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Combat Pretzel posted:Can I build over these steep waterfalls at the southern edge of the map? Satisfactory Calculator says there's a good margin to the actual world border. It'd make for a good railway route. Yes, particularly if you're talking about the waterfalls in the south-west corner. The death edge isn't until the island on the other side of the falls. fezball posted:If you look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecRcxbQxqYo&t=56s you can see two different types of signal, so I'd expect Factorio style chain signals. If it turns out to be nothing more than a clone of Factorio's train signals I'm gonna be real disappointed. I think a more high-level / interesting design would be totally possible for this game, and also I don't think Factorio's system where a signals are based on the rail segment is good for Satisfactory. Rail segments are super variable, junctions don't work the same. And in general, if they can't figure out how to put their own take on systems like that other than copying what Factorio does, I'd prefer that they didn't at all. edit: or if it's Factorio's system, it better be Factorio chain signals but with fixes for the small issues that factorio's signals have (particularly the left-side-vs-right-side thing that causes factorio train to almost universally be paired 1-way track layouts) Klyith fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Oct 2, 2021 |
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Oct 2, 2021 03:50
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It’s trains. There’s not a whole lot of new territory to tread.
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Oct 2, 2021 03:56
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TK-42-1 posted:It’s trains. There’s not a whole lot of new territory to tread. there is a shitload more to train signalling than factorio does, read some wikipedia if you feel like losing a few hours. factorio is like the late 1800s tech. But implementing it in a comprehensible, easy to use manner is real hard. At some point you either are making a Train Tycoon sim game where dispatching & signalling trains *is* the game, or a different game that happens to have trains. If the trains are not the central gameplay, why not just background it and have the trains themselves figure it out? but like at the basic level factorio fails at train signals and I hope they at least don't repeat that mistake.
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Oct 2, 2021 04:36
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Ottd move from chain signals to "path" signals years ago. https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Manual/Signals#path-signals I don't know why factorio didn't switch to path signals at the time that they upgraded the train pathfinding. And the Satisfactory devs seem to be opposed to any real creativity in their design.
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Oct 2, 2021 11:13
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IDK, they will be allowing intentional clipping for most object types with Update 5, because people were already using it creatively with tricks.
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Oct 2, 2021 12:19
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I wonder if trains can crash if you run two train tracks across each other, or if it’s just when the game detects a head on collision
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Oct 2, 2021 13:19
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ymgve posted:I wonder if trains can crash if you run two train tracks across each other, or if it’s just when the game detects a head on collision Probably not, detecting crashes in a realistic way would want physics on but that's CPU load they need to avoid. Detecting that two trains are on the same segment of track is very simple. VictualSquid posted:And the Satisfactory devs seem to be opposed to any real creativity in their design.
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Oct 2, 2021 13:51
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More importantly, what about train-truck collisions? (Train-train collisions should definitely be possible to handle even for trains that are unloaded from the general physics simulation, if you just give a simple bounding box to all the cars and intersect them. Then turn on real physics if a collision does happen to make sure things fall as they should.)
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Oct 2, 2021 14:25
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I'd wager this game would probably benefit from Unreal 5's Nanite stuff in regards to environment. I wonder if they'll ever consider moving onto it (considering the work required), when it releases.
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Oct 2, 2021 16:20
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I haven't built a train yet in update 4 so I'm not sure which parts are new and what's already in, but have they said anything about a dynamic model for the points? It's a bit weird that there's a switch for setting them but there's nothing on the rail itself that changes, so the train wheels clip through the rail. I know it's a really small thing and just cosmetic but it's kind of funny that they only reluctantly added soft clearance to let you clip a conveyor through a building but there's unavoidable clipping in normal use of rails.
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Oct 2, 2021 16:28
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Satisfactory gets the best bugs when you use mods in multiplayer. All praise our giant chainsaw sky god.
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Oct 3, 2021 18:13
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Hahaha I love that skybox bug.
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Oct 3, 2021 20:04
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I’m building our steel factory right now (convinced a friend to join me). Currently we’re just making steel off one pure iron node but I might try and bring more over just to make production faster. What ratio of pipes:beams should I aim for?
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Oct 4, 2021 03:36
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You want beams for belts, as well as for encased beams. Steel pipes are for Hypertubes and heavy frames mainly
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Oct 4, 2021 04:20
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I found the alt recipe for encased tubes so that should help that out a bit. I’ll have to figure out exactly how to set all this up soon
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Oct 4, 2021 04:30
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Thumbtacks posted:I found the alt recipe for encased tubes so that should help that out a bit. I’ll have to figure out exactly how to set all this up soon You’ll eventually want more than 240/m of Iron converting to Steel Ingots, which you’ll get if you grind up to Miner IIs and immediately upgrade your pure iron. That’ll be enough to get basic production of steel-using elevator parts and surplus for building up/feeding milestones Set poo poo up to fill up some containers and then go figure out oil. Remember to bring plenty of copper sheeting with you for pipes! Oil is probably 1-2km from whichever start vicinity you picked, if you’re beaconing found deposits for later use (and you should, when eventually you discover what a map is they will show up as icons there) there will almost surely be some stuff on the way.
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Oct 4, 2021 05:29
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gently caress me oil is confusing refineries are the devil
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Oct 4, 2021 11:18
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Belts are always the bottleneck early on. Doesn't matter how much you overclock your miners when your crappy belts can only move 120 ore/min anyway.
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Oct 5, 2021 16:32
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yea honestly the very early part of satisfactory really feels bad compared to sae the same in factorio because you have a number of ways of trying to get around the problems of slow belt throughput in factorio by using inserters and various tricks to get more out of your belts, but you don't have the same ability push through problems in the early moments of satisfactory.
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Oct 5, 2021 16:39
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I thought this load balancing stuff using mergers and splitters helps dealing with this, since you can run multiple belts. Then again, I forgot at what tier I got those.
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Oct 5, 2021 16:44
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Your rate limit is the throughput of the initial belt segment between the miner and the splitter, there’s no way to take items out of a machine’s output hopper faster than the belt coming out of it
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Oct 5, 2021 16:53
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You still only have one output port from each miner. It would be nice if you could put a splitter directly on a machine's output and it would feed it at unlimited speed. That would fix the problem of not being able to fully overclock Mk3 miners too. (Mk3 miners at 200%+ on a pure node mine faster than even Mk5 belts can handle)
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Oct 5, 2021 16:56
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Collateral Damage posted:It would be nice if you could put a splitter directly on a machine's output and it would feed it at unlimited speed. That would fix the problem of not being able to fully overclock Mk3 miners too. (Mk3 miners at 200%+ on a pure node mine faster than even Mk5 belts can handle) In a stream sometime like a year ago Jace was talking with their lead designer guy, and the whole "where are mk6 belts / mk3 miners" issue came up. It's not a simple thing, apparently the reason mk6 belts don't exist is about engine performance and how fast they can run the tick rate of their background code without stupid amounts of overhead. They're totally aware that mk3 miners on a pure node can't max out. And it's not just about the belts themselves, it's more fundamental, like the IO ports aren't capable of unlimited speed. So just sticking a splitter directly to a miner wouldn't help. And someone in chat said "why not just have the mk3 miner have 2 outputs like the industrial container?" At first he reacted like gosh that's so obvious, why didn't we think of that. But then he reconsidered and said something about it wouldn't work due to threading. No further explanation to that, but if each IO port is threaded then I can this being a problem. OTOH industrial containers manage to output to 2 mk5 belts (?), but maybe their machine template would be difficult to make work the same as a container. So I can see a bunch of possible solutions to the problem, like: 1. fixing performance such that mk6 belts work 2. special-case the mk3 miner to work with 2 outputs the same way an industrial container does 3. re-do the mk3 miner to be like a mini-fracker, where the main miner is powered & clocked, and then you attach subsidiary output units (1-3 depending on purity) And the fact that #1 would be the best solution -- because it implies better performance for all players -- means you won't see solutions 2 or 3 until it's version 1.0 time. You only spend effort on those if the best solution isn't in the cards.
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Oct 6, 2021 00:22
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Klyith posted:In a stream sometime like a year ago Jace was talking with their lead designer guy, and the whole "where are mk6 belts / mk3 miners" issue came up. It's not a simple thing, apparently the reason mk6 belts don't exist is about engine performance and how fast they can run the tick rate of their background code without stupid amounts of overhead. They're totally aware that mk3 miners on a pure node can't max out. And it's not just about the belts themselves, it's more fundamental, like the IO ports aren't capable of unlimited speed. So just sticking a splitter directly to a miner wouldn't help. I'm running a mod with MK7 belts that are capable of 7000/m pulling 3600/m ore out of MK4 miners (also a mod) without any problems other than the graphical glitch that makes them look like they are running backwards. This is with an Intel i7-4790, Geforce GTX 970, and 32G of RAM. A far cry from a cutting edge system. The only thing I notice is that my CPU cooler fan kicks into high gear when the game is running, but no lag or glitching. I'm not a programmer and not arguing with you, just my personal experience.
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Oct 6, 2021 01:12
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SkunkDuster posted:I'm running a mod with MK7 belts that are capable of 7000/m pulling 3600/m ore out of MK4 miners (also a mod) without any problems other than the graphical glitch that makes them look like they are running backwards. This is with an Intel i7-4790, Geforce GTX 970, and 32G of RAM. A far cry from a cutting edge system. The only thing I notice is that my CPU cooler fan kicks into high gear when the game is running, but no lag or glitching. I'm not a programmer and not arguing with you, just my personal experience. Have you noticed any issues with precision? There are already minor bugs in the base game where mk.5 belts and mk.2 pipes don't actually carry the 780/600 units per minute like they're supposed to, I would expect those issues to become more pronounced as more materials pass through the same belt/pipe.
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Oct 6, 2021 18:05
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Have you noticed any issues with precision? There are already minor bugs in the base game where mk.5 belts and mk.2 pipes don't actually carry the 780/600 units per minute like they're supposed to, I would expect those issues to become more pronounced as more materials pass through the same belt/pipe. I'm also using the efficiency checker mod and item teleporters (because I am a dirty cheater), both of which can display throughput, and they both show the correct items/minute.
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Oct 6, 2021 18:20
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More about the train updates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CskxkIepX6Y
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Oct 8, 2021 17:42
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Trains shaping up to be really cool. It'll be a fun project to potentially remake my mess of train lines that pretty much only have one train on them each. I learned early on that not only did my brain *really* not like trains passing through each other with no collision, but I got nailed multiple times by the bug that can have trains take the wrong switch direction if they're running too close together and I didn't want to make turnarounds everywhere. From there I just stopped having trains share track. That being said, most of my trains are relatively local to the factories they're supplying so it's not too bad. The thing where you can filter what items a train drops off is really neat. I wish it could be extended to be by car, but still a neat feature that gives me a lot of ideas.
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Oct 8, 2021 19:44
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nielsm posted:More about the train updates: tl;dw: Rerailing is extremely easy, you just point to the fallen car and press E to rerail it, don't even need to place it back on the track manually, it just teleports back. You can rerail from either the fallen car, or from where it fell off the track. (So you can rescue cars that fell into bottomless pits too.) Yes, you will probably need to do a lot of repairing and rerailing when you load your save that has more than one train on shared track. The train orders UI has been totally reworked, to have drag-drop ordering of stations, and include a world map too. And you can set partial or full load orders, and maximum waiting time. Collisions work also with trains that are outside of the general physics-simulated area, so even across the map. And trains on non-connected track can collide if they come too close, so two rails crossing will need signals, as will two rails running very close to each other. Signals come in two flavors, block and path. The names are similar to OpenTTD, but as far as I understand they are slightly different. Block signals just consider all connected track (including close-but-not-connected track) as a single block, and turn red as long as any track inside the block is occupied. Path signals allow trains to pass when they can form a path into another block. In OpenTTD terms, they are sort of a combination of pre-signals and path signals: The train needs a block signal to exit the path signal path, and the path signal only turns green when the block the train is entering is clear. Multiple path signals after each other chain, in some way, I'm not sure exactly what that means. I think it means you need to use both types of signals for complex networks. Maybe I'm not understanding Jace's explanation right, we'll see.
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Oct 8, 2021 19:48
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A lot is going to depend on what Jace meant by path signals chaining - specifically whether they can chain with some sort of setting or they always chain. If the latter then you're definitely going to want block signals in some places, otherwise a path-signal-only network will reserve the entire route from station to station and no other train can cross it even if the train won't be along for five minutes. If the former then you probably could have path-only networks as long as they're properly configured. I'm assuming it's going to be an "always chain" situation, otherwise there's no need to build block signals at all and the path signals would have involve manual settings making building them more laborious.
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Oct 8, 2021 20:31
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It sounds to me like they're basically exactly Factorio trains now
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Oct 8, 2021 21:24
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Perhaps the reserved paths only unreserve in full from signal to signal, and not in segments like they do in OpenTTD. In that case, you'd want chains of path signals that all reserve through, but unreserve parts when the train had passed through each signal on the path.
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Oct 8, 2021 22:16
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1. Sweet relief that they have the path signals, my rail network isn't a total loss! 2. lol I was totally wrong that trains on separated rails wouldn't collide. 3. Do the signals have analog positioning anywhere along a track segment, or just at the connection points of track pieces? At the beginning he was like "you can divide up this track however you want", but all the in-game examples looked like they were on the segment joins. Chadzok posted:It sounds to me like they're basically exactly Factorio trains now Stock Factorio has only block signals. Path signals will allow trains to use single bi-directional tracks in at least some cases, which is a thing Factorio can't do. Exactly how that will work is gonna depend on some details that Jace didn't go into though. Particularly that forward path stuff. Like I'm not 100% sure that a short siding for passing will work, but I think they will.
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Oct 8, 2021 22:24
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RIP Satisfactory pocket loco, hello Satisfactory personal cargo train with its own parking station at every build!
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Oct 8, 2021 22:26
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I don't know what you mean by Stock Factorio but Factorio has Chain Signals which are exactly Path Signals (assuming the path signals chain in the same way)
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Oct 8, 2021 22:27
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Impermanent posted:yea honestly the very early part of satisfactory really feels bad compared to sae the same in factorio because you have a number of ways of trying to get around the problems of slow belt throughput in factorio by using inserters and various tricks to get more out of your belts, but you don't have the same ability push through problems in the early moments of satisfactory. Just want to echo this, between the godawful power system that is biomass & the aforementioned belt issues. It's enough that my friend and I have given up our coop attempt to continue with the game. Just spent the whole time thinking "I could be playing Factorio and actually accomplishing anything".
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Oct 8, 2021 22:35
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nielsm posted:(So you can rescue cars that fell into bottomless pits too.) Hey now, what if you don't? What if you were to set up an intentional derailing to fling trains into the pits with say... all your nuclear waste?
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Oct 8, 2021 22:36
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Leal posted:Hey now, what if you don't? What if you were to set up an intentional derailing to fling trains into the pits with say... all your nuclear waste? Probably same thing as other vehicles. They won't despawn and will accumulate at the bottom of the pit until your framerate makes things unplayable. Only made one train in my 1000 hours of playing and all it did was go back and forth from one location to another. I'm still more partial to drones but Update 5 does seem to be "the train update" to a certain extent so I'm going to try and implement them more extensively for my next save and find a use for a ring track going around the whole game world. Maybe just for dealing with quickwire or some other material where you need tons of the stuff and it's a hassle to transport just with belts and drones.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:01
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Klyith posted:Stock Factorio has only block signals. Factorio also has chain signals, which only allow the train to go through, if it can reserve a path to a green block signal. But the "one train per block" rule is absolute. You can make the intersection from the example work, but you'd need extra signals to break it up into smaller blocks.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:22
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Going by the example there if you wanted to make a big complicated intersection all you'd need is a chain signal at each entrance and a signal at each exit, no need to break it up into smaller blocks.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:31
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