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Countblanc posted:Maybe I'm looking at the wrong systems, but what games are so light that people don't need to read the rules? I've been playing Fellowship and a few other PbtA games lately and even those have """""homework"""" before session zero/one. When I start games with new players I make it as clear as I can that I expect people to read some of the rules in advance - and I always emphasize that I'm more than happy to answer questions and I always pick out the relevant chapters or pages beforehand so it rarely works out to more like reading 16-20 pages (with pictures!) over the course of two weeks before a game begins - but that even in prep-light games I'll be doing a fair amount of work week to week so it's a fair expectation in my eyes. In the last couple years, off the top of my head: Any thing by Meguey Baker, Vincent Baker, or overtly derived (this is at least 75% of my games)* Wanderhome BITD and derivatives Nice Marines Fiasco Prime Time Adventures The Combination My finding has been that an hour or two for session 0 is usually enough, maybe a bit longer for PTA because you're making the whole spine of the campaign right there. If a player has never played before, including "has never played an rpg at all before," most of these can be explained pretty fast, BITD being by far the most demanding but still a casual conversation of under 30 minutes; did that recently with Wanderhome and Dungeon World and the players went from 0 to great after like 2 sessions. *MF0RA excluded, though MF0FB was easy even compared to Poisoned.
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Oct 8, 2021 20:59
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Countblanc posted:Maybe I'm looking at the wrong systems, but what games are so light that people don't need to read the rules? I've been playing Fellowship and a few other PbtA games lately and even those have """""homework"""" before session zero/one. When I start games with new players I make it as clear as I can that I expect people to read some of the rules in advance - and I always emphasize that I'm more than happy to answer questions and I always pick out the relevant chapters or pages beforehand so it rarely works out to more like reading 16-20 pages (with pictures!) over the course of two weeks before a game begins - but that even in prep-light games I'll be doing a fair amount of work week to week so it's a fair expectation in my eyes.
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Oct 8, 2021 21:38
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What is it about TTRPG games/dynamics that people put up with this poo poo? Is it the players? My other three hobbies are hiking, golf, and cooking. Two of which (cooking by way of dinner parties and golf) require people to commit to a time in advance and show. If people canceled the same day I'd be peeved, if they no-showed I'd be livid. And I wouldn't invite them back again. Even a hike, which doesn't require too much prep and I can go forth without my friend if they bail, is less fun if I was planning on doing it with a friend, and I'd stop inviting them if it happened more than once or twice. Sure, a long-running campaign increases the chances of life happening. But I've probably GM'd for north of 40 players in my life, and while I've had plenty of no-shows, I've never had a player no-show a session zero. I think it was Grant Howitt who compared RPGs to baseball (though that doesn't sound right), wherein if someone wanted to learn how to play baseball, the appropriate answer is "let's go throw the ball around", but RPG players are like "come join my league, we meet once a week for practice and have games on Saturday, it's a three month commitment, and you need to buy your own kit". Maybe that was somebody else's analogy? I just had a new guy (I'll call Paladin) join my group. Paladin works with a long-standing member, Rogue. Paladin had no clue what RPGs were, but they knew Rogue was having fun and trusted Rogue's suggestion that Paladin would love it. I offered to run a one-shot for Paladin if they wanted to see what RPGs were like, but made it clear they were asking to join our group right as they undertook a very deadly (for me) megadungeon, the equivalent of joining a league at the start of the season. We talked over expectations, and they've been my most communicative player in a long time.
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Oct 8, 2021 22:02
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CitizenKeen posted:. My instinctive response to this analogy, as someone who is seriously struggling to GM at all without running prewritten material straight out of a book, is that if you want to just go throw a ball around, you aren't asking someone to go clear the land, build a playing field from scratch, and be prepared to throw the whole thing away and waste the effort after a couple hours if it isn't working out. On top of "let's go throw the ball around" not including any of the character-side work that goes into it. There's far more startup investment even in a minimalist game and it's usually very unevenly distributed. Makes people take it a lot more seriously than "let's do some pickup baseball". I'm willing to put up with a lot of poo poo as a GM wrt scheduling because I know for sure my players will come back *eventually* even if we sporadically miss times. Not everyone has the luxury of a group that will keep coming back, so screening for that up front gets common.
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Oct 8, 2021 22:11
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I think the way that in the course of a page or so we've had players express everything from "I have to run games that require nothing from other players other than butts in seats" to "RPGs are the one hobby that expects this much homework, research, and time commitment just to participate" is interesting. To extend the baseball analogy. Some people want to just toss a ball around when they get a chance, others want to play in a Saturday softball league, and some people expect an MLB quality field with all positions filled to be there and waiting for them when and if they get the urge to play pickle.
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Oct 8, 2021 22:53
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SkyeAuroline posted:is, that if you want to just go throw a ball around, you aren't asking someone to go clear the land, build a playing field from scratch, and be prepared to throw the whole thing away and waste the effort after a couple hours if it isn't working out. I mean, if somebody wants to know what role playing is, I can put together a game of Fiasco, 24XX, Trophy Dark, or any of Grant Howitt's one pagers in fifteen minutes. No GM prep, no player prep, rules rodeo in minutes. I don't feel the need to "clear the land" and I think it's generally foolish to do so if you don't know if your players want to stick around or not. I think that's the point of the baseball analogy: get people in with low hanging fruit, then sell them on a campaign.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:01
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CitizenKeen posted:I mean, if somebody wants to know what role playing is, I can put together a game of Fiasco, 24XX, Trophy Dark, or any of Grant Howitt's one pagers in fifteen minutes. No GM prep, no player prep, rules rodeo in minutes. I don't feel the need to "clear the land" and I think it's generally foolish to do so if you don't know if your players want to stick around or not. I have people in. It's selling on a campaign that's the hard part, along with running that campaign. That's also where you see more of the aim for, well... players that are going to put in the work for a campaign. Coolness Averted posted:I think the way that in the course of a page or so we've had players express everything from "I have to run games that require nothing from other players other than butts in seats" to "RPGs are the one hobby that expects this much homework, research, and time commitment just to participate" is interesting. It is interesting, though I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm sure favored games makes up some of the disparity in opinions, though - if you're never touching prep-heavy games and just running one-page one-shots, that's going to skew perceptions, and likewise for... whatever the opposite end of the scale is (I don't even know, because every game is "prep-heavy" for someone like me who is incapable of more than a miniscule amount of improv, so it's all the same point on the scale).
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Oct 8, 2021 23:07
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CitizenKeen posted:I mean, if somebody wants to know what role playing is, I can put together a game of Fiasco, 24XX, Trophy Dark, or any of Grant Howitt's one pagers in fifteen minutes. No GM prep, no player prep, rules rodeo in minutes. I don't feel the need to "clear the land" and I think it's generally foolish to do so if you don't know if your players want to stick around or not. Yeah, but the general thing we're talking about here isn't just intro to RPGs, it's playing them. Often with people who know what they are. Grant would be the first to admit Jason Statham's Big Vacation isn't suited to an ongoing campaign, nor is it gonna scratch the itch for players who want tactical combat and character customization. Delivering those is gonna require a bit more effort and work to get going. SkyeAuroline posted:I have people in. It's selling on a campaign that's the hard part, along with running that campaign. That's also where you see more of the aim for, well... players that are going to put in the work for a campaign. Yeah, I don't know the solution either. Like conversations obviously help, but sometimes people don't actually know what they want or can deliver, or you run into situations where you just can't quite find something that would be enjoyable enough for everyone at the table to justify whatever is being asked of them -whether it's a ton of homework, buying supplies, or just setting aside time and showing up. Coolness Averted fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Oct 8, 2021 |
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Oct 8, 2021 23:12
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CitizenKeen posted:My other three hobbies are hiking, golf, and cooking. Two of which (cooking by way of dinner parties and golf) require people to commit to a time in advance and show. If people canceled the same day I'd be peeved, if they no-showed I'd be livid. And I wouldn't invite them back again. Even a hike, which doesn't require too much prep and I can go forth without my friend if they bail, is less fun if I was planning on doing it with a friend, and I'd stop inviting them if it happened more than once or twice. To be fair, if someone did this to me for a game I'd be just as upset, and whether or not they'd get invited back would heavily depend on how close of a friend they are. I don't think people are any more forgiving when it comes to RPGs when they are of any other preplanned group outing. You just churn through a lot more new people recruited from game stores or online, so you hear a lot more failure stories.
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Oct 8, 2021 23:59
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I sooorta feel like this isn't specifically a roleplaying game thing. I've noticed over the past 20 years or so, as mobile phones have become ubiquitous, that a lot of people simply... don't plan social things ahead, any more. People text each other and spontaneously meet up if they're feeling like it right now, but a lot of folks will vaguely agree to meet up next thursday while having no particular sense that they have now made an Important Social Commitment that they can't just forget about or decide not to attend if they don't feel like it at the time. This could just be me being old and curmudgeonly. But back before people had phones on them constantly, they had to make arrangements in advance. You couldn't start calling people's houses at 4pm to arrange to meet up at 6, they probably wouldn't be home. If you wanted to participate in things at all, you had to have some kind of way to make and remember appointments - a calendar, sticky notes, whatever. Of course there's still good reliable people around who will take any appointment or date seriously, and of course back then there were flaky people who just often (or always) failed to show up on time or at all to anything. That's never not been a thing. I just have this sense that nowadays, a lot more people kind of fly by the seat of their pants from day to day and expect everyone else to do likewise. No social date more than 24 hours in advance is an actual "commitment" unless you had to buy tickets.
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Oct 9, 2021 00:13
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Leperflesh posted:I sooorta feel like this isn't specifically a roleplaying game thing. I've noticed over the past 20 years or so, as mobile phones have become ubiquitous, that a lot of people simply... don't plan social things ahead, any more. People text each other and spontaneously meet up if they're feeling like it right now, but a lot of folks will vaguely agree to meet up next thursday while having no particular sense that they have now made an Important Social Commitment that they can't just forget about or decide not to attend if they don't feel like it at the time. I hear this, but I've only encountered it in single people with no kids. Maybe that's just me. I feel like people who don't have to make commitments don't? But people whose social lives are already filled with calendars don't really struggle with adding one more thing to their calendar.
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Oct 9, 2021 00:37
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Leperflesh posted:This could just be me being old and curmudgeonly. But back before people had phones on them constantly, they had to make arrangements in advance. You couldn't start calling people's houses at 4pm to arrange to meet up at 6, they probably wouldn't be home. If you wanted to participate in things at all, you had to have some kind of way to make and remember appointments - a calendar, sticky notes, whatever. The main problem my group has, and I'm guilty of this as well, is that information is so easy to relay and so easy to find that a lot of people now tend to assume that everyone else knows what they know. 'Hi. What? I'm at home, we're not gaming tonight, my inlaws are in town... Oh, yeah, uh, my inlaws are in town and we're not gaming, I probably should've told you that earlier.'
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Oct 9, 2021 06:51
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I think a lot of it tends to revolve around what kinds of players you've got in your groups- geeky types tend to have a pretty high proportion of ADHD and depression people (diagnosed or otherwise) both of whom as part of their condition(s) have a hell of a time keeping commitments compared to more neurotypical people, or people with a different set of issues. It could be a lack of interest, or it could be "OK, cool, I'm gonna play on Thursday, that'll be fun! Oh, look, I have an appointment on Monday. Oh, my sister's in town Wednesday and wants to meet up, sweet! Oh, poo poo, I forgot I have bills due on Monday..." and then their lovely brain, which can't keep up with more than a few thoughts at a time, just completely fumbles Thursday. Or, alternately, they wake up on Thursday and can't get out of bed because their lovely brain has decided today is depressive episode day and the best they can manage is maybe get some crackers for breakfast. Of course there's also plenty of people who'll just... decide to say gently caress you to a plan for whatever reason, but IME more often it's innocent brain problems. (I think also people with these problems tend to gravitate toward each other, so people who don't have them probably don't have the same experience of seemingly random flaking.)
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Oct 9, 2021 08:10
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Technology has also increased the cognitive load of regular tasks, and normalised multitasking and asynchronous conversation.
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Oct 9, 2021 14:03
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lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwqm_dORX6k
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Oct 9, 2021 14:27
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Leperflesh posted:I sooorta feel like this isn't specifically a roleplaying game thing. I've noticed over the past 20 years or so, as mobile phones have become ubiquitous, that a lot of people simply... don't plan social things ahead, any more. People text each other and spontaneously meet up if they're feeling like it right now, but a lot of folks will vaguely agree to meet up next thursday while having no particular sense that they have now made an Important Social Commitment that they can't just forget about or decide not to attend if they don't feel like it at the time. I will say that in my life, the majority of my friends are pretty anal about plans. I blame this on living in NYC where everyone has multiple jobs - everyone has very precious time and it is very typical that everyone has multiple obligations, and most of the time I know everything I'm going to do for the next week or two with some amount of granularity. My little brother however has a flake rate of about 90%, and will ask me if I'm free to take a 2 hour trip when I'm in the middle of a 5 hour meeting that was planned a month ago, feels like he's from an alien planet sometimes.
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Oct 9, 2021 21:29
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fwiw the animation looks great, but what's up with the sound?? The fact that there is no dialogue in it makes me somehow think they are going to use the podcast audio in the animation?
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Oct 9, 2021 21:34
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Brass posted:fwiw the animation looks great, but what's up with the sound?? The fact that there is no dialogue in it makes me somehow think they are going to use the podcast audio in the animation? It's just the intro. I hope Mercer voices every single non player
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Oct 9, 2021 21:37
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I don't know. I just don't get that RPGs also seem to have a substantial sunk effect even though there seems to be no reason. I've seen at another club a small group in which two people and a GM were sitting apparently playing One Ring, although they were silent most of the time and occasionally someone moved to do something remarkable in a low, bored voice. It lasted about three months. My only guess is that it's people who're interested in the idea of RPGs but not happy with the universal tradeoffs such as description drift, implied narration and turn taking.
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Oct 9, 2021 22:09
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Coolness Averted posted:"RPGs are the one hobby that expects this much homework, research, and time commitment just to participate" Well, I think the expectation varies and the reality can and does shift around a lot. My comment from before was coming from picturing the average player starting off with D&D, and even there I think that most people don't expect new players to read the whole Player's Handbook, and they may be handed a pre-gen character with no expectation of rounding out a backstory. Homework and whatever you mean by "research" then is heavily cut down, at least on the player's side. Time commitment is pretty hard to work around though. hyphz posted:I don't know. I just don't get that RPGs also seem to have a substantial sunk effect even though there seems to be no reason. There's a very obvious reason why pen and paper RPGs have a sunk cost in terms of buying materials, reading the game, and having someone willing to build the adventure as the GM. It's because D&D has always expected all of these things and every other game exists in its shadow. However, I think even without D&D you'd still get games where reading a large rulebook is necessary at least for a GM, if not at least segments for players. There's plenty of board games and video games of varying levels of complexity which demonstrate that people want games with more technical mechanics while others want lighter, more freeform games. Some people are willing to make the commitment because they like fiddling with more little bits. Most social activities with other people also involve time commitments, too, though tabletop RPGs ask for recurring sessions over multiple weeks/months more often than I think a lot of people are used to nowadays. Aside from all of that, the big thing that RPGs ask for that's less common in other leisure activities is keeping ongoing engagement in an improvised story, contributing to it through your persona, and playing that out. It involves a lot of mental and emotional energy (as well as being comfortable having a spotlight shown on you intermittently) that playing a game of basketball together or some couch multiplayer video game doesn't demand.
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Oct 9, 2021 22:28
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Tulip posted:I will say that in my life, the majority of my friends are pretty anal about plans. I blame this on living in NYC where everyone has multiple jobs - everyone has very precious time and it is very typical that everyone has multiple obligations, and most of the time I know everything I'm going to do for the next week or two with some amount of granularity. I'm super cagey about committing to plans because I'm in a different time zone from most of the folks I make plans with and general moods and such, but I really try to make sure that once I agree to a plan I'm there. Partially it's respect for other people's time, partially it's because once I start letting that slide I don't think I'd ever be able to get it back.
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Oct 10, 2021 03:53
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Nuns with Guns posted:Aside from all of that, the big thing that RPGs ask for that's less common in other leisure activities is keeping ongoing engagement in an improvised story, contributing to it through your persona, and playing that out. It involves a lot of mental and emotional energy (as well as being comfortable having a spotlight shown on you intermittently) that playing a game of basketball together or some couch multiplayer video game doesn't demand. The tricky bit with the sunk cost effect is people who don’t seem to be enjoying an RPG nonetheless insisting that they want to continue playing it (specifically).
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Oct 10, 2021 05:01
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hyphz posted:The tricky bit with the sunk cost effect is people who don’t seem to be enjoying an RPG nonetheless insisting that they want to continue playing it (specifically). “seem” is doing a lot of work in that sentence, I think.
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Oct 10, 2021 05:03
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hyphz posted:The tricky bit with the sunk cost effect is people who don’t seem to be enjoying an RPG nonetheless insisting that they want to continue playing it (specifically).
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Oct 10, 2021 05:20
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Hostile V posted:Talk to your loving players. no
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Oct 10, 2021 05:24
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Hostile V posted:Talk to your loving players. The worst thing about IRL is that there's no pre-generated adventure module to run for it.
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Oct 10, 2021 05:27
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RPGs are really easy to flake because: 1) There's an expectation that everyone else will make it and it's no big deal. 2) It's typically a 4+ hour commitment (plus travel time), and canceling effectively returns all that back in free time. Giving advance notice is the responsible choice, but I'm hesitant to begrudge anyone for a no-show. Sure there's a social obligation to the group, but if they'd prefer (or are required) to be somewhere else? They're going to have less fun shirking that other obligation (even if it's to themselves.)
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Oct 10, 2021 05:34
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It can’t just be me, surely? Almost every “RPG horror story” or online flaked group seems in that category? (Surely not ALL those are made up?)
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Oct 10, 2021 07:25
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There are plenty of reasons groups end up flaking or being bad, and almost none of them have to do with this weird idea you're obsessed with that people hate the games they play but play them anyway because they are not the ubermensch who gets the privilege of deciding what game gets played.
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Oct 10, 2021 07:37
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the people I have had issues with flaking on games in my life have been people who are just terminally flakey regardless of what we're playing and we sort of just need to stop inviting them at some point despite them being otherwise fun people because they absolutely will not commit consistently to a game
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Oct 10, 2021 07:46
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My worst experience with gamer flaking was in high school. I invited seven people to play Paranoia on a Saturday, figuring I'd get enough people to actually play on average, and could cope if everyone showed. Nobody showed. Bay Area gamers simply cannot beorganized in the slightest fashion.
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Oct 10, 2021 07:46
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hyphz posted:It can’t just be me, surely? Almost every “RPG horror story” or online flaked group seems in that category? (Surely not ALL those are made up?) I feel like you have let your group of people who don't seem very nice (based on what I've read in here, the philosophy thread, etc) inform how you see all group relationships. It honestly feels like your opinion is that everyone hates to play RPGs but keep going out of some social obligation. It's not something I've seen brought up by anyone else. Personally I have a group that misses a week or two probably every other month or so. Due to player's having obligations, feeling sick, or even just not feeling up to it. My players are content to wait until everyone is present to keep playing and I think that makes the group tighter. In situations like that we run a one shot, do a single player RPG, or collaboratively build a dungeon via play to use later in the campaign.
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Oct 10, 2021 08:03
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Coolness Averted posted:I think the way that in the course of a page or so we've had players express everything from "I have to run games that require nothing from other players other than butts in seats" to "RPGs are the one hobby that expects this much homework, research, and time commitment just to participate" is interesting. my take is that anything tabletop wargaming or CCG players can do, tabletop RPG players can do tabletop players probably won't, and i am for most practical purposes resigned to this, but they don't get to act like it's some impossible burden 
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Oct 10, 2021 10:58
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IronicDongz posted:the people I have had issues with flaking on games in my life have been people who are just terminally flakey regardless of what we're playing and we sort of just need to stop inviting them at some point despite them being otherwise fun people because they absolutely will not commit consistently to a game It's this. These people exist at every level who have simply no concept that others value their time.
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Oct 10, 2021 11:21
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I played a few sessions of D&D with a group of three other players and a GM in London when I was living there that played every fortnight in the same pub on Saturday afternoons. They would play their existing campaign but anyone who rocked up could create a character and join them for one session and the GM would work them into the ongoing campaign - even if they had just finished a mega boss fight deep at the end of a dungeon in a parallel dimension, as was the case when I first joined them - and play as an equal member of the party. Then if they didn't come back the GM would write them out and move on. It was a strange dynamic on the surface but it worked really well. Some sessions it was just the core three and the GM, some sessions they'd have seven players. Some people would just turn up once and never been seen again, others would join them for several weeks in a row. Many were like me, and would turn up sporadically over a long period of time and the core characters would be excited to run into their old pal and ask them what they'd been up and do they have time to help them hunt the wizard troll demon they are fighting this week? They'd been doing this for two years and are probably still doing it now. You need a GM who is really ace at bringing in new PCs on the fly and also able to build encounters that can be easily adjusted for the number of players and their abilities, but this GM was great at that. I guess practice makes perfect. tanglewood1420 fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Oct 10, 2021 |
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Oct 10, 2021 11:52
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My hot take is that RPGs as a hobby with "homework" or "sunk cost" is hardly unique. Like, over the last couple of months I've been playing a lot of first-person shooters (Call of Duty, Battlefield) and even if you set aside the parts of these games where there's a deliberate sunk-cost system as programmed in by the developers (i.e. battle passes, weapon grinds, perk grinds), there's still the part where you need to develop muscle memory, you have to do warm-ups, you have to do some research on the "meta" of weaponry and perks, you have to build your map knowledge, and so on Or something like Diablo 2 Resurrected, a game I've also been playing recently: you need to learn which classes are good (at least to start off with), what "builds" are good within those classes, you need to farm up the gear, and so on. In both of these cases, it's not... a small ask to have a person to jump into another game altogether because they might already have a significant time and effort invested into the other one that they'd already have been playing. I mean, if they're my friends and I wanna play a game with them then sure I'm going to jump into a match of Warzone or whatever, but it's still gonna sting if I have to start from level 1 with only the default weapons and no attachments unlocked and I'm not familiar with the map, and I feel like that's the same kind of impulse that's at play when you have a person that's very familiar with D&D 3.5e and they're apprehensive about jumping into GURPS.
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Oct 10, 2021 12:30
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gradenko_2000 posted:My hot take is that RPGs as a hobby with "homework" or "sunk cost" is hardly unique. Yes absolutely. Recreational team sport, amateur theatre, book club, music group, dance class... there are countless hobbies where you are expected to do 'homework' in your own time. You have to learn the play, read the novel, practice your skill, do the exercises etc. Compared to many popular hobbies, being a player in a TTRPG for three hours a week isn't much of a commitment at all.
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Oct 10, 2021 12:54
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hyphz posted:It can’t just be me, surely? Almost every “RPG horror story” or online flaked group seems in that category? (Surely not ALL those are made up?) There are flaky people everywhere. Sometimes they're just badly disorganized, sometimes they just don't hold a lot of respect for people around them, either specifically or generally. I don't think RPGs are peculiar in attracting flakes. My IRL friends mostly have very low flake rates (I mostly know them from political organizing), but my online friends I don't think are especially good at sticking to plans, and this is everything from RPGs to movie nights. RPGs tend to have a more obvious fallout from people no-showing. I don't really have any other group activities where if one person no-shows, the first resort is to cancel the session. It's possible it's because I tend to play RPGs that are very rules light and character-heavy, with small groups (I consider 5 players to be extremely unwieldy, 3 is ideal, and I know there are people who play with like 8 and that just seems impossible to me), but if we're down a PC it's a pretty dramatic decline. I have other activities where if one person cancels its over because it was a 2 person thing (wargames, a one on one night out), but the absolute exposure to one person flaking is the two people, while a group of 4-6 people has 2-3x as many people in the flaky spot. But I don't think it is anything to do with the nature of the games, nor of the types of people roleplaying games attract.
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Oct 10, 2021 13:49
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My online and meatspace friends have absolutely zero initiative and will not start groups or do any homework about the system or make a character in advance, but if I schedule a time they’ll all be there unless someone gets a flat tire. I have one friend who takes initiative, but he runs 2 weekly groups continuously and only plays DND so we can’t hang out much.
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Oct 10, 2021 14:22
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I think the bigger issue with RPG flakes is the ol Geek Social Fallacies in play where nerds are used to putting up with drat near anything just to have company where more confident people would have drawn a line a long time ago.
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Oct 10, 2021 16:04
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