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Didn’t his wife die while he was still writing those books? I always assumed that missing her was part of the explanation for the, uh, “special powers” that the Honored Matres had
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Aug 11, 2021 14:09
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Martman posted:Unironically... kinda? I do wonder if animation would be the best medium to capture the wildly different requirements of Dune stuff. I have long maintained anime would be the best medium for any fantasy or sci fi adaption. Just look at how good the new Witcher anime looks compared to the bargain bin GoT-knock off the TV series comes off as. Or that Highlander anime directed by Kawajiri which is the best looking thing the franchise has ever produced.
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Aug 11, 2021 14:31
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deoju posted:Oh, I'm kinda relieved by that actually. There is a subplot that veers into this in the second book where Alia is going through puberty and general teenage hormone stuff and finds out that it mixes very badly with her pre-awareness
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Aug 11, 2021 18:59
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So, is Paul actually the Kwisatz Haderach? I seem to remember parts of the first book where he initially refutes the title, nor does he really seem to "channel" the feminine genetic memories explicitly like Jessica or Alia do or the masculine ones like Leto II does.
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Aug 11, 2021 19:31
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DarkSol posted:So, is Paul actually the Kwisatz Haderach? I seem to remember parts of the first book where he initially refutes the title, nor does he really seem to "channel" the feminine genetic memories explicitly like Jessica or Alia do or the masculine ones like Leto II does. It's arguable. My take is that he should have been, but he passed the responsibility off on his kids because he couldn't handle it.
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Aug 11, 2021 19:40
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Schwarzwald posted:It's arguable. My take is that he should have been, but he passed the responsibility off on his kids because he couldn't handle it. I guess in that case, since it's apparently genetics, all it takes is the right gene to be expressed and exposure to the spice and the Water of Life(?), and presto! Anyone could theoretically have the powers of prescience and the ability to channel their genetic memories?
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Aug 11, 2021 19:46
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DarkSol posted:So, is Paul actually the Kwisatz Haderach? Yes. quote:"How would you like to live billions upon billions of lives?" Paul asked. "There's a fabric of legends for you! Think of all those experiences, the wisdom they'd bring. But wisdom tempers love, doesn't it? And it puts a new shape on hate. How can you tell what's ruthless unless you've plumbed the depths of both cruelty and kindness? You should fear me, Mother. I am the Kwisatz Haderach." DarkSol posted:nor does he really seem to "channel" the feminine genetic memories explicitly like Jessica or Alia do or the masculine ones like Leto II does. Alia, Leto (and Ghanima) are all abominations, so it's not surprisingly they're written differently.
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Aug 11, 2021 20:19
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Leto has more spice awareness than Paul though, so he's even more of a Kwizatz Haderach.
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Aug 11, 2021 21:46
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DarkSol posted:I guess in that case, since it's apparently genetics, all it takes is the right gene to be expressed and exposure to the spice and the Water of Life(?), and presto! Anyone could theoretically have the powers of prescience and the ability to channel their genetic memories? Yeah, and in Messiah/Children there's loads of tarot cults popping up, and I think the low-level prescience among the Fremen to gently caress with Paul's visions. Other Memory requires some form of Spice Agony though, but those terms don't get thrown around as much in the early books.
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Aug 11, 2021 22:07
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phasmid posted:Leto has more spice awareness than Paul though, so he's even more of a Kwizatz Haderach. I've said this before, but I don't think the Kwisatz Haderach was meant to be like a character-level in an RPG. I think FH retcons this a bit in the sequels with the discussion of the Bene Tleilax trying to create their own KH, and then the BG ghola program flirting with creating a Duncan KH, but initially the KH is an analog to the Lisan al-Gaib. It's like having multiple Christs. There can be only one.
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Aug 11, 2021 22:15
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Jewmanji posted:I've said this before, but I don't think the Kwisatz Haderach was meant to be like a character-level in an RPG. I think FH retcons this a bit in the sequels with the discussion of the Bene Tleilax trying to create their own KH, and then the BG ghola program flirting with creating a Duncan KH, but initially the KH is an analog to the Lisan al-Gaib. It's like having multiple Christs. There can be only one. Maybe so but that's only one side of the BG Mission. The qualities they speak of are simple: a male child who is prepared through ordeal to awaken his Other Memories. There was only supposed to be one, but then again, he wasn't supposed to punch out the old imperium and set up religious autocracy in its place.
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Aug 11, 2021 22:25
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phasmid posted:Maybe so but that's only one side of the BG Mission. The qualities they speak of are simple: a male child who is prepared through ordeal to awaken his Other Memories. There was only supposed to be one, but then again, he wasn't supposed to punch out the old imperium and set up religious autocracy in its place. That kind of ties into what Hodgepodge was getting at IRT Dune's (and Herbert's) gender weirdness, too. The Kwisatz Haderach was meant to be a man because the Bene Gesserit take it for granted that they can control men.
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Aug 11, 2021 22:40
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Jewmanji posted:It's like having multiple Christs. There can be only one.
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Aug 11, 2021 22:53
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Schwarzwald posted:That kind of ties into what Hodgepodge was getting at IRT Dune's (and Herbert's) gender weirdness, too. The Kwisatz Haderach was meant to be a man because the Bene Gesserit take it for granted that they can control men. I think it was more that they needed a man that was like them, because they couldn't access their male-line memories. They were planning on controlling him too, in the same fashion that their order imposes hierarchy. But the idea (to me) seems to have been that their group's prescience was only limited by the fact that they had half a picture. The Guild was out, because their spice awareness was only forward-looking. A male BG though, could give them the power they need to trace all the threads back to the beginning and that could change the whole game. Which it did, just not how they wanted. They're still mad about it 20,000 yrs. later in book 6 lol.
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Aug 11, 2021 22:54
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deoju posted:Oh, I'm kinda relieved by that actually. The Baron, while possessing her, convinces/makes her sleep with some guys to have them work for her. Before this, it's said that she's loving up the ecosystem of Dune (this is Paul's fault to be fair) and kind of a poo poo ruler as well.
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Aug 11, 2021 23:15
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Just read about how The Dune Encyclopedia is kept out of print by Herbert's failson because it contradicts his fanfiction. What a dick.
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Aug 11, 2021 23:20
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Vincent posted:Just read about how The Dune Encyclopedia is kept out of print by Herbert's failson because it contradicts his fanfiction. What a dick. You read my mind, I was going to ask whats been keeping it out of print. Is that true? Insane.
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Aug 11, 2021 23:21
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I listened to the six Frank Herbert books on audiobook and have zero desire to read a word his son ever wrote, sure the ending is a bit of a cliffhanger but Duncan getting his freedom is about as close to a "happily ever after" you'll ever get from the series
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Aug 12, 2021 00:56
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Brian Herbert never wrote a book.
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Aug 12, 2021 01:01
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Vincent posted:Just read about how The Dune Encyclopedia is kept out of print by Herbert's failson because it contradicts his fanfiction. What a dick. What's crazy is that The Dune Encyclopedia contradicts Frank Herbert's own work, so I don't get what the deal is.
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Aug 12, 2021 01:09
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Vincent posted:The Baron, while possessing her, convinces/makes her sleep with some guys to have them work for her. Before this, it's said that she's loving up the ecosystem of Dune (this is Paul's fault to be fair) and kind of a poo poo ruler as well. Yeah Alia grows increasingly depraved and cuckolds Duncan Idaho until Leto 2 tells her to kill herself It's a fun book
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Aug 12, 2021 07:58
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Arglebargle III posted:Brian Herbert never wrote a book. I read The Race for God in High School. I remember vaguely enjoying it.* Meant to read Man of Two Worlds at some point, not sure why I didn't. *Based on reading a summary maybe ten years after I read the book, and going "Oh yeah, that did happen, and also that part," I don't actually recommend the book. I just kind of enjoyed the premise at the time I read it, which was 10th grade.
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Aug 12, 2021 08:21
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Blood Boils posted:Yeah Alia grows increasingly depraved and cuckolds Duncan Idaho until Leto 2 tells her to kill herself
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Aug 12, 2021 08:31
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Jewmanji posted:You read my mind, I was going to ask whats been keeping it out of print. Is that true? Insane. The failson and Kevin J. Anderson claim the book Dune is actually an in-universe retelling of Paul's rise by Irulan to explain away all the inconsistencies they put in their books (like Paul traveling to multiple planets in theirs when the trip to Arrakis was his first trip off Caladan). DarkSol posted:What's crazy is that The Dune Encyclopedia contradicts Frank Herbert's own work, so I don't get what the deal is. Mostly how stupid and wrong their prequel books are is my guess. I think the encyclopedia gets it right that the Jihad was a luddite revolt against computers and not a generic robot war.
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Aug 12, 2021 14:01
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I think it makes sense that all kinds of crazy super-people follow Paul, the Bene Gesserit were working towards creating the Kwisatz Haderach for forever... but seemingly gave no thought to "and then what?" It was like 1) make KH 2) ??? 3) Profit DarkSol posted:What's crazy is that The Dune Encyclopedia contradicts Frank Herbert's own work, so I don't get what the deal is. I think the Dune Encyclopedia was openly "non-canonical" (a term that wasn't really used to keep track of nerd poo poo back then, I don't think) with some handwave-y reason like "it was written long after the events of the books, fog of history, etc." sean10mm fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Aug 12, 2021 |
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Aug 12, 2021 14:15
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phasmid posted:Maybe so but that's only one side of the BG Mission. The qualities they speak of are simple: a male child who is prepared through ordeal to awaken his Other Memories. There was only supposed to be one, but then again, he wasn't supposed to punch out the old imperium and set up religious autocracy in its place. Recall too that Count Fenring "was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern—a eunuch," which seems to imply that the BG didn't see the KH as the end result of their breeding program, but yet another step along it. They're gonna want to breed their KH to make backups.
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Aug 12, 2021 18:02
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I'm sure Brian Herbert and KJA were aware that the Jihad was a revolution against AI/advanced technology and not a literal Terminator robots rising against us scenario, they just consciously chose to poo poo on that to make a story as a easy as possible. It's funny though like, with internet of things poo poo and Facebook's algorithms today the Jihad as worded in the original book of people thinking all this super tech will set them free but instead just lets some folks at the top control everyone even more efficiently is relevant.
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Aug 12, 2021 18:17
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You've clearly never read a Kevin J. Anderson book, then.
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Aug 12, 2021 21:31
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PeterWeller posted:Recall too that Count Fenring "was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern—a eunuch," which seems to imply that the BG didn't see the KH as the end result of their breeding program, but yet another step along it. They're gonna want to breed their KH to make backups. Was that in the original Dune novel? I don't remember those details. Though I guess Jodorowsky really ran with the idea...in his adaptation, wasn't Leto supposed to be a eunuch, and Paul is some miracle baby conceived through blood?
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Aug 12, 2021 21:45
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Xealot posted:Was that in the original Dune novel? I don't remember those details. Yeah, that's a quote from Paul when he meets Fenring at the end. I got no idea about the Jodo stuff.
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Aug 12, 2021 22:10
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grassy gnoll posted:You've clearly never read a Kevin J. Anderson book, then. I've read Kevin J. Anderson books you people wouldn't believe. Multiple paragraphs about how tight Admiral Daala's thighs are in a single book, I read a book where every single dramatic moment began with "And then the _____ broke." All those pages will be lost in time, like worms, in rain, the water of life. The water of life. PeterWeller posted:Yeah, that's a quote from Paul when he meets Fenring at the end. They're right, in JodoDune Leto is a eunuch via losing his junk in a ceremonial bullfight, and Paul is conceived by Jessica pouring some of his blood into her ear. Besides the Incal, you might dig The Metabarons comic as that's another one where a lot of the less orthodox castration/gently caress magic stuff Jodorowsky had in mind for his take on Dune appears. I don't know if I'd call it a great comic but it is, for better or for worse, maximum Jodorowsky. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Aug 12, 2021 |
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Aug 12, 2021 22:21
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Xealot posted:Though I guess Jodorowsky really ran with the idea...in his adaptation, wasn't Leto supposed to be a eunuch, and Paul is some miracle baby conceived through blood? I can believe it, this very thing happens in the Metabarons comics.
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Aug 12, 2021 22:24
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(face of ecstatic glee) I was raping Frank Herbert! Raping! Like this! (humping the air) (serious face) But with love.
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Aug 12, 2021 22:41
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DarkSol posted:So, is Paul actually the Kwisatz Haderach? I seem to remember parts of the first book where he initially refutes the title, nor does he really seem to "channel" the feminine genetic memories explicitly like Jessica or Alia do or the masculine ones like Leto II does. Isn't he pretty definitely NOT the Kwisatz Haderach? The whole issue with the Bene Gesserit is that he's brought into existence one generation too early, before the bloodline project with the Harkonnen is completed. He's close enough that most of the functionality is there but he's still a wild card. Also kinda leads into why Leto II is able to take on the responsibilities that Paul faltered at. They were both fractured mirrors of the intended Kwisatz Haderach. Also who wants to drop 600 bucks for this piece of awesomeness. https://gizmodo.com/dunes-making-of-book-is-so-massive-hans-zimmer-wrote-i-1847462195
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Aug 12, 2021 23:59
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Nah, Kwisatz Haderach was used by the Bene Gesserit to describe a man who could access both male and female Other Memory and thus predict the future accurately in ways they could not. Jessica produced one a generation early; the intent was to unite the Atriedies and Haronnens and put the Kwisatz Haderach on the throne directly. By the second book, the Tleilaxu had even produced their own Kwisatz Haderach, although they also failed to control theirs.
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Aug 13, 2021 00:14
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Paul says hes not the Kwisatz Haderach and talks about coming a generation early at around the midpoint of the book but once he undergoes the spice agony toward the end he does explicitly say he is the Kwisatz Haderach. Presumably he only felt it was accurate after undergoing the spice agony.
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Aug 13, 2021 00:33
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AnEdgelord posted:Paul says hes not the Kwisatz Haderach and talks about coming a generation early at around the midpoint of the book but once he undergoes the spice agony toward the end he does explicitly say he is the . Presumably he only felt it was accurate after undergoing the spice agony. I also saw it as meaning he is not what the BG want the Kwisatz Haderach to be.
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Aug 13, 2021 05:47
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He was just saying it because he could. Get on TV. Stay ahead of the curve even by a measly few generations.
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Aug 13, 2021 10:29
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Kassad posted:I also saw it as meaning he is not what the BG want the Kwisatz Haderach to be. Perhaps, but what they wanted is impossible; you can't control a Kwisatz Haderach. Learning this cost them their breeding program (which Leto II took over and repurposed).
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Aug 13, 2021 10:37
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Sequel script being written.
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Aug 17, 2021 22:37
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