take the self-serving pretensions of a billionaire CEO seriously, there's not much of a difference. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 01:24
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Sure, but I think an exploration using that lens exclusively is going to struggle to explain a lot of things to satisfaction. Questions like "Why does Obi-wan completely misrepresent the clone wars?" are hard to answer if you're just thinking about toys, in a way that, say, "Why does Captain Phasma do nothing?" is not.
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Aug 2, 2021 01:29
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That isn't what was said. "How do you explain the people who do like them though?" As well as a reference to current rotton tomatoes scores. But good hustle hauling those goal posts after the fact I guess.
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Aug 2, 2021 01:33
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josh04 posted:Sure, but I think an exploration using that lens exclusively is going to struggle to explain a lot of things to satisfaction. Eh, we had a thread for that. And CD still has a thread for that I think. And they both sucked. Let's not make this that thread again.
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Aug 2, 2021 01:40
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Cease to Hope posted:Eh, we had a thread for that. And CD still has a thread for that I think. And they both sucked. Let's not make this that thread again. i can't parse what "that" is in this post
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Aug 2, 2021 01:43
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Jazerus posted:nostalgia for the OT was a big factor in why people liked episode 1 at the time, yes. the consensus that i remember was basically "well, it's not as good as the originals...but there's a lot of potential for the setting, and it still felt like 'star wars'" However, people do have a lot of good will toward the prequel setting as a whole. The TV series which use that setting are consistently popular.
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Aug 2, 2021 01:44
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CainFortea posted:That isn't what was said. Rotten Tomatoes scores are overwhelmingly going to reflect reviews made at the time of release and not 20 years later. You ignored like 3 other posts since where Josh asked how nostalgia applied to people who enjoyed it then
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Aug 2, 2021 01:58
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Like the point of a conversation is not to just repeatedly reply to the first thing a person ever said while they clarify/elaborate on their point. A conversation moving forward is not “moving goalposts”
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Aug 2, 2021 02:02
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Bongo Bill posted:However, people do have a lot of good will toward the prequel setting as a whole. The TV series which use that setting are consistently popular. I think that's less goodwill towards the prequels, and more just goodwill towards Clone Wars and such on their own merits.
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Aug 2, 2021 02:13
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Jazerus posted:i can't parse what "that" is in this post Arguing about star wars Love it or hate it or both, it's great fun! hence all the threads and posts goons have made over the years and forums
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Aug 2, 2021 02:28
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Cease to Hope posted:I think that's less goodwill towards the prequels, and more just goodwill towards Clone Wars and such on their own merits. The quoted post refers specifically to the setting of the prequels, however. I think that a major part of the premise of the Clone Wars series is that it explores the prequels' setting from multiple viewpoints, which I doubt would have succeeded had it not found a large audience with some appreciation for that setting.
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Aug 2, 2021 02:30
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Blood Boils posted:Arguing about star wars what would Dome be without arguing about star wars
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Aug 2, 2021 02:35
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I was just hoping for a different argument than whether the prequels are good and Lucas is secretly an unappreciated genius.
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Aug 2, 2021 02:45
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Cease to Hope posted:I was just hoping for a different argument than whether the prequels are good and Lucas is secretly an unappreciated genius. George Lucas' talents as a filmmaker are neither secret nor unappreciated.
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Aug 2, 2021 02:49
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At the very least if you're going to lament the same arguments being rehashed you can avoid using the tired "you think X is a secret genius" strawman
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Aug 2, 2021 03:19
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lmao those two posts though
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Aug 2, 2021 03:39
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I don't think nostalgia explains why people in our generation enjoyed the prequels on release I was a young teenager in 99, there was very little distance between then and my first discovery of star wars as an older child. Like I don't remember feeling there was any kind of gap or lull, there were 2 new and different releases of the movies not to mention all the comics and toys etc - star wars felt like a never-ending story Now for boomers like my dad who were in their late 20s/early 30s when it first began, sure there could have been some nostalgia motivating their enjoyment - but the prequels are pretty different from the OT in a lot of ways, as I think even the most abject haters would agree. I don't think wistful memories of early adulthood would be enough on their own. I suspect in many cases a love for the genre and good movies is the biggest factor. Bongo Bill posted:George Lucas' talents as a filmmaker are neither secret nor unappreciated. It's true!
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Aug 2, 2021 05:28
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Cease to Hope posted:Eh, we had a thread for that. And CD still has a thread for that I think. And they both sucked. Let's not make this that thread again. 
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Aug 2, 2021 10:17
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When I saw the TPM I was 16-17 and I remember enjoying most of it. I didn't like Jar Jar, Jake Lloyd, or some of the ship designs (they were so different from the OT but some were pretty). However, I loved the worlds he showed, like Naboo and Coruscant. They were so detailed and beautiful for the time. The music was good, the story was decent, and it gave us Qui-Gon who is still my favorite Jedi not named Luke Skywalker. I remember loving AOTC even more because of the worlds, the Battle of Geonosis and that love theme (minor 6ths are so beautiful). It wasn't perfect, but I immediately ran back to the theater to rewatch it for those reasons. I enjoyed ROTS as well because of the battles and conclusion of the story. It gave enough closure, and segued into the OT well enough. Padme dying of a broken heart was pretty funny, but it's a space opera. Opera in all its forms is larger than life. I never felt that way with any of the ST or Disney movies. I almost walked out on TFA when the plan to take out Starkiller Base was just throw poo poo at it and hope it blows up. Rey picking up the sabers to fight Ren after he punked Finn was my favorite moment, but that got ruined by how the end of that fight was telegraphed. Rogue One pretty much convinced me that I wouldn't like any of Disney's Star Wars movies because it felt so contrived. It wanted to connect poo poo that didn't need connect, like how the Death Star uses lightsaber crystals, a scientist knowingly built a flaw in it, the Tantive IV was at the battle along with Darth Vader. Then they used CGI to resurrect Tarkin. The only other Disney Star Wars movie I've seen is Solo via library dvd because I heard that Chewie stole the show. I regret that choice, since it just showed me that they doubled down on the unnecessary connections (loving fuel, Darth Maul, and the name origin). Now, I grew up watching the OT on VHS. I would watch them over and over, listen to the records, and daydream about the movies. I have zero pull to Disney's Star Wars projects despite that childhood fondness for the OT. Maybe it's because they stick so heavily with the OT design and props. At least the PT showed us strange new worlds and civilizations. The only planet that looked unique in the ST was Crait, and even that was a riff on Hoth.
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Aug 2, 2021 11:36
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Bogus Adventure posted:Rogue One pretty much convinced me that I wouldn't like any of Disney's Star Wars movies because it felt so contrived. It wanted to connect poo poo that didn't need connect, like how the Death Star uses lightsaber crystals, a scientist knowingly built a flaw in it, the Tantive IV was at the battle along with Darth Vader. Then they used CGI to resurrect Tarkin. I agree with all of this. On the subject of nostalgia, though, it's so weird to see people give the old EU a pass while rightly hitting the Disney movies for this. It's not something BA in particular has done to my knowledge, but it is a pattern I've seen.
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Aug 2, 2021 13:36
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Guy A. Person posted:You ignored like 3 other posts since where Josh asked how nostalgia applied to people who enjoyed it then That isn't what happened. Again. Also, source your claim. Do you have any actual data on this, or just assuming? Because the site only started a year before phantom menace released. And reviewing things online did not have nearly as much of an adoption then as it does now. And wouldn't for a while.
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Aug 2, 2021 13:48
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Rotten Tomatoes has 78 reviews graded "fresh" and 56 reviews graded "rotten" up to the end of 2001. The reviews are primarily from print magazines and newspapers.
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Aug 2, 2021 13:55
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CainFortea posted:That isn't what happened. Again. gently caress, really? I do have a bad memory let me check: josh04 posted:are you suggesting against all evidence that everyone at the time hated it and now people only like it out of nostalgia? josh04 posted:The confusion is because I was talking about the reviews on rotten tomatoes, which include contemporary reviews josh04 posted:the reason people liked them in 1999 josh04 posted:contemporary review treat the films seriously from that point of view. Sorry, it was 4, I’ll have to be more careful in the future
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Aug 2, 2021 14:03
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Guy A. Person posted:gently caress, really? I do have a bad memory let me check: lol. So, no. You don't have any data. Cool. josh04 posted:Rotten Tomatoes has 78 reviews graded "fresh" and 56 reviews graded "rotten" up to the end of 2001. The reviews are primarily from print magazines and newspapers. There is more to rotton tomatos than the professional critics.
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Aug 2, 2021 14:16
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I think we can leave the nostalgia conversation there, for the sake of a happy friendly thread.
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Aug 2, 2021 14:20
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CainFortea posted:lol. I was responding to the thing you directly quoted me for and josh gave data on RT
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Aug 2, 2021 14:33
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Cease to Hope posted:I agree with all of this. On the subject of nostalgia, though, it's so weird to see people give the old EU a pass while rightly hitting the Disney movies for this. It's not something BA in particular has done to my knowledge, but it is a pattern I've seen. They do? I feel like I see the EU get called out for making every background character someone important n whatnot. That it doesn't get denounced so much may just be selection bias amongst the audience. drat near everybody has seen the movies, whereas to be informed and have opinions on the EU you had to have sought out and chosen to read a SW book / comic /etc.
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Aug 2, 2021 17:17
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josh04 posted:Rotten Tomatoes has 78 reviews graded "fresh" and 56 reviews graded "rotten" up to the end of 2001. The reviews are primarily from print magazines and newspapers. That's really bad by RT standards, enough that I wouldn't think twice if someone said a movie with a 58% on RT was "widely panned."
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Aug 2, 2021 17:41
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Fantastic Foreskin posted:They do? I feel like I see the EU get called out for making every background character someone important n whatnot. Fair. It's also possible I'm just remembering a few outliers.
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Aug 2, 2021 19:03
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Cease to Hope posted:I agree with all of this. On the subject of nostalgia, though, it's so weird to see people give the old EU a pass while rightly hitting the Disney movies for this. It's not something BA in particular has done to my knowledge, but it is a pattern I've seen. Oof, I loving HATED the EU doing poo poo like this. Lol at that book that made every person in the Mos Eisley cantina a super important player in the galaxy and stories like Skippy the R5 that blew its motivator on purpose to let R2 meet up with Luke. As if that place wasn't loaded with washed up moisture farmers or Hutt minions looking to drown their sorrows in a misty pint of space beer.
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Aug 2, 2021 21:14
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The early bounty hunters books did this a bit, but it was characters who like, looked like real characters. Like all the bounty hunters Vader talks to. But future versions just kept getting more and more desperate for screen characters.
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Aug 2, 2021 21:17
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When I taught in Japan, almost ALL of my students liked the Prequel Trilogy. I had one student whose favorite character was Anakin. They also loved the Sequel Trilogy. I can't really think of a pair of trilogies that are more different in world-building. If they loved the PT out of nostalgia for it, why would they also love the ST when it is incredibly different story- and pacing-wise. People like different things for different reasons. There is no one right answer as to why people like things, and that's okay. Also Prequels good
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Aug 2, 2021 21:24
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Bogus Adventure posted:Oof, I loving HATED the EU doing poo poo like this. Lol at that book that made every person in the Mos Eisley cantina a super important player in the galaxy and stories like Skippy the R5 that blew its motivator on purpose to let R2 meet up with Luke. As if that place wasn't loaded with washed up moisture farmers or Hutt minions looking to drown their sorrows in a misty pint of space beer. the cantina stories are actually way more fun than most of the other books. all of the short story anthologies are pretty decent actually
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Aug 2, 2021 21:24
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Lots of the infamously bad EU stuff is a victim of wiki-isation, where canon from goofy joke comics is freely mixed with canon from grimdark landfill paperbacks, all in the same "here are some facts" tone. e: which is certainly not to say that the EU was good, don't worry
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Aug 2, 2021 21:27
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CainFortea posted:The early bounty hunters books did this a bit, but it was characters who like, looked like real characters. Like all the bounty hunters Vader talks to. See, stories about Dengar and Bossk make sense because, well, it makes sense that the Empire would spend bank to catch the people responsible for blowing up Tarkin and his pet project. Also, Dengar is still my favorite hero from the 2015 Battlefront https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMBpwpDJ0gk
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Aug 2, 2021 21:27
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Jazerus posted:the cantina stories are actually way more fun than most of the other books. all of the short story anthologies are pretty decent actually I'm sure they are, and it's a good thing that they are played out in a book rather than forced into a movie like with Rogue One or Solo.
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Aug 2, 2021 21:28
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Bogus Adventure posted:See, stories about Dengar and Bossk make sense because, well, it makes sense that the Empire would spend bank to catch the people responsible for blowing up Tarkin and his pet project. congrats, you are the #1 dengar fan in the world by default
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Aug 2, 2021 21:29
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I love Dengar
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Aug 2, 2021 21:45
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Roth posted:I love Dengar I came here to post a Dengar gif and this came up. I leave it with no comment: 
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Aug 2, 2021 23:55
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I feel like I kinda have the inverse complaint about Rogue One. If anything, I felt like it didn't care enough about the main characters on their own terms because it was too focused on their importance to the original series, and it didn't really want to make waves by fleshing out too much about the rest of the galaxy or shifting focus away from the rest of the franchise. Everyone involved is conveniently taken care of so they won't be a loose end. The short story anthologies are hit and miss (like all collections of short stories are going to be) but the ones I liked best were more about the characters on their own terms, like the dancer and hunter who just needed to score big to run off together, or the backstory of the beast tamer who really loved his rancor. I didn't like the stories about secret agents who were tracking the main characters from behind the scenes or oh wow, this one guy saved the main characters but they never knew about him, or somehow there's a whole benny hill sequence with a bunch of people trying to steal carbonite Han Solo from Boba Fett on the way to Tattooine. It's kinda funny that half of Jabba's palace was working on their own assassination plans to kill Jabba though. Jazerus posted:congrats, you are the #1 dengar fan in the world by default Dengar's kinda dumb, but I like how the X-Wing miniatures game made his ship way better at turning left. It's a wacky gimmick.
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Aug 3, 2021 00:57
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