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Turin Turambar posted:Then I will warn you of how this is really Early Access, for example the AI option doesn't have any difficulty setting. But it's only $10. Yeah $10 is in "support further development/impulse buy" territory for me, especially since I liked the demo mechanics and there really is a lack of good 8-ball games in VR. But I appreciate the warning.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:06
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EbolaIvory posted:Anton don't strike me as someone who actually grasps customer retention and stuff. He does what he wants with no fucks given.. While its not a bad title, its never going to be in every home and is a clear example of how niche VR really is. Which my point here is the guy makes a decent title thats exactly up the lane that PCVR is with its niche audience. I think defining success by "being in every home" is toxic capitalism VR isn't dead its just niche and growing. AAA VR is dead but its better to say it isn't viable to be born yet, but will eventually.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:12
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I see where he's coming from with the tweet, if you're a developer and want to make money in the VR space you're going to want to be on Quest. Anton is the extremely rare person who got in early with something people were interested in, kept updated and made a lot on, and even in his case if he did manage to port over H3VR to quest he'd probably see his sales double or more. Most aren't those lucky few though. Like I was playing that demo of that temple platformer, and wow what a neat, simple concept, so polished, real great experience, but all I could think while playing was "man oh man I really hope he can manage to port it to the quest because he deserves to make money on this and have it be successful". I'm happy to play the PC version with better visuals, but after story upon story of devs saying how vastly more successful their games have been on the quest store, I feel bad for indie developers making unique and interesting things that don't find an audience or make money. I know thats the case on the quest as well, not everything is a success, but the chances are just so much better they can at least keep their head above water. Frankly VR headsets are outpacing PC hardware, and I think its kind of criminal no one has taken a step back and made a rift s type device for pc thats 199, or even 149. No fancy higher resolution panel to have to drive, no on board cpu and battery, stripping out other expensive nicer features, etc. Something cheaper than a quest that isn't going to melt down a 1000 series card to run its panel and framerate, but is better than the old clearance sale wmr sets of 2017 .
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Aug 2, 2021 20:19
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Zaphod42 posted:I think defining success by "being in every home" is toxic capitalism What bar should you use then? Success is defined by units sold in this world. Sugar coat it all you want. Zaphod42 posted:VR isn't dead its just niche Which is what I said? Growing? Not at a rate that matters compared to stand alone. The gap is honestly getting bigger between the 2 and frankly its fine. PCVR isn't going to go away and us nerds will always have access but if you think its going to even get close to adoption rates of something like the quest does you're insane. Tom Guycot posted:I see where he's coming from with the tweet, if you're a developer and want to make money in the VR space you're going to want to be on Quest. Anton is the extremely rare person who got in early with something people were interested in, kept updated and made a lot on, and even in his case if he did manage to port over H3VR to quest he'd probably see his sales double or more. If Anton was making something for the general population he'd change a ton of stuff, port to every existing market, and Karen it up. He'd sell tons of units. But ya know. Its Anton. Would be cool to see some cheaper headsets hit market but I think the biggest issue is some of the base parts are just expensive on the steamvr side? A CV1 sorta refresh. The deca headsets looking neat. O_O EbolaIvory fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 20:22
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If the Quest is selling "at cost", that's roughly 3 times cheaper than they should be selling it to make an actual healthy profit, so that's a HUGE subsidy. PC VR is doing just fine.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:23
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You can't do cheaper than a quest without massive subsidies though. Nobody wants to risk that much money. But most mobile game devs don't make much money, most indie devs on steam make like less than $1,000. Such is capitalism. Not unique to VR to be a competitive space.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:23
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Blade Runner posted:I'd say that investing the extreme amount they did into R&D and then selling at cost is a pretty heavy net loss. It's a similar strategy to console pricing as compared to PC, and I feel a lot of the same adages apply relative to cost and simplicity vs. fidelity of experience. The main difference is that Oculus also doesn't seem to expect their actual storefront to turn much of a profit now, because they believe more profit will come when they've achieved market dominance. Yeah, that's what I was getting at, that the main investment was in the R&D and not in selling the hardware itself at a loss compared to the cost of manufacture. That said, I think this is more "fair" way to do it, in the sense that I think it's a better product and they aren't just making something artificially cheap. This is a very forward looking investment and I think the onus is on other companies to make similar investments if they don't want to fall behind, and they just aren't. It's extremely frustrating because I want to see competition but the other heavy hitters are either not interested, doing other AR-y things, or they initially tried and then gave up.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:28
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Lemming posted:Yeah, that's what I was getting at, that the main investment was in the R&D and not in selling the hardware itself at a loss compared to the cost of manufacture. That said, I think this is more "fair" way to do it, in the sense that I think it's a better product and they aren't just making something artificially cheap. The onus may technically be on other companies, but hardware is INSANELY difficult to build and even harder to make profitable. Investors generally speaking want little to nothing to do with your hardware ideas. You can count the number of companies that could challenge Facebook's position on one hand and none of them are interested. No one is going to release a VR headset with features on par with the Quest for less than $800 in the next 5-7 years, nevermind a standalone. $1000 is going to be the average price for the foreseeable future for any non-Facebook headset.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:32
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Curious research https://research.fb.com/blog/2021/08/display-systems-research-reverse-passthrough-vr/
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Aug 2, 2021 20:33
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PCVR market will improve significantly once the lowest common denominator is on par with the Quest 2, the price is $99, and laptop integrated graphics can drive it The headset might drop down to $199 in 4 years but graphics prices need to drop considerably, and that's not going to happen until Nvidia or Bitcoin have some significant change 9-12 years doesn't seem too crazy of a projection, to me
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Aug 2, 2021 20:36
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Turin Turambar posted:Curious research Finally, one step closer to me never having to take off the headset again
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Aug 2, 2021 20:37
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mutata posted:The onus may technically be on other companies, but hardware is INSANELY difficult to build and even harder to make profitable. Investors generally speaking want little to nothing to do with your hardware ideas. You can count the number of companies that could challenge Facebook's position on one hand and none of them are interested. I mean, yeah, I'm just frustrated about it. It seems like a joke to me that Facebook is the only company that sees the potential and is willing to make the investment to get ahead.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:38
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Turin Turambar posted:Curious research 
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Aug 2, 2021 20:39
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Dunno if this is better or worse than the time Brutal Moose did a video on the rift 
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Aug 2, 2021 20:43
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Lemming posted:I mean, yeah, I'm just frustrated about it. It seems like a joke to me that Facebook is the only company that sees the potential and is willing to make the investment to get ahead. Yeah, I'm in a similar situation professionally and it's extremely frustrating.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:46
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The VR market has been pretty screwed from a pricing perspective from the word go. In the beginning the hardware was crazy expensive and required a beefy PC to run. Now the hardware is more affordable, but no one on earth can afford a GPU
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Aug 2, 2021 20:50
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mutata posted:Yeah, I'm in a similar situation professionally and it's extremely frustrating. Everyone is. I hate that we have to rely on them for our league stuff. But no other headset is as cheap and its entirely stand alone. Just, nothing can compete right now. Picos are getting close thankfully.
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Aug 2, 2021 20:51
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Moving from the vr industry/market discussion, I wish devs would put more attention on sound design in their games. Well, that goes for all games, but in special for VR games. It enhances so much in a game like Thief, I cannot imagine how a VR game with a equally rich audio presence would be. In fact Thief is a good example, in that it has poor graphics (like many VR titles) but it balances it out with the great audio. I want to hear my footsteps, and every clank, crunch, sssh, and hmmm from the environment. Some of the latest VR games I've been trying are poor in that regard.
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Aug 2, 2021 21:20
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.... So anyways I was getting back into Skyrim VR and saw that the higgs mod, the one that lets you actually grab stuff with your hands, now lets you pull food and potions to your mouth to consume them. Finally I can fully immerse myself as a fantasy viking by using both hands to grab meat chunks and shove them into my mouth.
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Aug 2, 2021 21:29
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Leal posted:Finally I can fully immerse myself as a fantasy viking by using both hands to grab meat chunks and shove them into my mouth. / / 
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Aug 2, 2021 21:55
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Have anyone tried this? It's getting good reviews (83% positive) https://store.steampowered.com/app/1530750/EVERSLAUGHT/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ0tpBxdZ34
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Aug 2, 2021 22:34
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All of this Skyrim talk makes me think I should finally give it a whirl. Here is babbys first beginner question. Do you start with Skyrim, or do you start with SkyrimVR as the base?
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Aug 2, 2021 22:45
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Both versions are identical in content. Go with whichever sounds better to you. VR adds some very cool scale but the combat is still boring and the writing is still bad.
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Aug 2, 2021 22:47
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:All of this Skyrim talk makes me think I should finally give it a whirl. Here is babbys first beginner question. Do you start with Skyrim, or do you start with SkyrimVR as the base? SkyrimVR is its own standalone program. If you're modding it, it can use nearly any mod from Skyrim Special Edition (the more recent non-VR version of the game), after you make the required ini tweak and whatnot. Someone posted the basic modding guide not too long ago.
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Aug 2, 2021 22:48
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:All of this Skyrim talk makes me think I should finally give it a whirl. Here is babbys first beginner question. Do you start with Skyrim, or do you start with SkyrimVR as the base? You have to buy them separate. Skyrim has enough complicated poo poo going on that you may get fatigued / frustrated learning it all from within VR, so like No Man's Sky I would kinda suggest starting in flatscreen until you get going, and then switching, but I also don't recommend buying the game twice so... If you do play it in VR make sure you get all the recommended VR mods first because its totally poo poo by default. But if you haven't ever played skyrim before then you're going to have a fun time getting all the right mods set up.
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Aug 2, 2021 22:52
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Turin Turambar posted:If you want to discuss while you type furiously, here are some tweets: This is somewhat reminiscent of 10 or so years ago when Game Journalism (TM) was proclaiming that PC and console gaming would be wiped out by the mobile gaming zeitgeist. There's much smaller of a gap tech-wise between Quest and PCVR currently, but I think the Quest owes a lot of its current success to uniquely being untethered and at an appealingly low price point (along with the chip shortage) and it's only a matter of time before the competition catches up. How long that matter of time will be I couldn't say, but in the end I think it'll end up more or less like PC/console vs. mobile gaming has, in that there's a market for both with standalones being the less powerful / more casual option. Either way, declaring PCVR "dead" is just silly as hell.
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Aug 2, 2021 22:56
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Now the hardware is more affordable, but no one on earth can afford a GPU Yeah at least once a week I hover my finger over the Buy button for an Index, but at the last second I'm like, "ehhhhh do I really want to buy a $400 GPU for $1200 ...... Naaaaaah" So now I'm back to playing Gorn + Echo Arena on my 2.5 year old OG Quest, praying that BTC craters and stays down
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Aug 2, 2021 23:09
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China killed a lot of the mining market, it's mostly just ahole scalpers now.
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Aug 2, 2021 23:38
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I usually try to keep up with all the VR releases but I just put on my Quest 2 for the first time in a while and there's some cool stuff out there! Specifically Swarm caught my eye, but since that's Quest only I'm hesitant to spend money on it. Any goons try this one?Turin Turambar posted:Have anyone tried this? It's getting good reviews (83% positive) All games should have a grapple hook!
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Aug 3, 2021 00:07
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Senator Drinksalot posted:China killed a lot of the mining market, it's mostly just ahole scalpers now. That said it's not looking good still, the prices fell a bit but it's started to moderate again last week. I really want to build a new vr rig but realistically with UK prices that's like £1600 at least and I can't afford to pay that much to go from "bit laggy but mostly playable on reasonable settings" to "actually smooth and good looking". Given that I definitely agree with whoever said that PCVR is just too expensive, I could probably sell my 4 year old setup including VR and peripherals on ebay for around £1000 (I looked) and that's definitely not good enough for a smooth PCVR gaming experience. Compare that with a quest 2 that retails for £399 and the price difference is pretty stark. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 00:38
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raditts posted:This is somewhat reminiscent of 10 or so years ago when Game Journalism (TM) was proclaiming that PC and console gaming would be wiped out by the mobile gaming zeitgeist. There's much smaller of a gap tech-wise between Quest and PCVR currently, but I think the Quest owes a lot of its current success to uniquely being untethered and at an appealingly low price point (along with the chip shortage) and it's only a matter of time before the competition catches up. I mean, the major difference between that example and this one is that PC and console gaming were positively massive industries that were extremely entrenched over the course of decades. Mario's as recognizable as Mickey. The notion that something could topple those behemoths was as exciting as it was insane. PCVR... is not that. It stumbled out of the gate, has maintained a small-but-devoted fanbase, and has had exactly one breakthrough hit that didn't originate somewhere else. I don't think PCVR is going anywhere. If nothing else, Quest ports are cheap and it's great for sims. But the idea that standalone continues to grow while PCVR remains a niche interest is seeming more and more likely.
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Aug 3, 2021 01:01
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Everyone declared PC gaming dead years ago then it came back and swallowed consoles. If your whole deal is to make money above everything else on developing games then that's an issue you're going to have to deal with, going hand and hand with that absolute profit above all else monster that is Facebook. Games are like movies or TV or music or other art, the absolute best stuff comes from a "create first" mindset, see Alyx or Anton's Hot Dogs. Those games came about because they were willed into existence above everything else. Anton is a goofy pure dude that just makes his toy, Valve is a privately held not-beholden to investors group of people that gently caress around and collect billions because they made a good call a long time ago. If you absolutely must be defined by your success, and your success is 'sell most' then that's a perspective issue, not an absolute one. Success can mean a ton of different things. For me, I consider myself successful because I don't have to work for anyone but myself, I have complete agency over myself and time to where I can simply stand up, say "ehh I'm done" and gently caress off and take a nap or whatever without having to justify it to anyone. Likewise if you create things and can make a bit of money, that's a success. If you go 'but I can be making MORE' and compromise yourself to make it happen then that's on you.
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Aug 3, 2021 01:28
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Lemming posted:Yeah, that's what I was getting at, that the main investment was in the R&D and not in selling the hardware itself at a loss compared to the cost of manufacture. That said, I think this is more "fair" way to do it, in the sense that I think it's a better product and they aren't just making something artificially cheap. I agree with this to a point, but you also have to be very uniquely positioned to try and compete with Oculus right now. Essentially, you have to be a large enough company that you can take the hit of VR not being profitable to you for years, and you have to deal with the fact that even if you do start pumping ridiculous money into this stuff immediately, you're years behind Oculus in terms of research. I sincerely think the only two who'd be able to do it right at this moment are Sony starting up the PSVR again, which they seem to be doing, and Valve, who essentially put out the Index and then moved on to other things because hardware development is difficult, requires entirely different staff than software development, and also Gabe got distracted by BCI stuff and only wants to do that now. Valve almost definitely could put out a standalone headset, but I think going to a model where they separate the Steam store into things that can and can't run on the theoretical Steam Quest would be more detrimental to them than not, so they just have no interest in it. e.: To note, I really do think that other companies like HTC, for example, are going to keep existing, but they need to make money off of just their hardware sales, so they'll never be able to compete with Oculus. That's why they went to the enterprise space, they were banking on pushing the ad campaign that Quests are fancy toys while their models are for real business consumers, etc., etc. Either way, yeah, I don't think PCVR is going to 'die' until at least every current PCVR game is easily playable on a Quest natively, which I can't see happening in the next five years just due to the performance required. Though at that point I will indeed just sell my soul to Facebook because like gently caress it I'm not holding out anymore if that happens, really. Blade Runner fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Aug 3, 2021 |
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Aug 3, 2021 01:38
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Blade Runner posted:I agree with this to a point, but you also have to be very uniquely positioned to try and compete with Oculus right now. Essentially, you have to be a large enough company that you can take the hit of VR not being profitable to you for years, and you have to deal with the fact that even if you do start pumping ridiculous money into this stuff immediately, you're years behind Oculus in terms of research. I sincerely think the only two who'd be able to do it right at this moment are Sony starting up the PSVR again, which they seem to be doing, and Valve, who essentially put out the Index and then moved on to other things because hardware development is difficult, requires entirely different staff than software development, and also Gabe got distracted by BCI stuff and only wants to do that now. Valve almost definitely could put out a standalone headset, but I think going to a model where they separate the Steam store into things that can and can't run on the theoretical Steam Quest would be more detrimental to them than not, so they just have no interest in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Daydream#Lenovo_Mirage_Solo quote:Lenovo's Mirage Solo headset, announced at CES 2018, is the first standalone headset running on Google's Daydream platform. It is powered by Qualcomm's Snapdragon 835 system-on-chip, has 4 GB of RAM and 64 GB of internal storage expandable by microSD, dual mics, a 3.5mm headphone jack, a 2560 × 1440 LCD screen and a 4,000 mAh battery. Its highlight feature is support for Google "WorldSense", an improved position tracking technology.[20] This is a full year earlier than the Quest launched. It only had a 3dof controller, but it was a fully self contained 6dof headset. Google literally had something and then just... gave up. Like, they didn't even not bother, they got most of the way there and then threw what they had in the garbage. Absolutely mind bogglingly frustrating.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:04
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Lemming posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Daydream#Lenovo_Mirage_Solo Maybe they got really distracted by their Stadia
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Aug 3, 2021 02:07
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KakerMix posted:Everyone declared PC gaming dead years ago then it came back and swallowed consoles. This reads like PC is the platform for labors of love and Quest is the platform for soulless money vacuums, which is... certainly a take.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:09
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Lemming posted:Google literally had something and then just... gave up. Like, they didn't even not bother, they got most of the way there and then threw what they had in the garbage. Absolutely mind bogglingly frustrating. Lmao that’s googles entire business model
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Aug 3, 2021 02:11
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If anything, consoles swallowed PC gaming whole. Almost every game is multiplatform and built around a controller first rather than kb+m.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:12
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Lemming posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Daydream#Lenovo_Mirage_Solo it's kinda hilarious to read reviews of the solo because it got so close but made so many bad choices - a single 3 DOF controller - no headphones/speakers built in - positional tracking was limited to 1 square meter, step out of that and the headset pauses just amazing to come out with the first standalone positionally tracked headset and all the reviews say it's worse than the Oculus Go (that was half the price)
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Aug 3, 2021 02:18
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sethsez posted:This reads like PC is the platform for labors of love and Quest is the platform for soulless money vacuums, which is... certainly a take. You're supposed to read it more of a "capitalism is the death of us all maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan" take, not a platform defense thing. There are probably going to be a lot more compromises on someone's artistic vision on a closed platform vs. an open one, just because there are more rules that must be followed from hardware requirements to content in your actual game. PC platform tends to have more labors of love on it since it's wide open and anyone can gently caress around and do poo poo. If you want to do that on the Quest (or any console) you have to either play by their rules or crack the thing open and operate in the shadows. Both of them are absolute full of soulless money vacuums, but breakthrough surprise successes come from the open places. Quest absolute will have more slick, cheaply made profit seeking things since that's the whole point. On PC you get wild poo poo like Dwarf Fortress or Unreal World or Minecraft. Things born out of loving around then they found success. Neddy Seagoon posted:If anything, consoles swallowed PC gaming whole. Almost every game is multiplatform and built around a controller first rather than kb+m. There are fewer and fewer console exclusives, to me that means PCs have won. I just played through Resident Evil Village with ray tracing at 3440x1440 with keyboard and mouse.
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Aug 3, 2021 02:21
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