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Martman posted:Yeah superheroes are so cringe! My boy Paul Atreides who has magic psychic kung fu powers on the other hand... Rushing to defend superheroes is pretty cringe as well.
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Sep 5, 2021 16:25
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Hodgepodge posted:The second book has that character who takes Paul's messianic bs seriously despite having known him back in the 'hood (er, stiech?), and Paul and Alia just laugh at him knowing full well he's going to betray Paul. Korba The disappointing thing is Stilgar who ends up taking the BS seriously.
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Sep 5, 2021 16:28
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sean10mm posted:poo poo, Herbert hammers home the point that Paul being "one of the good ones" has almost no bearing on how it all plays out except at the margins, the "good guy" white savior imperialist protagonist kills billions anyway. Like we literally read Paul's thoughts where just just says it to the reader. The intergalactic genocide doesn't really feel like its a part of the first book - we just get Paul's ruminations and vague visions, the events of Dune are pretty straight white saviour. It's not until Messiah that Herbert really starts hammering it. Conclusion: Dune Messiah should have been part of Dune.
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Sep 5, 2021 16:43
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It’s Lawerance of Arabia on psychedelics. LoA came out in ‘62 and that’s when Herbert started writing Dune. And like the real life Lawerance of Arabia, there’s a sad after life when the story ends. Villeneuve is going to have to address this one way or another whether he wants to or not.
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Sep 5, 2021 16:58
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If the movie does well then I really hope they can make two further movies in one go, Dune 2 and Messiah.
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Sep 5, 2021 21:46
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I think a lot of fans of the first book are turned off hard by the sequel because all the stuff in the first book about how all the Great Houses are evil including the Atreides is easy to skim over. Leto's cynicism in unguarded moments with Paul, his dying regrets, Paul's dark premonitions, are all easy to pass over. In the second book Herbert slaps you in the face with it. It would be awesome to do Messiah and Villeneuve would love getting to shoot the obscenely huge and opulent imperial palace and the nuclear explosion. But it would never be popular. I really hope the script gives Oscar Isaac something to chew on because Leto I is an interesting character. He's good at playing the Great Game, sick of playing it, and not as good as he thinks he is. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Sep 5, 2021 |
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Sep 5, 2021 22:12
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Arglebargle III posted:I think a lot of fans of the first book are turned off hard by the sequel because all the stuff in the first book about how all the Great Houses are evil including the Atreides is easy to skim over. Leto's cynicism in unguarded moments with Paul, his dying regrets, Paul's dark premonitions, are all easy to pass over. In the second book Herbert slaps you in the face with it. I know that being a Wife Guy in a universe hostile to um, cheerful compliance with heteronormative monogamy I guess, is a huge theme in the Dune books. It still bugs me that the great secret to breaking Suk School conditioning is... threatening a loved one with torture. Like c'mon we probably figured that one out before we had vocal cords capable of speech dude.
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Sep 5, 2021 23:57
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Hodgepodge posted:I know that being a Wife Guy in a universe hostile to um, cheerful compliance with heteronormative monogamy I guess, is a huge theme in the Dune books. It still bugs me that the great secret to breaking Suk School conditioning is... threatening a loved one with torture. Like c'mon we probably figured that one out before we had vocal cords capable of speech dude. The 'love conquers all' recurring motif does feel a little surface level in comparison to all the other themes of the books.
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Sep 6, 2021 00:14
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Hodgepodge posted:It still bugs me that the great secret to breaking Suk School conditioning is... threatening a loved one with torture. drat now that pisses me off too. I guess I was misremembering like the Suk doctors had to have no living family or something, and the wife was from before he entered the Suk School, but kept imprisoned for years, but after Googling that's not apparently the case... Ah well
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Sep 6, 2021 00:24
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Automatic Slim posted:It’s Lawerance of Arabia on psychedelics. LoA came out in ‘62 and that’s when Herbert started writing Dune. I can’t find where it is right now but somewhere at the Venice premiere Q&A villeneuve gets asked about white savior complex and he explicitly says Dune is not a white savior story https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2Z3Wm52yTU Is it fair to say Dune is a white savior story, and that the later books tear the white savior myth apart, or is there anti-white-savior stuff in the first book as well? I haven’t read the first book since high school and haven’t read the sequels The Fremen religion being deliberately manufactured, was that in the first book? Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Sep 6, 2021 |
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Sep 6, 2021 00:43
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Steve Yun posted:The Fremen religion being deliberately manufactured, was that in the first book? Yes. And Paul has a bunch of meandering visions about becoming Muad'dib and being the god icon of a galactic jihad.
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Sep 6, 2021 00:51
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Failed Imagineer posted:drat now that pisses me off too. I guess I was misremembering like the Suk doctors had to have no living family or something, and the wife was from before he entered the Suk School, but kept imprisoned for years, but after Googling that's not apparently the case... Ah well I think there are two ways you can take that. The first is that Suk Conditioning is just a myth the school uses to promote itself. The second is that Piter doesn't break Yueh's conditioning so much as he just breaks Yueh. Torturing Wanna doesn't get Yueh to just betray the Atreides; it turns him into another schemer with an elaborate revenge plot that destroys Piter and almost kills the Baron.
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Sep 6, 2021 00:53
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 They said I could be anything so I became Arrakis, Dune, desert planet  They said I could be anything so I became outer space
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Sep 6, 2021 01:13
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Yueh knows that his wife died horribly, likely early after being kidnapped. He also knows he won't survive the hand off. He tells Leto all that when he gives the atreides the stinky tooth. The moment the baron approached him yueh knew he and his wife were dead - everything he does is an attempt at revenge.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:30
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Steve Yun posted:
I'm not yet there in my reread, but I think I remember some point where it goes from Jessica's thoughts (throughout the first half of the book) about how the Missionaria Protectiva has planted so many safeties into the Fremen culture for Bene Gesserit to use, to some (ancestral? spice vision?) Fremen explaining: no we know about your bullshit, we built an actual religion on top of it, it's not your tool but ours. I might be misremembering. I'll know in like another 50 or 100 pages. (Paul just met Chani for the first time in the flesh, not a dream vision, and is hornier than he has ever been in his life. It's hilarious.)
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Sep 6, 2021 01:31
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Steve Yun posted:Is it fair to say Dune is a white savior story, and that the later books tear the white savior myth apart, or is there anti-white-savior stuff in the first book as well? I haven’t read the first book since high school and haven’t read the sequels Yeah, as well as Leto telling Paul that they have to get the propaganda machine up and running ASAP. And Paul's visions of a blood-drenched future that he knows is the only way out for him and his mother.
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Sep 6, 2021 01:37
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Arglebargle III posted:And Paul's visions of a blood-drenched future that he knows is the only way out for him and his mother. That's not his only vision, though. DUNC posted:He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead—in one he confronted an evil old Baron and said: “Hello, Grandfather.” The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:08
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Steve Yun posted:
Space boots with futuristic fasteners
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Sep 6, 2021 02:14
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Vavrek posted:I've always been a little curious just what it is that lays on that path. It's the Baron, it's not hard to guess. e: Just in case it is, the Baron is explicitly a paedophile with a sexual interest in Paul and a (sort of implied in the books, explicit in the encyclopedia) previous incestuous relationship. Jo Joestar fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Sep 6, 2021 |
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Sep 6, 2021 02:16
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The first story follows a standard hero's journey template more, but it's already pretty heavy handed about how none of the messiah business is going to end well, the "savages" are wildly underestimated by everyone not just in killing skill but technical sophistication and vision, the religion Paul is playing the messiah of is manufactured and he's acting out a role, how the Atreides "good guy" image is manufactured, and so on. It also feels to me like both Leto and Thufir are past their primes and burned out on all the machiavellian poo poo but feel obligated to go through with it anyway. Like if this happened 10 years earlier they would have probably dunked on the Harkonnens. But that’s more my personal read on things than anything solid.
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Sep 6, 2021 02:51
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Jo Joestar posted:It's the Baron, it's not hard to guess.
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Sep 6, 2021 03:19
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In Messiah Paul compares himself to Hitler and he's several orders of magnitude worse.
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Sep 6, 2021 03:25
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Automatic Slim posted:Villeneuve is going to have to address this one way or another whether he wants to or not. LoL 
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Sep 6, 2021 03:55
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Steve Yun posted:Is it fair to say Dune is a white savior story, and that the later books tear the white savior myth apart, or is there anti-white-savior stuff in the first book as well? I haven’t read the first book since high school and haven’t read the sequels Strom Cuzewon posted:The intergalactic genocide doesn't really feel like its a part of the first book - we just get Paul's ruminations and vague visions, the events of Dune are pretty straight white saviour. It's not until Messiah that Herbert really starts hammering it. Its not a white savior story because there is no savior at all. Paul and Jessica are acting for their own interests, and using the Fremen. That is made very clear in the first book, yes, even though the full consequences are explored more later in the series.
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Sep 6, 2021 04:49
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Steve Yun posted:I can’t find where it is right now but somewhere at the Venice premiere Q&A villeneuve gets asked about white savior complex and he explicitly says Dune is not a white savior story It's not in here.
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Sep 6, 2021 04:51
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Jo Joestar posted:It's the Baron, it's not hard to guess. I mean, yeah. What I mean is: does Paul survive longterm? Is he kept around as a slave of the Baron? Is there some way Paul could gain an established place as A Harkonnen, and become (an illegitimate) part of the family? Maybe he could become the new Harkonnen mentat! Piter's dead and Thufir's old. Complete Paul's training and keep him for that. And the Baron certainly could kill his own daughter if he wanted, but is there any route where Jessica survives? That sort of thing. What lays on the path beyond the Baron's bedchamber. Martman posted:The Baron just lying there, blocking the path like Snorlax 
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Sep 6, 2021 05:16
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Arglebargle III posted:It's not in here. Ahh poo poo you’re right I went through it again looking for it
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Sep 6, 2021 05:54
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quote:Originally slated for October 21, Dune’s release date in Australia has been pushed to December 2, 2021. The cinema release date change makes sense since there's lockdowns going on here, but no streaming alternative... 
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Sep 6, 2021 07:37
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Cheap Trick posted:The cinema release date change makes sense since there's lockdowns going on here, but no streaming alternative... Well maybe if you guys hosed up your covid response more and got hundreds of thousands killed you’d get rewarded with a streaming release
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Sep 6, 2021 08:34
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So that's the secret, huh... At least two premiers (probably the equivalent of "governors") are trending towards Open Biden so
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Sep 6, 2021 09:32
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Imperial Suk conditioning ensures that the conditioned won't take human life, specifically the life of their master. That's it! It's no safeguard against betrayal or treachery it's just the "do no harm" portion of the Hippocratic oath physically instilled into a person. Yueh is probably the character I'm looking forward to most to see how he's adapted. There are so many ways you can slice the pie of his motivation it'll be interesting to see what plays out in this adaptation. I never for a second thought, "all you have to do to break imperial conditioning is kidnap a spouse! How did no one think of that before?". I always thought how Piter worked Yueh outside of the book was the real meat of the issue. What you have to understand is that Harkonnens use cruelty like a paintbrush. They've developed pain into a pleasurable pastime with their nerve tanks and public blood sport. Ontop of this brutal, sadistic culture you have Piter, a man the Baron went to the Tleilax and said, "make me a mentat completely devoid of empathy!". There's evil and then there's Piter. Dying is one thing, that sucks, but behind captive to these assholes is a fate much worse that death. Does Yueh want to free Wanna from this suffering? Does he want to ensure his suspicions that she was already dead? The reveal with Wanna is going to shut the whole theater up, I can guarantee that. There's also the aspect of Peiter using Yueh as a defensive weapon against the Baron, who is notorious for disposing people after they serve their purpose to him. If you like it's very similar to how Batman deals with Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins. Batman will/can not kill, but he necessarily doesn't have to save a guy who's about to die through external means.
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Sep 6, 2021 14:19
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Vavrek posted:I mean, yeah. What I mean is: does Paul survive longterm? Is he kept around as a slave of the Baron? Is there some way Paul could gain an established place as A Harkonnen, and become (an illegitimate) part of the family? Maybe he could become the new Harkonnen mentat! Piter's dead and Thufir's old. Complete Paul's training and keep him for that. And the Baron certainly could kill his own daughter if he wanted, but is there any route where Jessica survives? That sort of thing. What lays on the path beyond the Baron's bedchamber.
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Sep 6, 2021 14:30
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Herbert only alluded to the boylust in his novel, whereas Orson Scott Card really developed on the theme. Arthur C Clarke avoided the topic entirely in his writing, not wanting to mix his work and his pleasure
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Sep 6, 2021 14:39
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ZDp9FEvLA Bunch of new footage, lookin so, so good. e: Semuta scene confirmed!
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Sep 6, 2021 14:50
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Failed Imagineer posted:Herbert only alluded to the boylust in his novel, whereas Orson Scott Card really developed on the theme. Arthur C Clarke avoided the topic entirely in his writing, not wanting to mix his work and his pleasure If by "alluded to" you mean the baron telling his people to prepare "a boy for his chamber", specifying the one that he selected because he looked like paul and a few sentences of the baron fantasizing about loving paul
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Sep 6, 2021 15:27
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AnEdgelord posted:If by "alluded to" you mean the baron telling his people to prepare "a boy for his chamber", specifying the one that he selected because he looked like paul and a few sentences of the baron fantasizing about loving paul Yeah, basically. Again, OSC wrote chapters of that poo poo, and like, naked boys wrestling in the shower for important plot reasons
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Sep 6, 2021 15:57
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TheOmegaWalrus posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ZDp9FEvLA Huh, somehow I'd always assumed that "Bene Gesserit" would be pronounced with a hard g, as in "guess". Anyway, looks rad. The glimpses of Caladan in particular looked interesting, and will probably make for a great contrast to Arrakis.
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Sep 6, 2021 19:35
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Perestroika posted:Huh, somehow I'd always assumed that "Bene Gesserit" would be pronounced with a hard g, as in "guess". Villeneuve clearly correctly pronounces it as "gif"
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Sep 6, 2021 19:54
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It comes from “Jesuit”
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Sep 6, 2021 20:05
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Automatic Slim posted:
I get your point but he won't have to. The first book does warn us quite convincingly, even if it absolves Paul of some blame. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Sep 6, 2021 |
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Sep 6, 2021 21:37
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