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Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

CPL593H posted:

That is a known phenomenon but I don't think that "most" is accurate.

Huh, you're right. looking it up it seems like most child predators that are caught and prosecuted say they were abused, but a lot of them are lying.

https://theconversation.com/child-sex-abuse-doesnt-create-paedophiles-60373

quote:

Others debunk the theory. A 2001 study, for example, combined self-reports of childhood abuse histories with polygraph tests for child sex offenders.

Before the polygraph test, 61% of adult offenders claimed to have been sexually abused as children, compared to 30% after the polygraph. This indicates that more sex offenders claim to have been sexually abused as children than actually have a history of abuse.

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HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?
I mean that said, polygraphs are easily fooled and unreliable and should not be taken as evidence of anything.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

HopperUK posted:

I mean that said, polygraphs are easily fooled and unreliable and should not be taken as evidence of anything.

They aren't saying the polygraph proved they were lying, they are saying after being interviewed under a polygraph they no longer claimed to have been molested themselves.

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Why would an ambulance be leaving the hospital?

Skwirl posted:

They aren't saying the polygraph proved they were lying, they are saying after being interviewed under a polygraph they no longer claimed to have been molested themselves.

Ah gotcha, I misread that a bit. Thanks.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice
I think the reverse needs to be accounted for, though. Do people who suffer sexual abuse at a young age disproportionately become offenders?

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

Phylodox posted:

I think the reverse needs to be accounted for, though. Do people who suffer sexual abuse at a young age disproportionately become offenders?

30% claim to have suffered it after the polygraph interview and somewhere between 5 and 15 percent of kids are molested, so probably?

catapede
Jul 1, 2018

Eatin' fish leaves
Gettin' strong

Phylodox posted:

I think the reverse needs to be accounted for, though. Do people who suffer sexual abuse at a young age disproportionately become offenders?

I feel the links provided so far cover that, and the answer is "no". Sexual offenders seem to have childhood assault rates that are on par with the national average in the US. If you were more likely to commit assault after being assaulted, then I think the numbers would be higher than 30%. I'm not much of a statistician, however.

This feels similar to people equating violent offenses to mental illness. Mental illness doesn't cause you to be violent, and a traumatic past doesn't make you more likely to cause trauma. I mentioned this in my last post, but the only time there seems to be a correlation between abused as a child and abusive as an adult are in extremely violent cases.

Here's the book I've read about this in, btw:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/224552.Why_Does_He_Do_That_

Edit:

Skwirl posted:

30% claim to have suffered it after the polygraph interview and somewhere between 5 and 15 percent of kids are molested, so probably?

It's 5-15% in one year, about 28% in their "lifetime" as a kid in the US.

Edit again: According to this:
https://victimsofcrime.org/child-sexual-abuse-statistics/#:~:text=During%20a%20one%2Dyear%20period,ages%20of%207%20and%2013.

quote:

During a one-year period in the U.S., 16% of youth ages 14 to 17 had been sexually victimized;
Over the course of their lifetime, 28% of U.S. youth ages 14 to 17 had been sexually victimized;

catapede fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Sep 19, 2021

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.
Yeah, I misread the article I linked to. It ends with this note

quote:

Our current understanding of the victim-offender cycle in child sexual abuse comes from studies based on interviews with incarcerated sex offenders or those in treatment programs, or self-report measures. These are inherently unreliable methods, which fail to get to the bottom of a sex offender’s victimisation history.

Another problem with these studies lies not with the offenders themselves, but with the researchers’ “expectancy biases”. Those interviewing sex offenders, for instance, may ask about childhood sexual abuse and note its presumed significance to the offender’s criminal history. They may end up putting more emphasis on this link than other (perhaps more causative) factors.

Third, experts estimate only one in 20 cases of child sexual abuse are ever reported. We are therefore missing huge swathes of the information.

Fourth, lost from this analysis are two core groups whose voices are essential to this dialogue if we are to ever truly understand the cycle of violence within child sexual abuse: the offenders who are never caught; and paedophiles who never offend against children. We know virtually nothing about either of these two groups.

Das Boo
Jun 9, 2011

There was a GHOST here.
It's gone now.
So not based on hard numbers, but just personal experience: Sexual abuse doesn't necessarily result in a sexual abuser, but it does seem more likely to result in an abuser, be it physical/emotional/psychological/etc. The opposite seems true too. I'm curious how those numbers would look if you widened the net a bit? (I mean, it would still be impossible to verify, but)

Like picking an example from my experiences, it went from generation to generation as sexual abuser > emotional abuser > physical abuser > sexual abuser. My guess is that each person is latching onto whatever means of control they can most easily exploit.

Of course, not excusing it. One of my parents was a cycle breaker, their siblings were not.

catapede
Jul 1, 2018

Eatin' fish leaves
Gettin' strong

Das Boo posted:

So not based on hard numbers, but just personal experience: Sexual abuse doesn't necessarily result in a sexual abuser, but it does seem more likely to result in an abuser, be it physical/emotional/psychological/etc. The opposite seems true too. I'm curious how those numbers would look if you widened the net a bit? (I mean, it would still be impossible to verify, but)

Like picking an example from my experiences, it went from generation to generation as sexual abuser > emotional abuser > physical abuser > sexual abuser. My guess is that each person is latching onto whatever means of control they can most easily exploit.

Of course, not excusing it. One of my parents was a cycle breaker, their siblings were not.

To add onto this, one thing that is prevalent among abusers is needing control.

But yeah, as Skwirl pointed out, data regarding sexual assault is overall unreliable for the reasons listed. Personally, I think male sexual assault is extremely under-reported, for instance.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010
The thing about Norm being a conservative talk show host in waiting thing is mostly accurate for two reasons

1) I distinctly remember him gushingly tweeting at Jordan Peterson for changing his life

2) He once said in a profile article that if people knew his personal beliefs his career would be dead.

Only wrinkle is that as a rule, the Fox crowd are usually failed comedians who sucked. A bunch of their TV personalities tried stand-up first.

Whereas Norm was pretty good at stand-up. Not that it excuses any of the foul poo poo.

El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Sep 20, 2021

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Only about 50% of incidences of childhood sexual abuse come from people with pedophilia (i.e. attraction to children). A lot of them, and I would say probably a lot more in the case of celebrities, come from abusers seeking easier targets, or those who just have the opportunity and abuse, often when they have other mental disorders. I wouldn't be surprised if pedophilia on its own probably leads to fewer cases than violent sexual tendencies do [this is speculation, for the obvious reason that only offenders get caught].

This study goes into some of the neurobiological factors involved, and points out a major flaw of the theory that sexual abuse leads to more abuse — most victims are female, but by far more perpetrators are male.
:nws: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4478390/ :nws:

[It's an NIH study, but nsfw as it contains drawn sketches of developing genitalia.]

Mob
May 7, 2002

Me reading your posts

CPL593H posted:

My advice is to not hang out with comedians after the show (except Ron Funches because he's a super nice laid back dude and if you like weed he can smoke an inhuman amount of it and will share it with you).

Probably not the best thread for declarative "all parasocial relationships are bad except this one" considering he literally tweeted "Chris Hardwick has always been good to me and my friends" before Chloe Dykstra replied and he deleted it

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

I understand that it may not be enough as an entire response, but isn't deleting a tweet like that fundamentally the right first step? Unless he went on to be dishonest about the situation or something, that sounds like he read what she said and realized he had made a bad call.

I can see how it would be better to also publicly acknowledge why that happened or whatever, but tons of people have done the thing in his tweet and had far worse responses when called out.

Mob
May 7, 2002

Me reading your posts

He just acts like it never happened and(like everyone else in that circle) continues to associate with Chris and appear on podcasts/etc. I'm just saying don't let other celebs/comics known shittiness blind you when it comes to your faves.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

Ok sorry, the continuing to associate with him and all that is the part that I was not aware of or thinking about. Because I kinda forgot how hard the Chris Hardwick stuff got disappeared.

Mob
May 7, 2002

Me reading your posts

Martman posted:

Because I kinda forgot how hard the Chris Hardwick stuff got disappeared.

Yeah I'll freely admit it sticks in my craw but that Hearst Money has like a 150-year history of loving poo poo up

RevKrule
Jul 9, 2001

Thrilling the forums since 2001

As a possible future father, maybe someday, Chris Hardwick would never do anything untoward to a woman.

Alan Smithee
Jan 4, 2005


A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...
"As a father to a daughter, brother to a sister, son to a mother-"

whos that broooown
Dec 10, 2009

2024 Comeback Poster of the Year
John Oliver did a shout out to Norm at the Emmys tonight which was kinda disappointing.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

I don’t think the tweets are mainstream yet. I haven’t heard anyone talk about them besides here on sa

Mr.Chill
Aug 29, 2006
Just wanted to point out - pages and pages about Dusk Till Dawn and the toe sucking scene and no one mentioned that long, deeply uncomfortable subplot in the first half of the movie about sexualizing a mentioned 14 year old.

Alhazred
Feb 16, 2011




Mr.Chill posted:

Just wanted to point out - pages and pages about Dusk Till Dawn and the toe sucking scene and no one mentioned that long, deeply uncomfortable subplot in the first half of the movie about sexualizing a mentioned 14 year old.
But that's meant to be deeply uncomfortable though. Tarantino's character sexualising her is not portrayed as a good thing.

King Vidiot
Feb 17, 2007

You think you can take me at Satan's Hollow? Go 'head on!
I've seen From Dusk Til Dawn a few times and I don't remember Juliette Lewis's character ever being given an age. I just assumed she was late teens. Which doesn't make Richie any less creepy but that's the whole point of his character.

Coffee And Pie
Nov 4, 2010

"Blah-sum"?
More like "Blawesome"
He literally brutally murders a Texas ranger, a liquor store clerks, and an innocent woman for no reason in the first 20 minutes, he’s literally a deranged psychopath.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFIFOMzyg8I

SunshineDanceParty
Feb 7, 2006

One Road. Two Friends. One Ass.

CelticPredator posted:

I don’t think the tweets are mainstream yet. I haven’t heard anyone talk about them besides here on sa

Yeah the Norm stuff has been around for a bit but it's never gotten an ignition. I first heard about it during the Barr and CK defense.

CPL593H
Oct 28, 2009

I know what you did last summer, and frankly I am displeased.

Mob posted:

Probably not the best thread for declarative "all parasocial relationships are bad except this one" considering he literally tweeted "Chris Hardwick has always been good to me and my friends" before Chloe Dykstra replied and he deleted it

Did you mean Robert Kelly or Ron Funches? I know Robert Kelly is a Chris Hardwick defender because he said something about that to someone else that night. Ron Funches would be news. I don't go on or pay attention to Twitter because it's a cesspool.

Precambrian
Apr 30, 2008

CPL593H posted:

Did you mean Robert Kelly or Ron Funches? I know Robert Kelly is a Chris Hardwick defender because he said something about that to someone else that night. Ron Funches would be news. I don't go on or pay attention to Twitter because it's a cesspool.

Here's Chloe Dykstra replying to the now-deleted tweet.

https://twitter.com/skydart/status/1082803281728925696

Alan Smithee
Jan 4, 2005


A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...
https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1440716841043726336

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.

Mr.Chill posted:

Just wanted to point out - pages and pages about Dusk Till Dawn and the toe sucking scene and no one mentioned that long, deeply uncomfortable subplot in the first half of the movie about sexualizing a mentioned 14 year old.

She isn't 14, I'm not even sure if she's a teen. The brother is supposed to be younger than her so what's he, like 10?

It's also played as creepy and it's clear that he's a gross character. He brutalized the woman at the start.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.
Yeah Quentin Tarantino's character is not supposed to be sympathetic in any way.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
I thought she was supposed to be underage because of Clooneys final words to her?

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.
She's definitely underage.

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Skwirl posted:

Yeah Quentin Tarantino's character is not supposed to be sympathetic in any way.

If Tarantino didn’t want the audience to agree with or sympathize with that character then why play him in a film? Why is he featured on the poster? Why write a character like that at all? /s

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013

by Fluffdaddy
Tarantino does also introduce the child actress with a foot shot in Once Upon... so I don't know how 100% necessary it is to give him the benefit of the doubt

edogawa rando
Mar 20, 2007

I think my mass effect is broken

Skwirl posted:

Yeah Quentin Tarantino's character is not supposed to be sympathetic in any way.

Yeah, for real. Some people in this thread really need to learn the difference between portrayal and endorsement.

Steven Spielberg once made a movie about the holocaust, in which Ralph Fiennes played a nazi. Somebody call Nuremburg because we got another two that need to go on trial, post haste!

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!
#NotMySteven

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

Ok Comboomer posted:

If Tarantino didn’t want the audience to agree with or sympathize with that character then why play him in a film? Why is he featured on the poster? Why write a character like that at all? /s

this is basically one step away from the "discussion is endorsement"

sometimes in fiction characters are mean, brutal, abusive, and unsympathetic. The alternative is to abolish any fictional representation of bad people.

edogawa rando
Mar 20, 2007

I think my mass effect is broken

pentyne posted:

this is basically one step away from the "discussion is endorsement"

sometimes in fiction characters are mean, brutal, abusive, and unsympathetic. The alternative is to abolish any fictional representation of bad people.

I'm pretty sure that was their point.

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well why not
Feb 10, 2009




pentyne posted:

this is basically one step away from the "discussion is endorsement"

sometimes in fiction characters are mean, brutal, abusive, and unsympathetic. The alternative is to abolish any fictional representation of bad people.

I have spoken, in real life, to someone who said "it's time to tell new stories that aren't about horrible old men in the past".

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