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President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)

Achmed Jones posted:

sure they do. but everything humans touch has that from engineering disciplines to musical scales to how species are named. dogma is a cognitive shortcut to end inquiry and can be applied to any bit of knowledge

so one has to accept that the person conveying the dogma is divinely mandated, usually indirectly (many times over).

in the end, it’s not for me, which i guess is really all that can be said about the whole thing.

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Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



President Beep posted:

so one has to accept that the person conveying the dogma is divinely mandated, usually indirectly (many times over).

that's not true. someone having some good tips on eliminating suffering or reaching enlightenment isn't at all the same thing as divine mandate. it's not all that different from taking advice from experts in other fields

it's ok to just not want to gently caress with the whole thing of course. but there's a difference between not knowing about something and knowing about it and specifically rejecting it, you know?

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)
i guess I wouldn’t consider tips as dogma

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)
but that might be getting back to the whole abrahamic/eastern religion difference thing again.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



oh if by dogma you mean like literal word of god type stuff, my bad i misunderstood. i just meant poo poo that people accept uncritically and that usually has a certain level of being "common sense" (that is, almost unable to be questioned) within the community

DELETE CASCADE
Oct 25, 2017

i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003
what's enlightenment though, is it mystical in nature, do i have to revere people who have attained this status, such as one might revere a prophet

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)

Achmed Jones posted:

oh if by dogma you mean like literal word of god type stuff, my bad i misunderstood. i just meant poo poo that people accept uncritically and that usually has a certain level of being "common sense" (that is, almost unable to be questioned) within the community

yeah, that’s more what i was referring to. again, given my admittedly limited scope of experience organized religion to me means “god said do this like this or you’re wrong.” a decentralized belief system that looks to certain people for guidance on their own journey is something very different to me.

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)

DELETE CASCADE posted:

what's enlightenment though, is it mystical in nature, do i have to revere people who have attained this status, such as one might revere a prophet

i think what achmed jones said makes sense. it’s more like seeing what they’ve achieved (or claim to have achieved) and wanting to replicate their success.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



i dont mean to paint too rosy of a picture for buddhism -there's definitely stuff you really do have to believe (or at least not specifically reject) to sensibly call yourself a buddhist. like, buddhism encourages people to test the hypotheses and not to believe stuff just cause somebody said it and all that sort of stuff which is great, but it's also kind of accepted that you'll land on "ohhhh there is no permanent and unchanging self" eventually. to my mind that's just saying that there are facts about the world (i just think it's a fact that there is no permanent and unchanging self, and have since before i considered myself buddhist) but there's still, idk, lines you kinda ought to color inside of i guess? people aren't gonna try to guilt you or w/e (it's not a sin to not understand, it's not a moral problem if you're wrong about something), but theres still a received metaphysics and stuff

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



yeah what you said is right beep, with the caveat that claiming enlightenment isn't really done too much. it's more a "closer to the goal than me so i'll believe them" than "they went and did it, hot drat!"

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005



[ASK] me about OS/2 Warp
i've decided if i ever become religious again i'm going to hang with reconstruction judaism. they're like the unitarians for jews, everybody's super chill, it's queer/lefty friendly, you don't even have to believe there's a big being in the sky that looks like a bearded guy

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



yeah they're p chill

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)
if i ever get religious i feel like I’d start with some basic cosmology that resonated with me somehow and then start gathering spiritual building blocks from there. it’d be personal.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


i ve never been particularly religious. my dad went to Catholic school where they beat it into him and right back out by the end. im not sure what he believes, he's into some fringe stuff but isn't really adamant about any of it. my mom occasionally says she wishes she took us to church growing up but she never goes herself and doesn't really have any reason for thinking that other than having a somewhat positive view of religion in general. im glad I was raised without a religion though, i went to church a few times with a friend and was weirded out enough by the people there that I didn't go back. Spiritually isn't my thing I guess

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



yeah tbh that's how i ended up with buddhism. it was very much a "oh cool this religion says a bunch of poo poo i already thought was true". like the rebirth stuff isn't really my thing but that's generally not too problematic

figure out the metaphysics first and go from there imo

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


i read about reaching nirvana a few months back because I never really knew what it was and it seemed pretty interesting.

correct me if I'm wrong because I pretty much just read a few Google results but it seems like the point is to ascend from life and stop the cycle of reincarnation to just do nothing at all? is that correct? sounds like a cool goal even if I don't really buy into reincarnation stuff.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



yeah but it's only secondarily about reincarnation (which isn't a great term for metaphysical reasons but unimportant for present purposes). primary point of nirvana is cessation of suffering. the whole rebirth thing is let's say a problem for me and it's not too bad to work around but the goal is to end suffering

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


is it that life is inherently suffering, so by reaching nirvana you stop the cycle of rebirth and living another life? do you recommend any entry level books on the subject

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)
thinking back to my comparative religion class isn’t “existence is suffering” one of the five noble truths?

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012

Jonny 290 posted:

i've decided if i ever become religious again i'm going to hang with reconstruction judaism. they're like the unitarians for jews, everybody's super chill, it's queer/lefty friendly, you don't even have to believe there's a big being in the sky that looks like a bearded guy

most flavors of judaism are pretty chill tbh. if you have some observant jewish friends i recommend going to a purim celebration sometime and eating great food and getting mega drunk and listening to the rabbi's daughter brag about big uncircumcised goy dicks

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)
check out this dude if you’re interested in jewish mysticism and whatnot. awesome stuff: https://youtube.com/c/ESOTERICAchannel

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005



[ASK] me about OS/2 Warp
I don't have any irl friends really let alone jewish ones, but that does sound fun

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



yeah that's p much it. for me (not others, this is how i deal with something that makes no sense to me, not what other people think) i lean hard on the lack of self to understand "rebirth" as something like the consequences of my actions after i'm gone. i want to be the sort of person that causes no suffering to others which "eliminates rebirth". that's kinda fast and loose but is the general gist.

e: sorry i don't know of anything specifically on rebirth. i'm sure there's stuff out there both contemporary and some translation of a commentary on a thing but i got nothin really other than my own harebrained bullshit coupled with more generic stuff

Achmed Jones fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Sep 1, 2021

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



President Beep posted:

thinking back to my comparative religion class isn’t “existence is suffering” one of the five noble truths?

#1 of 4 baby

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



Jonny 290 posted:

I don't have any irl friends really let alone jewish ones, but that does sound fun

well then let's talk on the radio or smth

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)

Achmed Jones posted:

#1 of 4 baby

lol. makes sense.

DELETE CASCADE
Oct 25, 2017

i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003
religion is this hosed up mix of useful life advice, tradition, ritual, community, music, art, and all sorts of other good poo poo, combined with a bunch of problematic claims about the nature of the universe, supernatural entities, life after death, books you have to trust, people you have to listen to... so i guess it's impossible to say if it's bad or not

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005



[ASK] me about OS/2 Warp
i like the 2/3 of the old testament that's either a genealogy record or a desert nomad health code

Feisty-Cadaver
Jun 1, 2000
The worms crawl in,
The worms crawl out.
https://twitter.com/jasonisbell/status/1432929778085019653?s=21

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012

Jonny 290 posted:

i like the 2/3 of the old testament that's either a genealogy record or a desert nomad health code

the book of Numbers is literally just a receipt for the sacrifices various tribes brought to the temple

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005



[ASK] me about OS/2 Warp
"loving whatever you do, do not gently caress with shellfish. we have not yet invented refrigeration technology and you live too far from the beach"

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


https://twitter.com/whataweekhuh/status/1433019804508585991

Pythagoras a trois
Feb 19, 2004

I have a lot of points to make and I will make them later.
I hear ya, cap

mediaphage
Mar 22, 2007

Excuse me, pardon me, sheer perfection coming through
whenever i find out someone is really religious i always view it as a disappointment, especially if they're followers of an abrahamic sect. i have to sit and think about how they're going to act, especially if they view themselves as liberal but never bother standing up against other members of their in-group.

mostly i just try to avoid those sorts

Kenny Logins
Jan 11, 2011

EVERY MORNING I WAKE UP AND OPEN PALM SLAM A WHITE WHALE INTO THE PEQUOD. IT'S HELL'S HEART AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I STRIKE AT THEE ALONGSIDE WITH THE MAIN CHARACTER, ISHMAEL.
ty for your service

Kenny Logins
Jan 11, 2011

EVERY MORNING I WAKE UP AND OPEN PALM SLAM A WHITE WHALE INTO THE PEQUOD. IT'S HELL'S HEART AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I STRIKE AT THEE ALONGSIDE WITH THE MAIN CHARACTER, ISHMAEL.
this is all i need to say about religion:
https://twitter.com/dril/status/1432871650106609670?s=21

Kenny Logins
Jan 11, 2011

EVERY MORNING I WAKE UP AND OPEN PALM SLAM A WHITE WHALE INTO THE PEQUOD. IT'S HELL'S HEART AND RIGHT THEN AND THERE I STRIKE AT THEE ALONGSIDE WITH THE MAIN CHARACTER, ISHMAEL.
also ty aj for your considered thoughts. did not think i'd be reading them here in response to an anti-churchie tweet but that's what makes life fun

i don't really have a response to them i am able to share here and now. except that: when i was coming up anytime religion was bandied about it was usually a buddhist or buddhism enthusiast who would say "it's not a religion it's a Philosophy". funny how things have changed

Agile Vector
May 21, 2007

scrum bored



Jonny 290 posted:

i've decided if i ever become religious again i'm going to hang with reconstruction judaism. they're like the unitarians for jews, everybody's super chill, it's queer/lefty friendly, you don't even have to believe there's a big being in the sky that looks like a bearded guy

i hadn't heard of them but i'm liking the general approach. i like a belief system that's open to challenges from its believers and encourages active discussion

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)

Kenny Logins posted:

also ty aj for your considered thoughts. did not think i'd be reading them here in response to an anti-churchie tweet but that's what makes life fun

i don't really have a response to them i am able to share here and now. except that: when i was coming up anytime religion was bandied about it was usually a buddhist or buddhism enthusiast who would say "it's not a religion it's a Philosophy". funny how things have changed

wish youd change your posts!

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rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

Jonny 290 posted:

i've decided if i ever become religious again i'm going to hang with reconstruction judaism. they're like the unitarians for jews, everybody's super chill, it's queer/lefty friendly, you don't even have to believe there's a big being in the sky that looks like a bearded guy

the church/temple/whatever community can actually be really nice and i totally get the people that are like "I'm not really religious but i just like going to church"

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