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Postorder Trollet89 posted:I get your point but he won't have to. The first book does warn us quite convincingly, even if it absolves Paul of some blame. Yes. The book lays it out well. My favorite line in the book is when Jessica chides to Paul, “no religion is simple”. Social Media will do as it does and some will try to score what points they want without context or reading the book.
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Sep 6, 2021 22:46
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Automatic Slim posted:Social Media will do as it does and some will try to score what points they want without context or reading the book. True. We all knew it was coming.
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Sep 7, 2021 00:12
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sean10mm posted:It also feels to me like both Leto and Thufir are past their primes and burned out on all the machiavellian poo poo but feel obligated to go through with it anyway. Like if this happened 10 years earlier they would have probably dunked on the Harkonnens. But that’s more my personal read on things than anything solid. The point is that Leto has been gunning for the big chair basically since birth. It's why he doesn't marry Jessica. He loves her, she loves him, but if he's unmarried there's always the chance he can be married into the imperial family. He's made his House probably the single strongest House in the universe......but it's not enough to fight the Emperor yet, which is so clearly what he is building towards. And so his House is marked for annihilation before it cant reach that point. He's not as good as he thinks he is, but don't mistake that for incompetence or even mediocrity. He has legitimately reached a point of being a threat to the throne, and that's why he needs to be stopped. His flaw is in thinking he could just do all this pretty openly and not face the consequences, not in not being good enough to do it. The point of even having this discussion in the movie thread is that it's all basically information you get in the first like 9 seconds of the story. Nobody in all of existence is blind to what is happening and what will happen, and everyone knows why it's happening too. The only one that doesn't see it is Paul, a child. It's part of the theme of stagnation and prescience. Everyone can see the path in front of them, nobody knows how to break free from it. Postorder Trollet89 posted:I get your point but he won't have to. The first book does warn us quite convincingly, even if it absolves Paul of some blame. To be fair to him he's like 15 when the story starts. And he's put in a position with almost no real choices for basic survival, let alone to take a moral stand. By the time he's in a position to do so, he's barely human and all his options suck. He may have had a privileged upbringing, but the overwhelming majority of his life was violence and torment. And also his second son had to become a giant dick monster for three thousand years. So, you know, I think he paid his dues. Mulva fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Sep 7, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 00:14
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To be fair to Leto he absolutely knows that Arrakis is a trap and that it represents the Emperor moving against him, he just thinks the trap is that he is being set up to fail to deliver on the spice quotas and be discredited amongst the nobility, not that the Emperor, Harkonnen and the Guild are going to conspire together to drop an army on him.
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Sep 7, 2021 00:35
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Mulva posted:His flaw is in thinking he could just do all this pretty openly and not face the consequences, not in not being good enough to do it. It's more his mistake is thinking doing all this pretty openly and earning an esteemed position among the Landsraad will protect him from the consequences.
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Sep 7, 2021 00:38
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Alchenar posted:To be fair to Leto he absolutely knows that Arrakis is a trap and that it represents the Emperor moving against him, he just thinks the trap is that he is being set up to fail to deliver on the spice quotas and be discredited amongst the nobility, not that the Emperor, Harkonnen and the Guild are going to conspire together to drop an army on him. No, they expect the direct attack and Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnen troops. What they miscalculate is the scale of the attack - which is roughly ten times larger (in ships, troops, etc) than they planned for.
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Sep 7, 2021 01:01
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He knows it's a trap but the plans he talks about suggest he thinks he has months or even years, not a few weeks. Also Leto's endgame is becoming strong enough that Shaddam has no good options other than marrying Irulan to Leto. Which means he doesn't want to challenge the Emperor in open warfare, just become powerful enough and popular enough that he is the obvious choice to be the Imperial son-in-law. I think Leto and his inner circle are unaware just how much attention Paul's birth has focused on the Atreides. He can't know that the Guild is in the tank against him. And as someone suggested upthread, it seems like Leto's heart isn't in it anymore. Maybe 10 years ago he and Thufir would be sharp enough to avoid the trap, but now he just fantasizes about disappearing into deep space and plays his part.
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Sep 7, 2021 01:18
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I think the idea that Leto was planning to marry Irulan probably isn't right; from her writings, Shaddam himself actually wanted to have Leto as a son, though the age gap was too great for her to marry him. It was the other houses he was trying to keep on side by leaving the possibility of marriage open. AFAICT, the reason why House Corrino moved against House Atreides was just that the balance of power between the Imperial House, the Guild and the Landsraad was so fragile that the sort of potential threat House Atreides was becoming couldn't be allowed to survive. The tripod is the most unstable of political structures, and all that. e: Reading between the lines a bit, it looks like part of the Bene Gesserit plan was to put their Kwisatz Haderach on the throne, either directly or as the heir to Feyd-Rautha. Depending on what exactly he knew, Shaddam might have been trying to disrupt their breeding programme by wiping out the Atreides (and perhaps fatally weakening the Harkonnens for later disposal, too - their big advantage was wealth, and they lost a vast fortune paying for the invasion of Arrakis). Jo Joestar fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Sep 7, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 02:09
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Arglebargle III posted:He knows it's a trap but the plans he talks about suggest he thinks he has months or even years, not a few weeks. Yes. Leto just runs out of time. He figured out the key to defeating the trap: aligning with the Fremen. It's why he sends Duncan in advance. It's why he keeps talking desert power. And he's right; he just doesn't have the time to solidify that alliance. Jo Joestar posted:e: Reading between the lines a bit, it looks like part of the Bene Gesserit plan was to put their Kwisatz Haderach on the throne, either directly or as the heir to Feyd-Rautha. Depending on what exactly he knew, Shaddam might have been trying to disrupt their breeding programme by wiping out the Atreides (and perhaps fatally weakening the Harkonnens for later disposal, too - their big advantage was wealth, and they lost a vast fortune paying for the invasion of Arrakis). One thing to consider is that there are two BG plans at play here. There's the political plan to marry a daughter of Duke Leto to Feyd Rautha to unite their houses and perhaps overthrow the Emperor. There's also the KH breeding plan, and that seems to have multiple paths towards its goals considering Count Fenring, the potential KH who maybe can't be the KH because he's also a "genetic eunuch."
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Sep 7, 2021 03:13
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phasmid posted:True. We all knew it was coming. Recreational outrage is all the... rage
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Sep 7, 2021 03:38
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Another factor in Leto getting got is that he probably never conceived of how much of a risk the Harkonnens would be willing to take "just" to get rid of a rival. Leto always appeared quite concerned with the safety of his family and legacy, at least as far as he could square it with his greater ambition/duty. Even if he ultimately decided against it, he frequently considered just bailing out and going into exile to protect his family. Clearly, he's not a reckless man. After taking out the Harkonnen spice reserves, he figures that their position is too precarious for them to be able to risk any major moves in the near future. But then Vladimir goes and all but bankrupts his house and pretty much wholly places them in the Emperor's power, all for one hail-mary at taking out the Atreides. And while it did work out for him in the short term, it could've gone bad in any number of ways. It's something that Leto wouldn't even consider because it's such a ludicrous risk, which is why it took him by surprise the way it did.
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Sep 7, 2021 10:06
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxL_0LUad3M
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Sep 7, 2021 10:47
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The glowing review is encouraging, but man, I hope the actors in the movie pronounce things more consistently than this guy does
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Sep 7, 2021 14:08
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Based on the videos thus far they say Harkonnen the less popular way in the movie (I think the only clip from the actual movie is Brolin but in the Houses video several actors and Villeneuve say it) so that'll take a bit of getting used to.
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Sep 7, 2021 14:16
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Cognac McCarthy posted:The glowing review is encouraging, but man, I hope the actors in the movie pronounce things more consistently than this guy does I’m sure Deli Vellanov will pull it off
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Sep 7, 2021 14:17
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And how can this be? For he IS the quiz-hatched humpback!
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Sep 7, 2021 14:34
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Lord Krangdar posted:Its not a white savior story because there is no savior at all. Paul and Jessica are acting for their own interests, and using the Fremen. That is made very clear in the first book, yes, even though the full consequences are explored more later in the series. I guess, yeah. I'd still like to have seen the book explore it more from the Fremen perspective than it does. Especially as the few bits of that we do get are some of my favourite bits in the series - Chani freaking out about Paul in the spice orgy, Stilgar contemplating killing the twins, that Fremen fighter who gets his mind blown by an ocean, Darwi not knowing if humanity had escaped letos prescience etc. . I find people reacting to the superman way more compelling than the superman himself.
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Sep 7, 2021 15:26
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regarding yeuh i thought the reason he was able to violate his conditioning wasnt that his wife was being tortured or would be killed or was dead it was the schroedingers cat aspect of her being all those conditions and not at once that ambiguity broke him in some way.
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Sep 7, 2021 18:32
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Groovelord Neato posted:Based on the videos thus far they say Harkonnen the less popular way in the movie. I hate this.
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Sep 7, 2021 18:58
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Steve Yun posted:I’m sure Deli Vellanov will pull it off edit: That "review" video 0:00-0:13 youtuber intro 0:14-0:41 jodorowski and lynch did some things 0:42-1:10 actual review (it's beautiful and perfect) 1:11-2:07 plot summary 2:08-6:20 actual review (the script is perfect the visuals are perfect the actors are perfect it's a perfect movie) 6:21-13:00 trailers very useful bawfuls fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Sep 7, 2021 |
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Sep 7, 2021 19:49
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Ammanas posted:regarding yeuh i thought the reason he was able to violate his conditioning wasnt that his wife was being tortured or would be killed or was dead it was the schroedingers cat aspect of her being all those conditions and not at once suks to be yueh
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Sep 7, 2021 20:08
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SixFigureSandwich posted:suks to be yueh
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Sep 7, 2021 20:11
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SixFigureSandwich posted:suks to be yueh Thread title when?
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Sep 7, 2021 20:17
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SixFigureSandwich posted:suks to be yueh Masterstroke.
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Sep 7, 2021 20:20
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Anybody else bringing buckets of ground cinnamon with them to the theatres?
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Sep 7, 2021 20:24
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SixFigureSandwich posted:suks to be yueh
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Sep 7, 2021 20:25
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Odoyle posted:Anybody else bringing buckets of ground cinnamon with them to the theatres? Yes, but I've been doing that for years
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Sep 7, 2021 20:27
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The spice must flowbawfuls posted:little known fact the planet Irakiss is a reference to Iraq and the story is a metaphor for the Iraq war
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Sep 7, 2021 21:28
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Odoyle posted:Anybody else bringing buckets of ground cinnamon with them to the theatres? Of course I do, have you seen theater markup?
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Sep 7, 2021 21:46
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Crespolini posted:I hate this. Not sure why they made the decision when the other adaptations say it the other way but what are ya gonna do. The United States posted:I'm guessing youtube is advantaging videos over 10 minutes or something and look if you don't have much to say why not pad it out with trailers (guessing trailer footage is pre-ok'd with the copyright cops) A few years back they changed the algorithm or whatever to advantage longer videos (which killed people that did song parodies and such) and 10 minutes was some sort of minimum but I can't remember why.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:06
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Automatic Slim posted:It’s Lawerance of Arabia on psychedelics. LoA came out in ‘62 and that’s when Herbert started writing Dune. Dune doesn't have a white savior plot though.
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Sep 7, 2021 23:52
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I said come in! posted:Dune doesn't have a white savior plot though. Dune is a warning against saviors and personality cults. That won't stop people from posting that the movie does. Villeneuve gives a good answer on that though.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:00
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Failed Imagineer posted:Thread title when? I am guaranteed to autoban myself again if I try to do this
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Sep 8, 2021 00:00
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Automatic Slim posted:Dune is a warning against saviors and personality cults. This is pretty much what will happen. I'm sure Villeneuve will set the stage for all of these critiques the books eventually embrace, while people inclined to read the movie uncharitably will ignore all of that and push a bad faith take because outrage is easy. I've gotten into similar arguments about The Last Samurai or Last of the Mohicans, which people also identify as "white savior" stories even though the actual point of both of those movies isn't that.
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Sep 8, 2021 00:36
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Don't forget that there are plenty of people that get all unironically "oorah" over Starship Troopers both in book and in movie form.
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Sep 8, 2021 01:49
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Perestroika posted:Another factor in Leto getting got is that he probably never conceived of how much of a risk the Harkonnens would be willing to take "just" to get rid of a rival. Leto always appeared quite concerned with the safety of his family and legacy, at least as far as he could square it with his greater ambition/duty. Even if he ultimately decided against it, he frequently considered just bailing out and going into exile to protect his family. Clearly, he's not a reckless man. After taking out the Harkonnen spice reserves, he figures that their position is too precarious for them to be able to risk any major moves in the near future. 
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Sep 8, 2021 02:09
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Villeneuve pronunciation count incrementing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq6_vQXRK5U Automatic Slim posted:Dune is a warning against saviors and personality cults.
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Sep 8, 2021 04:35
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The United States posted:I really doubt the ~first movie~ of this adaptation gets that far into it though Let them eat
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Sep 8, 2021 06:46
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TheOmegaWalrus posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1ZDp9FEvLA i love those fishbowl helmets @ 0:35
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Sep 8, 2021 08:05
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Strom Cuzewon posted:The intergalactic genocide doesn't really feel like its a part of the first book - we just get Paul's ruminations and vague visions, the events of Dune are pretty straight white saviour. It's not until Messiah that Herbert really starts hammering it. It's not white savior at all. The Fremen are just there to be used, the story isn't about saving them. The story is about the intergalactic feudal system and the conflicts therein.
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Sep 8, 2021 17:33
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