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I thought that fight ended in mercy because you free Berdly using ACT, and the Queen no longer has leverage. When you go attacks, you're damaging the Queen and not freeing Berdly (so he has to do it himself.) But if still doing pure ACT in that fight alone isn't enough, then I imagine how you deal with him in previous fights impacts it? Weird.
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Sep 20, 2021 14:52
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Deltarune Ch2: Cool and good. I laughed out loud more at queen than I have in any game ever. I dunno what it is but Toby just nails that particular sense of humour so well. Can't wait for the next chapter batch. The one downside I'm getting at this point is that, at least on the "normal, I'm bad at subtlety" routes, there's a) not a *ton* of content, and b) not a *ton* of nudging to the deeper parts of the game. I'm hoping that, once you "finish" the boring route (I'm willing to bet the "boring" route ends at ch5, and ch6/7 are the true-good/true-bad route endings), there's a flowey-style nudge of "huh do you remember that weird door in chapter 1? I bet there's something to learn behind that." Naturally, I finished the game and then read every post in this thread because I knew for sure I was missing some important stuff. Thoughts: Ha ha holy poo poo snowgrave  someone mentioned earlier and I have to agree, Toby absolutely knows how to nail that creepypasta feel. He really is a master of taking advantage of the narrative advantages that video games as a storytelling medium gives him.sans. is the only piece of music that shows up completely unaltered from Undertale. Nobody else from UT even has a leitmotif. It's even literally the same content ID in the spotify album. He's obviously got a clue as to what's going on, but given the UT stuff I'd guess he's here intentionally Obviously we've only got two chapters up now so it's hard to project themes but I'm guessing that the overall thrust is going to be control vs freedom. Catti talks about occult stuff with Kris - maybe that's the impetus behind the Dark Fountain stuff? This is 100% spitballing at this point but I mean we have established that Kris has some sort of magic in the real world - maybe they were trying to summon Asriel or a friend or something and that's where Ralsei and the original Dark Fountain are from. I'm also thinking that Ralsei might be bound to Kris' knife? Or at least, something else Kris keeps on their person.
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Sep 20, 2021 14:58
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There's a part when you're walking through the city with Noelle where you're talking and slowly spelling out December (I think). While you're walking you both get obscured by buildings in the foreground but you can still see their silhouette. Near the end Noelle's silhouette seemingly changes to a younger version of herself. Does anyone have a screenshot of that? And did Kris's silhouette change in that section at all?
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Sep 20, 2021 14:59
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I've been thinking about this all weekend, and I think I've figured some things out from a themetic and metanarrative perspective. The tl;dr is that Deltarune isn't just about "your choices don't matter": it's a meditation on the reasons why they don't matter. Chapter 2 Themes: Servitude, manipulation and control of others, devil's bargains, and the price of seeking personal freedom. The chapter starts with Kris obeying the commands of Toriel and Alphys on a school day, like always. Noelle give Susie and Kris a (friendly) invitation to work together at the library. Noelle is eventually revealed to be basically in a servile role with Berdley in general. Ralsei tells us about a new mechanic to Recruit darkners for his town. The Queen is attempting to recruit Lightners with a contract for her plans, notes possible less than savory designs for these would-be peons, and then underscores the point by forcibly taking control of the outlet plug darkners with her control plugs. Susie rebels somewhat against our sole discretion over battle tactics (in the fight against somewhat rebels, natch) by forcibly introducing party member Acts as a mechanic. Berdly practically forces the Queen into a contract with him, much to her annoyance. We can of course either work agreeably or... coercively with Noelle once we're away from Ralsei and Susie's prying eyes. The "truces" are much more emotionally beneficial cooperative arrangements than the more hierarchical master/servent contracts that fill the rest of the chapter. Spamton's whole subplot is about how he entered into a devil's bargain for fame, prestige, and freedom, but lost everything he truly cared about and ended up with not even the stuff he got in the bargain once his master abandoned him. Hence, him trying to get a similar deal between himself and Kris to get back what he lost and then some. The Swatchlings and Tasque Manager are happily in the Queen's employ, and TM's entire reason d'etre is to force the Tasques into order on pain of whip. Kaard slipped away from Castle Town just to get himself a servile gig with another royal despot. Interestingly, neither the Queen nor Spamton are willing to force Noelle or Kris to do what they want, in stark contrast to our actions in the Side B route. The Queen will happily kidnapp Noelle but won't force her to do anything against her own free will. Noelle only signs the contract with the Queen (and us, in Side B) due to her psychological weakness to telling others definitively "no". Likewise, the Queen can't stand Beardly, but won't coerce him into leaving her alone (at least until the end with the control plug) so she has to spend the middle portion running and hiding from him. Spamton is willing to use any dirty psychological manipulation in the book to sell Kris his deal, but can't force them to do anything (admittedly, that may be because he lacks the physical power to do so until he gets Neo). Noelle can become physically stronger and gain the power to stand against others, but in Side B it comes st the cost of her sanity and complete subservience to the player. If the theory that Kris used occult rituals to become the Dark World Knight is true, then Kris may have sold (control over) their Soul to a dark entity for the power to obtain their Freedom from the rest of Hometown society and their own loneliness, and is learning from their experiences from us as their new task master and Spamton's situation what a bogart deal it really was. Which brings me to what I think Chapter 3's themes could be: Authority figures, chain of command, need to get results, what the other side of the devil's bargain looks like. Toriel and either Undyne/Napstablook/Asgore will probably be the focus characters. For simplicity, I'll just assume Undyne for now. Toriel is Kris' mother, Undyne a police officer. As such, they both have authority over Kris, and thus can curb their agency to their commands. Kris may seek (among many other things) to free themself from Toriel's smothering motherhood and the rest of the limiters Hometown in general puts on them, via Undyne as enforcer of town laws and safety concerns. (Ironically, if the theory about them being responsible for the internet outage is true, then along with the tire slashing they may be seeking to cut off Hometown from the outside world completely, denying them all freedom). But Toriel and Undyme aren't simple masters; they have people they in turn amswer to. Undyne answers to the Mayor, who in turn may answer to Hometown voters or a county board. Toriel, as a legal guardian of an adoptee and a divorcee herself, may have to answer to CPS inquiries or a court-ordered standard of parental care on pain of losing guardianship over Kris. In all the above, the authority figures that hold power over others themselves have masters they answer to, and must keep delivering good results to stay in their good graces. Which brings me back to our role in all this. Yes, Kris sold their Soul and we get custody of it. But they didn't make the deal with us, at least, as far as we know. We were simply assigned to Kris' case, so to speak. Perhaps by the dealmaking entity. And I think in Chapter 3 we'll learn what is expected of us, the cost of failure, and the pressure to thus get those results by whatever means necessary. Right now, Side B seems pointlessly cruel for cruelty's sake. But, maybe the Twisted Sword will be required to Proceed with the story. What, don't like it? Do you not have control over a Soul? The person it controls? The party members they control? Then control them and do not fail us. You that Dark Hole near Castle Town right? A spare Save slot or two you're probably not really using? The ability to replay chapters? Use those as well and get that drat Thorn Ring, whatever it takes, chop chop. Or else. The reason your choices don't matter? 
Rhodo Dendron fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Sep 20, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 15:01
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Macaluso posted:You have to act on Berdly whenever you're able to. I think you can only loosen his plug if her wall isn't up. You have to focus on Berdly basically. Once you fully loosen his plug the fight ends doing that changes nothing about how it ends. clearly something else needs to be done before it can happen. the next logical experiment is to see if you are in the state where you can get the "good" ending to the fight if then FIGHTing the boss changes things at all but i'm not replaying this game immediately for a third time for that!
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Sep 20, 2021 15:09
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Amppelix posted:yes i know how the fight works lmao i just did it three times Then it has to be because you beat him up before the boss fight with both of them. It would seem you have to go non-violent in all encounters or he'll be injured. Other than that I can't think of any difference between my playthrough and yours.
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Sep 20, 2021 15:12
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Blaziken386 posted:the fact that the Twisted Sword has the same ability makes me nervous. The sword would be used by Kris thus giving them the trance status effect so to get the strongest possible Kris you'll be turning them into something as close to a true puppet as you can and considering how much the player overwrites Kris's personality in the Cold Day run that's a loving bad combination. You're definitely overwriting Kris's personality with bad actions because manipulating Noelle involves dialogue options and actions turning into things that Kris would never say or do based on what we know about them. For the ring itself look what happens to Noelle a few minutes after putting it on when she's internalized the Getting Stronger mentality, she doesn't even recognize Berdly as anything other than an enemy that Kris might want dead despite him calling her by her name twice. She partially breaks out of it because it hasn't been much time but with someone like Kris it wouldn't surprise me if the sword makes it so they remove the soul Hell, I could write a very long series of posts just about Noelle's route and how the player slowly exerts more control over the game (responding directly to her thoughts for example) and what that means for future chapters. God this game is so much more interesting than Undertale
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Sep 20, 2021 16:01
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It's funny, after I beat this yesterday I was like "Wow that was charming and interesting and I'm looking forward to Chapter 3!" but I wasn't, like... blown away or anything. And then I just... kept thinking about Deltarune all day, humming the music, thinking about the characters, thinking about the town... Toby Fox writes great ear worm music but somehow he also manages to create great "mind worm" settings and characters even with 30% of the complete game. How does he do it??
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Sep 20, 2021 16:02
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:She had chalk this whole time?! Obviously becase Deltarune lets you do all kinds of creepypasta poo poo, which only works as long as Kris hasn't met Papyrus. Unlike the genocide route fallen child, Kris clearly has a soul and an independent personality, which means the side b stories would come to an immediate halt when they meet him.
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Sep 20, 2021 16:03
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One thing I noticed after watching a playthrough of Side-B: As much as you're taking away Noelle's decisions, which many people have commented on, I think it's interesting that you're basically subverting the videogame choice mechanic in the opposite way of Chapter 1. In Chapter 1, the game makes it very clear that your choices don't matter. When you get the chance to express an opinion, the game overrides you and prevents you from answering. Or both choices result in the same outcome. In the Chapter 2 side-b route, you're presented with the classic 'but thou must!' video game choices, where there's one right and one wrong answer. If you say 'yes, I will further the plot', all continues smoothly. If you say 'Nah, I won't further the plot', the game says 'Not a valid option' and gives you the same question again. No matter how many times you hammer 'Nah', you'll just be stuck in a loop until you choose to proceed.  Here, though, you can and must hammer against the 'but thou must!' prompt. Stealing from the shopkeep, forcing Noelle through the mouse puzzles, killing Berdly, each time you have to repeatedly give the same command, get the failure message, and then keep doing it.
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Sep 20, 2021 16:11
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I wasn't really into queen or spamton as characters and think the silliness didnt have enough of the seriousness/mystery to counterbalance it ( like lancer's dad actually being scary/serious or jevil in his entirely - I adore jevil.) Looks like all of that was in the B side so thats on me for not playing genocide routes.
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Sep 20, 2021 16:15
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That Dang Dad posted:
Inborn talent.
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Sep 20, 2021 16:27
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Hey, remember when Chapter 1 came out and everyone thought the game was gonna be way darker than Undertale? 
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Sep 20, 2021 16:36
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Flesnolk posted:Inborn talent. Or years of practice, experience and a good team. Magic blood is a poo poo explanation.
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Sep 20, 2021 16:37
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Brandfarlig posted:Or years of practice, experience and a good team. Magic blood is a poo poo explanation. And some very good influences if his taste in video games is any indication
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Sep 20, 2021 16:39
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Y'know I wonder if Toriel's going to become a guest star party member this next chapter, given she's likely getting sucked into this dark world too. Might also mean Asgore guest star party member down the line, helping dad work through his grief (or SnowGrave it I guess)
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Sep 20, 2021 16:44
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Something that's interesting about the alt route is that Queen seems unaware that anything is wrong. She realises that Noelle seems tired, but other than that, she has apparently completely failed to notice that her mansion has been taken over by a megalomaniacal puppet.
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Sep 20, 2021 16:46
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Meeko posted:Y'know I wonder if Toriel's going to become a guest star party member this next chapter, given she's likely getting sucked into this dark world too. considering how hosed up this chapter already gets future chapters are sure to be... something. It's made even creepier by forcing Noelle and Kris together while Noelle otherwise spends the chapter being very gay for Susie. Looking forward to seeing Toriel murder Napstablook or Undyne!
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Sep 20, 2021 16:48
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Saigyouji posted:Something that's interesting about the alt route is that Queen seems unaware that anything is wrong. She realises that Noelle seems tired, but other than that, she has apparently completely failed to notice that her mansion has been taken over by a megalomaniacal puppet.  The Queen just doesn't really seem to have much of a clue in general in spite of all the Big Data she gets, just generally failing to understand it (and the situation around her) and assuming she knows best anyway, culminating in her response to being told she's causing the gosh darn apocalypse being Oh drat I Did Not Know That. ...Actually, thinking about it, that's probably social commentary isn't it.
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Sep 20, 2021 16:53
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Brandfarlig posted:considering how hosed up this chapter already gets future chapters are sure to be... something. It's made even creepier by forcing Noelle and Kris together while Noelle otherwise spends the chapter being very gay for Susie. ACAB includes ghosts and fish ladies, Toriel! ...I hope that's not in bad taste. But I'm really wondering if B-Sides will be a thing in every chapter. It feels a lot harder to imagine how you'll push Toriel to murder...? Or at least, pushing her to the same degree we pushed Noelle that still ends with some kind of plausible deniability?
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Sep 20, 2021 16:54
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Meeko posted:
It also kind of goes with the theme of characters pretending to be smarter than they are, which indicates that whatever Kris is doing, they have no idea what they're doing.
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Sep 20, 2021 16:56
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He stole hussies talent and consumed it, that's also why Homestuck got terrible when toby left
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Sep 20, 2021 17:00
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"Oh drat I did not know that" is one of the funniest things Toby has written
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Sep 20, 2021 17:02
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Brandfarlig posted:considering how hosed up this chapter already gets future chapters are sure to be... something. It's made even creepier by forcing Noelle and Kris together while Noelle otherwise spends the chapter being very gay for Susie. I think folks overstate the (b-side stuff) romantic connotations of what goes on in the B-side route, like the shopkeeper and Noelle (at first) seem to read it in that light but very quickly it becomes clear that what we are gunning for is something else entirely. and when Susie checks in on her it is pretty heavily implied she is way more forward with her feelings towards Susie.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:03
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Brandfarlig posted:Or years of practice, experience and a good team. Magic blood is a poo poo explanation. A good team doesn't really work well as an explanation either when Undertale and the first chapter of deltarune were made with... no team.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:05
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Supremezero posted:A good team doesn't really work well as an explanation either when Undertale and the first chapter of deltarune were made with... no team. As far as the humor goes, and I don't wanna derail the thread into talking about Homestuck, but it's pretty clear a lot of his sensibilities are inspired by his time with it. Like, he for sure has a lot of influences and I think folks can be a little fast to draw connections but a lot of the delivery feels pretty familiar.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:09
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Saigyouji posted:Something that's interesting about the alt route is that Queen seems unaware that anything is wrong. She realises that Noelle seems tired, but other than that, she has apparently completely failed to notice that her mansion has been taken over by a megalomaniacal puppet. Pretty wild that in the alt route between all the messed up Noelle stuff still has comedic scenes around Queen not knowing what she's doing, and then arriving at the Castle Town, wondering where everyone else is, and the trashcan guy being the only survivor.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:10
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Oxyclean posted:ACAB includes ghosts and fish ladies, Toriel! I think we’d be more likely to get alternate routes every chapter if they were being released one by one, but since we’re getting the next three at once I don’t think it’s as likely we’ll have something like this for each one. While I still think at least one alternate route is likely I’m also skeptical that it’ll be the same thing twice, so I’m not convinced it’ll just be “push your ally into murder” again.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:13
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Bit of speculation about Ralsei, his creation and his relationship with Kris. And sorry if someone had the same idea, this thread is getting beefy. It's mentioned that Kris dabbled in the occult and we now know that they can open fountains. Plus they've been too dark world before. We also know that certain objects while in the dark world become the darkners, and that Ralsei is likely formed from the monster horns Kris wore. We also know that Kris desperately wants to be a monster. So what if Kris found a way into the dark world and saw that their horns became. Ralsei. And after seeing that this monster looked exactly like another member of the Dreemur family Kris attempted to shove their soul inside Ralsei hoping that this would allow them (Kris) to finally become the monster they always wanted to be. Only that's not how souls or darkners work, removing your soul doesn't let you become someone else, it just makes two separate beings. Plus darkners can't go too the light world without reverting back to the object they formed from. So things get all screwed up, and Kris is separated from their soul long enough that it develops enough of its own personality that it seeks out a vessel for itself. And so when the soul finally gets crammed back into Kris they are no longer one person but puppet and puppeteer, ones who hate each other. And as Kris was reminded by Spamton, a puppet with its strings cut isn't free but broken.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:28
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Gruckles posted:Pretty wild that in the alt route between all the messed up Noelle stuff still has comedic scenes around Queen not knowing what she's doing, and then arriving at the Castle Town, wondering where everyone else is, and the trashcan guy being the only survivor. That's also what it took for me to notice that after you wake up in the Librarby, if you examine the waste basket there, you'll note "This trash looks like it doesn't have any friends. You're not sure why you get this feeling about a trash can." Then Kris subsumes a bunch of stuff into their Ball of Junk, and when you revisit the castle town, Trashy will be there. Kris took the garbage bin from the computer room and threw it into the school supply closet because it seemed lonely. However you want to read everything, they're a good kid at heart.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:29
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Maybe he carried the junk in a trash can this time.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:42
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:official Tasque Manager design from the guest artist who designed her (and Sweet Cap'n Cakes) Oh poo poo, Nelnal designed Tasque Manager?  Their art is super good, I don't know why I didn't immediately recognize it!Flesnolk posted:Inborn talent. That doesn't explain as much as you'd think. Humans can learn a lot, and it's not like we were all born knowing how to play a piano, design a character, and write comedy. Just takes years and years of experience and practice.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:47
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I think this is the last time I'll effortpost for a while but the one scene that stuck with me the most in Deltarune so far wasn't Kris and Susie cementing their new friendship by saving each other from the King or Berdly getting snow graved, it was this scene This scene This loving scene     By this point you've asked Noelle to freeze every enemy you've come across, forced her to think that Kris wants to makes amends through romantic gestures, pushed her to kill a shopkeeper to get a powerful ring that Kris wants to apology buy but can't afford, nearly Proceeded her into an electrical field until she solved a puzzle for you, and dropped using Kris entirely to invade her thoughts to tell her that wanting to murder people is normal Here, she sees a bottomless pit with a puzzle and knows that Kris will Proceed her over the edge unless she solves it. She's scared but goes to the mouse hole and stands there trying to convince herself that the abuse you've piled on her is a good thing that will make her a better person and that she shouldn't focus on the fact that she's been dissociating in order to not breakdown entirely. She's able to push herself into killing again before straining to put on a smile and asking for more. Shortly thereafter she's given a ring that makes her mind hazy to the point that she initially doesn't recognize Berdly as anything other than the next target You force Kris to abuse her until their perspective changes and they can't see their oldest friend as anything but a tool to make the player's life easier. And that's what's happening here, you give Kris more freedom by doing good things and overwrite their personality by doing bad things to the point that Kris becomes the Chara to her Asriel. Deltarune is a story and you ruin it by treating it like a game This loving scene zetamind2000 fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Sep 22, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 17:52
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Pollyanna posted:Oh poo poo, Nelnal designed Tasque Manager? You don't get as good as he is at everything by practising. Maybe you can get to a level where you're turning out generic genre trash, but people who can actually make good things are born with it. Like Mozart looking at a page of sheet music for the first time as a kid and instantly being, well, Mozart.
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Sep 20, 2021 17:57
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Oxyclean posted:ACAB includes ghosts and fish ladies, Toriel! I first wrote it as "Looking forward to seeing Toriel murdering a cop" but then I reconsidered for just that reason. You can whine about cops to Alphys and she says something like "uh they're like entirely ornamental, who cares in this world" From what we've seen Undyne is the biggest problem the town has and that's because she won't stop benching cars or trying to fight trucks I think there will be something most if not every chapter in order to have that storyline not stagnate. I don't think every chapter is going to play out like alt chapter 2 but the soul/you will continue to demand evil acts and only get more proficient at enforcing your will. The Thorn Ring puts Trance on Noelle which seems to make her more susceptible to our commands. That is likely to come up for other party members as well. We already know there's a sword that puts the status on Kris Ash Rose posted:I think folks overstate the (b-side stuff) romantic connotations of what goes on in the B-side route, like the shopkeeper and Noelle (at first) seem to read it in that light but very quickly it becomes clear that what we are gunning for is something else entirely. and when Susie checks in on her it is pretty heavily implied she is way more forward with her feelings towards Susie. Absolutely, it seems more like mental domination than any kind of romance. But it's still incredibly creepy to force Noelle and Kris together so we can make Noelle our puppet. I just want people to be happy, damnit  Though I'm still going watch someone do the alt route or even play it myself eventually so I think that makes me a hypocrite. Brandfarlig fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Sep 20, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 17:59
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I really liked the character art in particular this time around. A ton of work went into all the animation and expressions and it shows.
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Sep 20, 2021 18:00
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Brandfarlig posted:Absolutely, it seems more like mental domination than any kind of romance. But it's still incredibly creepy to force Noelle and Kris together so we can make Noelle our puppet. I just want people to be happy, damnit I'm honestly not sure if it's forcing them together in a romantic sense - the ferris wheel dialogue is actually optional for the route, and Noelle comes out of it way more assertive about her interest in Susie. Still creepy though.
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Sep 20, 2021 18:03
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Zebia posted:There's a part when you're walking through the city with Noelle where you're talking and slowly spelling out December (I think). While you're walking you both get obscured by buildings in the foreground but you can still see their silhouette. Near the end Noelle's silhouette seemingly changes to a younger version of herself. Does anyone have a screenshot of that? And did Kris's silhouette change in that section at all? It's spr_noelle_young_silhouette_[0-3] and there isn't one for Kris that I can see, no. I didn't even know this was a thing. 
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Sep 20, 2021 18:06
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Just want to reiterate that Kris' soul and the player are not the same entity. In chapter 1, when Ralsei sends the player off to look after Susie, Kris still has their soul. This made explicit in the Susie vs. Lancer fight; the soul shows up for the bullet board, but it zooms in from the top right corner of the screen (where Kris is) and goes back there on Susie's turn. What exactly this means I cannot tell you, but Toby made a note to point it out during the stream, so I assume it means something and he wanted people to notice. If we make the (reasonable) assumption that the player exists an in-game entity, it is as more than just Kris' soul. I like the theory that if we are the villain, Susie, with her ability to defy the player, will be the hero.
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Sep 20, 2021 18:11
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Nothing necessarily new here, just fun information to remember in light of the chapter's revelations.   Was anybody else reminded of pulling the Needles in Mother 3 (in reverse) at the end?
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Sep 20, 2021 18:11
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