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AnEdgelord posted:loving lol, I don't even know why you would need a followup to Heretics and Chapterhouse. They ended in a pretty conclusive place with Duncan finally whole, free from control and able to make his own destiny again. There are some loose ends but there are always some loose ends if you are writing history, and including that in your fake history just makes it all the more believable. Isn’t Idahos liberation brought about by the aforementioned gently caress-magic?
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Sep 28, 2021 01:32
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I saw this in IMAX, well worth it imo. The epic scale of thing would be diminished in anything less. I liked it. It definitely felt like a "Part One" kind of a film, and by that I mean that it feels like a good portion of the film is introducing the viewer to the film, although the exposition is done pretty well so it always remains interesting rather than tedious. The visuals are top notch, it's a beautifully shot film, and people complaining about the color ought to have crayons shot through their eyes. It's incredibly atmospheric. And I loved the effects for The Voice I haven't read the books so I made the mistake of going on a wikidive and boy howdy, do the books take a left turn, lol. RestingB1tchFace posted:A FULL MONTH BEFORE THE US RELEASE!? WHAT THE gently caress!? Alan Smithee posted:i want to watch Dunc goddamnit why do you euros get it first I'm trying really hard not to gloat, but I'm feeding of the schadenfreude like Harkonnen eats dinner. See it as payback for the 40 years when the rest of the world had to wait months for their premiere
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Sep 28, 2021 01:35
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AlternateAccount posted:Isn’t Idahos liberation brought about by the aforementioned gently caress-magic? yes but its because he was given masculine counter-gently caress magic that mind controls the women he has sex with and he uses it on one of the Honored Matres which causes them to mind control each other and awakens all of his repressed ghola memories from every previous life
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Sep 28, 2021 02:02
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AnEdgelord posted:yes but its because he was given masculine counter-gently caress magic that mind controls the women he has sex with and he uses it on one of the Honored Matres which causes them to mind control each other and awakens all of his repressed ghola memories from every previous life It’s so terrible it loops around.
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Sep 28, 2021 02:25
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Kurzon posted:"Villeneuve" (pronounced vil-nuv) means "new town" in French. See also: Isaac Newton
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Sep 28, 2021 09:23
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D U N C: masculine counter-gently caress magic
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Sep 28, 2021 17:56
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it's just kegels
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Sep 28, 2021 18:04
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Seen in a theater with about 6 people including me and the wife, I loved it. I had seen Lynch's ages ago as well as the mini-series when it first came out, and read the first half or so of the first book, but had no trouble following the plot; I've seen complaints online that non-Dune readers/viewers would have issues following but I have no idea what could be unclear. One of my favourite parts: the Voice sound effects, especially how it's kinda crappy and understated when Paul first uses it to get his mother to pass him the water while sounding freaky and otherwordly, with the bass up to 11 on the Ornithopther; I think the point was to show the difference between an untrained, half-assed Voice vs. the real deal
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Sep 30, 2021 01:19
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canepazzo posted:Seen in a theater with about 6 people including me and the wife, I loved it. I had seen Lynch's ages ago as well as the mini-series when it first came out, and read the first half or so of the first book, but had no trouble following the plot; I've seen complaints online that non-Dune readers/viewers would have issues following but I have no idea what could be unclear. Yeah, the Voice stuff was cool, but I kind of missed the effect where you saw Paul moving his lips silently, and then the Voice blowing out the speakers half a second later. They did that for the first time at the table, but the rest didn't have it.
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Sep 30, 2021 05:53
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https://twitter.com/70sscifi/status/1443476430634070017
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Sep 30, 2021 08:29
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Just got around to seeing it myself and was very happy with it. First cinema visit in about two years now and very much worth the experience. They really nailed the aesthetics, particularly in the architecture. Everything feels like an ancient alien ruin, and yet like it still could've been built by and for humans. I'd been worried that it might've to lean too hard on plain exposition, but what exposition was there was included smoothly enough, and the movie was willing to just let most things stand on their own otherwise. The one thing I think could've been done a little better was Paul's apocalyptic vision. Perhaps it was just my particular cinema, but the sound mixing throughout his episode was pretty poor to the point where I don't think I even would've gotten the point of it without book foreknowledge. The visuals of his vision seemed a little weak, too, particularly compared to the powerful scale of the movie's visuals otherwise. Just one skirmish and one little pile o' corpses didn't really convey the immense scale of the Jihad.
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Sep 30, 2021 11:58
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Perestroika posted:The one thing I think could've been done a little better was Paul's apocalyptic vision. Perhaps it was just my particular cinema, but the sound mixing throughout his episode was pretty poor to the point where I don't think I even would've gotten the point of it without book foreknowledge. The visuals of his vision seemed a little weak, too, particularly compared to the powerful scale of the movie's visuals otherwise. Just one skirmish and one little pile o' corpses didn't really convey the immense scale of the Jihad. Do you mean you couldn't understand what was being said? I'm so used to having subtitles in everything I watch, but I can imagine some scenes in this movie might have been hard to understand without subtitles. Favourite subtitle ever in a movie: having 'the astral plane' in Black panther being consistently translated in dutch as 'the space aircraft'. Towards the end of the movie half the audience would be giggling whenever it came up.
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Sep 30, 2021 14:31
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kanonvandekempen posted:Do you mean you couldn't understand what was being said? I'm so used to having subtitles in everything I watch, but I can imagine some scenes in this movie might have been hard to understand without subtitles. Yeah, I literally couldn't audibly discern what he was saying up until the very end when he went "somebody help me" or something.
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Sep 30, 2021 14:57
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the baron looks so happy 
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Sep 30, 2021 20:05
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So I just finished God Emperor. Are Heretics and Chapterhouse any good, or are they at least interesting? I'm weighing continuing the series vs. reading something else entirely. God Emperor ends much more conclusively than any book in the series so it seems like Herbert himself was sorta done at that point
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Oct 1, 2021 03:44
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Cognac McCarthy posted:So I just finished God Emperor. Are Heretics and Chapterhouse any good, or are they at least interesting? I'm weighing continuing the series vs. reading something else entirely. God Emperor ends much more conclusively than any book in the series so it seems like Herbert himself was sorta done at that point Heretics convinced me not to read Chapterhouse.
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Oct 1, 2021 04:03
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Cognac McCarthy posted:So I just finished God Emperor. Are Heretics and Chapterhouse any good, or are they at least interesting? I'm weighing continuing the series vs. reading something else entirely. God Emperor ends much more conclusively than any book in the series so it seems like Herbert himself was sorta done at that point https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/heresies-of-dune/ posted:Herbert’s last Dune novels are not for the weak. Written quickly while the IRS hounded the author for unpaid taxes, their plots tend toward the baroque, with major characters respawned ceaselessly, often as clones. Impatient with the subtle parables of his first book, Herbert let his caustic views bleed onto the page. In Book 5, the word liberal, used in a context entirely unrelated to politics, is enough to set the novel’s hero off. She lives 25,000 years in the future, yet just hearing someone say “liberal” puts her in mind of the 20th century and “how much viciousness lay concealed in that word” — “how much secret ego demanding to feel superior.” “Liberal bigots are the ones to trouble me the most,” another character opines. “Liberal governments always develop into aristocracies.” I know we hate some libs around here ourselves but uh, those books aren't doing it for the good reasons
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Oct 1, 2021 04:26
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I enjoyed them but I listened to them on audiobook at work and it was very amusing just how relentlessly horny they were if nothing else. Plus I think it actually gives some decent closure to Duncan's character. One thing that did bother me though, in a way entirely unrelated to horniness or politics, was that the the two books focus on both the Bene Gesserit order and Bene Tleilax society with a lot more time being spent on the Bene Gesserit. The reason this bothers me is that the Tleilaxu are one thousand times more interesting than the Bene Gesserit ever could be, with their near total mastery of genetic engineering and secret religion, and they're basically relegated to a b-plot so we can have more Bene Gesserit workplace politics.
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Oct 1, 2021 04:42
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Wait, are you telling me the guy who wrote extensive justification for how Paul's daughter was actually a several millennia-old consciousness inside the body of a prepubescent girl so it's actually okay for her to marry an adult man and procreate was a libertarian?
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Oct 1, 2021 05:01
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Baron von Eevl posted:Wait, are you telling me the guy who wrote extensive justification for how Paul's daughter was actually a several millennia-old consciousness inside the body of a prepubescent girl so it's actually okay for her to marry an adult man and procreate was a libertarian? Honestly, if you depict feudal aristocracy without someone getting married at puberty to someone older than them, you're being dishonest about what feudalism was. Hell, there were couples affianced before either was even weaned. Technically, however, Ghanima married her brother (in a purely symbolic marriage intended to make sure that no other great house established a claim to the throne via Ghanima). Ghanima then becomes Empress, with Farad'n as her personal concubine. I'm not sure about the age gap between her and Farad'n, but we are put off by age gaps because the gap creates a destructive and unhealthy power imbalance in the relationship, uh, the imbalance was not in that direction, though not in a manner we would ever want to create. Nor really would the characters, but the arrangement allowed Leto II to control and repurpose the breeding program and also secure the loyalty of the Sardaukar, and that reflects the real motivation behind these sorts of marriages: power, not ethics or mutual happiness and support. And from his own position of idealizing heterocentric monogamy, this was also Herbert's critique. Ghanima and Farrad'n do not get to choose their partner nor enjoy official matrimony due to politics, although like Paul and Chani and Leto and Jessica, they still get Herbert's ultimate reward for virtue: de facto heterosexual monogamy. With a little irony that might count as a feminist gesture in this extremely conscribed context, in that the man is this time the "concubine." Anyhow, what I mean is that I don't think Herbert was looking for an excuse to shack up a young woman and an older man; he was critical of the events he depicted, just from a very different perspective than ours. e: in case anyone is interested, I checked and Farad'n is 11 years older than Ghanima, being born in 10198 AG, while the twins were born in 10209 AG. The unfortunate fact is that this matters very little in an aristocratic context. The, uh, rule by "the best" did not in fact send its best. e2: so I was thinking "okay, but how old was she when they married," and this timeline sucks. Leto II ascends to the throne in 10219 AG. That would make him, and his sister at marriage... ten years old? Big yikes, but uh, I don't think that matches how the books depict the characters, who I imagined as at least teenagers. Like that would require Leto II to be depicted as prepubescent and it's been awhile but... I think the timeline is just straight up wrong? Or did I just edit that out of my memory as extremely stupid? e3: like Chani is supposed to be the dominant force in her mind protecting her from becoming like Alia, and I just cannot imagine her mother in her head being at all alright with that. Granted, Alia initially proposes that marriage and Ghanima's reaction is "fine, I'll just kill him on the wedding night" so um... yeah anyhow I think it's time to stop thinking about this. e4: okay, so the timeline from the Dune Encyclopedia is somewhat different, keeping Leto II and Ghanima's bizzare youth but making Farad'n only 19 at the time, having been born in 10200 AG. that doesn't really make things much better (it's only two years difference), but it at least positions both Ghanima and Farrad'n as both kids forced into this by circumstances. I'll let others decide if that "helps." Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 05:26
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I have to be honest when I think “went off the rails” I think heretics but every time I see discussions of the series online I’m like oh right it was all very weird That said I now have multiple friends who have seen the movie and the miniseries and liked the series better and I feel like this must be some kind of practical joke
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Oct 1, 2021 09:31
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Saw the movie in IMAX and absolutely loved it, I will probably see it in cinema again. Standout scene for me was the sardukar getting blessed by presumably their priests? It was so weird and metal
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Oct 1, 2021 09:51
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Hodgepodge posted:Honestly, if you depict feudal aristocracy without someone getting married at puberty to someone older than them, you're being dishonest about what feudalism was. Hell, there were couples affianced before either was even weaned. I mean, this is really enough on the subject, buuuuuuut since the  has been opened already....The thing to absolutely keep in the forefront of your mind when dealing with an aristocratic society as depicted in Dune ( toned down though it is ) is that marriage is not, ever, at any point, about love. Love is a nice bonus, if you can get it, but marriage for an aristocratic society is about two things: 1) Securing political/economic alliances and 2) Breeding That's it. A woman's worth in a marriage is measured in her dowry, and her fertility. I.e. age. Basically, the younger the better, to the point where economic/political benefits from the marriage can be rendered secondary depending on her fertility. Disgusting as it is, the longer a bride is fertile, the greater the chance of giving birth to an heir that will survive, so to maximize that time and the chance of an heir? The optimal time to get betrothed is before the bride has had her first menstrual cycle, with marriage following as soon after her first period as practial. Welcome to the utterly hosed up world of the nobility. Now, to be fair, historically marriages were not, as a rule, consummated right away, and some care was taken by most to avoid a 13-year-old married to a 50-year-old. Menstruation also as a rule began later in life than today, due to differences in diet and healthcare. Parents, then as now, noble or not, wanted what was best for their children, but the constraints and dynamics of living in an aristocratic society invariable led them to some really hosed up results, since 'the best for our children' ( especially first-born sons/daughters ) involved finding a match that would cement an existing alliance or be the beginning of a new one, with the minimum possible spousal abuse and marital rape. With all that in mind, the marriages as depicted in the Dune books are, frankly, far, far better than most could hope for, given the society depicted. The only one who could be said to be 'losing' is Irulan, since she won't be the mother of Paul's heirs. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 10:24
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One mitigating factor is that aristocratic marriages were not typically ones you could get away with a lot of spousal abuse in. The recent "gilded cage" experienced by middle class Victorian women was not a problem for aristocratic women because their marriage contracts guaranteed far more rights within the marriage than a middle class woman could expect to enjoy. Also all her relatives would by nature be powerful people who get away with murder on a casual basis. (Due to the response to a demographic crisis on the aristocracy, few males being born for about a generation by what appears to be random chance, the poor in England were unable to be married except through common law at the outset of the Victorian period. This excluded lower class women from the confines of the "gilded cage" as well.) e: I think it was a Marxist historian who pointed out that a lot of medieval alliances were predicated on sexual reproduction being a form of communication which does not require speaking a common language. "Love matches" were considered highly desirable- the same way having a job you love is now considered desirable. Ie, nice if you can get it, but you're lucky if your spouse even speaks your language or vis versa. This is an example of why Marxists praise capitalism as an improvement in nearly every way over feudalism. This was what kings and queens had to put up with. This was as good as it got. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 10:36
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Hodgepodge posted:e4: okay, so the timeline from the Dune Encyclopedia is somewhat different, keeping Leto II and Ghanima's bizzare youth but making Farad'n only 19 at the time, having been born in 10200 AG. that doesn't really make things much better (it's only two years difference), but it at least positions both Ghanima and Farrad'n as both kids forced into this by circumstances. I'll let others decide if that "helps." It doesn't. I mean mostly it was a joke about libertarians wanting to abolish age of consent but also "hey, the 11 year old wanted it and since she has all the power it's okay" nooooooooope
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Oct 1, 2021 11:00
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Baron von Eevl posted:It doesn't. I mean mostly it was a joke about libertarians wanting to abolish age of consent but also "hey, the 11 year old wanted it and since she has all the power it's okay" nooooooooope Haha, yeah. It's a fictional example of a practice was in no way "all right," and was at best an adaptation to circumstances that no one was happy with. As TLM3101 said, though, there was an expectation that you not consumate the marriage right away for the most part. Definitely not before puberty, which in a medieval context came much later than it does today. On the other hand, Henry VIII broke from the Catholic Church, causing generations of civil strife and, through the ideology he created to justify this, caused a full blow civil war several generations later, then went through five more wives (some executed, at least one he never even slept with and divorced unconsummated) trying to have a son before settling on his daughters, one being his heir Elizabeth, possibly the best monarch in British history (depending on your benchmark). e: the really depressing fact is that an aristocrat who wanted to be a pedo didn't need to resort to marriage to do it. Within the aristocracy, though, the only case I've encountered of sexual abuse of a child resulted in an army showing up at the estate of the pedo in question, and that army was just as horrified as we would be today. (Actually somewhat more horrified as I recall, as this was a very literal offense before God in their eyes and the abuse was considered to have damaged the soul of the child in a manner that was less understood and therefore terrifying to them. It was unclear if it would be possible to save the child's soul due to the observed effects of the abuse, a notion that was deeply unsettling to their world view and empathy for the child whose damnation they felt powerless to prevent. They were Not Happy). Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 11:08
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Hodgepodge posted:Haha, yeah. It's a fictional example of a practice was in no way "all right," and was at best an adaptation to circumstances that no one was happy with. As TLM3101 said, though, there was an expectation that you not consumate the marriage right away for the most part. Definitely not before puberty, which in a medieval context came much later than it does today. Which, to be clear, does not make it anywhere near 'okay' by our standards, but it's... better. Or, slightly less bad. There was also an understanding that 'physically capable of having children' isn't the same as 'having children is a good idea'. Still, by the age of 16, and certainly by 18, most royal women could definitely expect to be married and having to perform 'marital duties'. Hodgepodge posted:On the other hand, Henry VIII broke from the Catholic Church, causing generations of civil strife and, through the ideology he created to justify this, caused a full blow civil war several generations later, then went through five more wives (some executed, at least one he never even slept with and divorced unconsummated) trying to have a son before settling on his daughters, one being his heir Elizabeth, possibly the best monarch in British history (depending on your benchmark). Which just goes to show the bizarre loving lengths the nobility would go to in order to secure a male heir. Not to mention that if Henry had had a son who lived, one of the most glorified monarchs in history would instead have been married off to secure a political alliance, destined to play second fiddle to someone with much less talent than herself, before quite possibly dying in childbirth. Aristocracies loving suck. Hodgepodge posted:e: the really depressing fact is that an aristocrat who wanted to be a pedo didn't need to resort to marriage to do it. Within the aristocracy, though, the only case I've encountered of sexual abuse of a child resulted in an army showing up at the estate of the pedo in question, and that army was just as horrified as we would be today. (Actually somewhat more horrified as I recall, as this was a very literal offense before God in their eyes and the abuse was considered to have damaged the soul of the child in a manner that was less understood and therefore terrifying to them. It was unclear if it would be possible to save the child's soul due to the observed effects of the abuse, a notion that was deeply unsettling to their world view and empathy for the child whose damnation they felt powerless to prevent. They were Not Happy). That would be old Gilles de Rais, no? I think Erzsbet Bathory miiiight be in that category too, given the ( alleged ) age of some of her victims. But yeah. Depending on your wealth and precise place in the nobility, you could pretty much do as you pleased if you were "reasonably discrete" - imagine I put those in massive quotes - about it. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 14:23
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Cognac McCarthy posted:So I just finished God Emperor. Are Heretics and Chapterhouse any good, or are they at least interesting? I'm weighing continuing the series vs. reading something else entirely. God Emperor ends much more conclusively than any book in the series so it seems like Herbert himself was sorta done at that point I never finished Chapterhouse if that tells you anything. I did read through Heretics but it's pretty bad at points. It's an attempt have more like uh assassination/plans within plans/espionage kind of stuff going on like in the original book but also introduces a faction called the Honored Matres that are like the Bene Jesserit except their entire gimmick is loving a lot and sexual domination also you know they're evil because they all wear red dresses with a dragon print on it. Honestly it starts out promisingly but by the end it was really stupid.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:35
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TLM3101 posted:That would be old Gilles de Rais, no? I think Erzsbet Bathory miiiight be in that category too, given the ( alleged ) age of some of her victims. But yeah. Depending on your wealth and precise place in the nobility, you could pretty much do as you pleased if you were "reasonably discrete" - imagine I put those in massive quotes - about it. Unfortunately, the book is packed away at a friend's and I can't check, but I don't think so. There were no murders involved that I recall. It was awhile back, but to my recollection it was a couple abusing their adopted niece, and perhaps one or two other children. It was the obvious effect on the child (including things we'd be understanding of, if horrified by, like open lewdness) that was particularly distressing. It called into question whether it was possible to save the child's soul, in the Christian sense, and that is a thing that should not be possible in a Christian worldview. Cthulhu could have emerged from that estate and started eating the army and that would have easily fit into their notion of reality. The damage done by prolonged sexual abuse was far more horrifying- it raised the possibility that a human could be so evil, they could desecrate a child in a manner that would force God to condemn the child's soul to hell before that child even developed free will. Like lots of child abuse happened, but doing so openly to prepubescent children was not something anyone, in any society that I am aware of, has been able to condone in any culture or period of history, without being propped up by some foreign power (hi America). And as you've been pointing out, even when someone was married young, this was not carte blanche for someone to do whatever they wanted with a partner who was not yet considered an adult. Henry spurned the literal representation of God on Earth, but sexual interaction with people recognized as children was the sort of thing you made up about Roman Emperors to slander them.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:51
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Neo Rasa posted:I never finished Chapterhouse if that tells you anything. I did read through Heretics but it's pretty bad at points. It's an attempt have more like uh assassination/plans within plans/espionage kind of stuff going on like in the original book but also introduces a faction called the Honored Matres that are like the Bene Jesserit except their entire gimmick is loving a lot and sexual domination also you know they're evil because they all wear red dresses with a dragon print on it. Honestly it starts out promisingly but by the end it was really stupid. I kind of found the books sympathetic the Matres. The Bene Gessirit characters, for example, don't condemn them, but rather want to merge their organizations (with themselves at the helm of course). And the reason they're so pissed off is very, very understandable (the tanks the Tleilaxu used for all their technology turned out to be all that is left of their society's women), even if they have themselves forgotten it. To me, this implies a religious basis for their power over men that preceded their weird sex stuff. Facing something like that, to me it's understandable that men would have deferred to women at that point. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 15:05
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 Libertarians have entered the thread.
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Oct 1, 2021 17:10
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Arglebargle III posted:
what have i become??? oh wait, it's just sandtrout attatching to my body. that's fine right?
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Oct 1, 2021 17:17
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Arglebargle III posted:
Ironically, my deep dive into the history and socio-politics of aristocracies/feudal societies was originally spurred on specifically to point out that what Libertarians want is a throwback to that kind of society, just with the serial numbers filed off, because they all imagine that they will be part of the aristocracy and not the 98 % of the population forced into subsistence farming. 
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Oct 2, 2021 03:49
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paging cyrano to the dunc thread
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Oct 2, 2021 03:51
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the phrase "face dancer ahegao" just occured to me. i will not google it. fear is the mind killer. some things are better mind killers. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 2, 2021 06:33
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Hodgepodge posted:the phrase "face dancer ahegao" just occured to me. i will not google it. fear is the mind killer. some things are better mind killers. 
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Oct 2, 2021 07:33
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The bene gesserit also use sex to manipulate/control as early as the first book, the matres just perfected the techniques supposedly I'd say skip heretics & Chapterhouse
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Oct 3, 2021 05:58
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God Emperor is the end of the last surviving character from Dune Messiah.
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Oct 3, 2021 06:04
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Some high profile Dune cosplay in the news today.  C- on the stillsuit but the weird vibe is there.
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Oct 3, 2021 06:20
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That's a pretty rad outfit ngl
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Oct 3, 2021 09:14
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