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Oct 27, 2021 18:49
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thotsky posted:The fight scenes were a bit naff, if the shields don't neutralize kinetic force then shooting someone should be plenty effective, yet people were throwing each other around, bashing each other and parrying like no tomorrow, suggesting it disallows penetration but still transfers force to the shield wearer. I generally agree that the knife fights were kind of lame*, but this is the dumbest critique of them you could make. Do you have any idea how momentum works? Large objects moving slowly behave differently than small objects moving really fast. This is not esoteric physics knowledge, you can see the difference by slowly walking into something vs throwing an object at it. *They’re actually a great microcosm of the problem of adapting the book, because all the details are cool as hell but very hard to demonstrate purely visually. It’s a very difficult problem that the movie only kind of sort of solves.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:03
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The knife fights with shields were fine. The vision knife fight was fine. The climactic knife fight was fine. It feels like some people are grasping at things to dislike about this movie because Red Letter Media hasnt told everyone what to think about it yet.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:34
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AndyElusive posted:The knife fights with shields were fine. The vision knife fight was fine. The climactic knife fight was fine. That's a condescending way to dismiss a complaint. The fights involve a lot of spins, flips, and busy slashes and parries that don't read well. I also specifically compared it to another movie out now, the last duel, which has a very different style for the fights.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:40
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The knife fights were a solid B- generic flippy thing in an otherwise great film. They weren’t terrible but the words that come to mind are things like “serviceable” and “fine I guess”.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:45
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Xiahou Dun posted:Large objects moving slowly behave differently than small objects moving really fast. This is not esoteric physics knowledge, you can see the difference by slowly walking into something vs throwing an object at it. Sure? I mean, this is science fiction here; my criticism is that the way the fights played out does not follow or demonstrate the internal logic of the shield gimmick. Basically, the shield is meant to completely defeat quick attacks, including projectile and even energy weapons. Only the slow blade will pass. This, and the mutually assured destruction that would result from an energy blast hitting a shield is the justification for why everyone runs around with swords in the far future. However, if you can kick someone, or strike their blade away, that's basically showing that force is still transferred through the shield, rather then getting magically absorbed vibranium style or reflected onto the person doing said kicking. If that is true, a shotgun blast to the face should still be plenty dangerous. I don't need it to make perfect sense, it's ultimately magic, but it's a missed opportunity to just have regular movie swordplay with some visual effects on top. thotsky fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 19:50
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Really not feelin' that the action scenes in Denis Villeneuve's Frank Herbert's Dune would have contributed a lot to the movie by being Raid-level worthy.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:50
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They explain in the 4th book, God Emperor of Dune, what happens if you shoot a cannon at someone who has a shield activated.
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Oct 27, 2021 19:52
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I was frankly surprised that it went PG-13, but then Dune '84 was PG-13 and includes this top 10 anime death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAS4pJmuHAM&t=178s
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Oct 27, 2021 19:56
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Xiahou Dun posted:The knife fights were a solid B- generic flippy thing in an otherwise great film. They weren’t terrible but the words that come to mind are things like “serviceable” and “fine I guess”.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:00
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Countdown until the nefarious RLM gives the sheeple their marching orders
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Oct 27, 2021 20:00
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Astrochicken posted:Really not feelin' that the action scenes in Denis Villeneuve's Frank Herbert's Dune would have contributed a lot to the movie by being Raid-level worthy. Criticism is fast approaching the Simpsons 'Itchy and Scratchy' focus group scene.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:06
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Kurzon posted:What do you mean by "generic flippy"? I think you can point to a pretty run of the mill fight choreography where the actors trade a pitter patter of largely inconsequential blows until one them performs an acrobatic move, particularly a spin, a tumble, or a kind of thing where they roll over the back of a bent over opponent, and it's that acrobatic move that sets up the real killing strike. You see it a lot particularly in PG 13 action movies aimed at teens. And its, you know its fine I guess, and that's the kind of movie Dune is in some ways, but in other aspects it's extremely good and it's a shame the fights aren't elevated to that higher level.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:06
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AndyElusive posted:The knife fights with shields were fine. The vision knife fight was fine. The climactic knife fight was fine. They looked like any other knife fights. On its own it's not a problem, but when the book/movie go out of their way lengths to explain that they aren't normal knife fights, and then delivers... normal knife fights, it's not "grasping" at anything. It's a distraction that will have viewers thinking "I thought they said these weren't normal knife fights?" When they should be engaged by unique choreography that was promised. They could easily have taken artistic license and said "Yeah shields stop bullets but not swords" and left it as that, but the they chose not to.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:07
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Oscar Issac should do a StarTrek now.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:10
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thotsky posted:Sure? I mean, this is science fiction here; my criticism is that the way the fights played out does not follow or demonstrate the internal logic of the shield gimmick. Basically, the shield is meant to completely defeat quick attacks, including projectile and even energy weapons. Only the slow blade will pass. This, and the unexplained mutually assured distruction that would result from an energy blast hitting a shield is the justification for why everyone runs around with swords in the far future. No? Do you not know how guns work? They make a very small thing go really fast. In terms of raw kinetic force, a shotgun is basically negligible. In terms of actually knocking someone over, a good shove is more successful : bullets make you fall over because you can’t stand up, not because they push you over. I’m not defending the choreography, it was very boring and I’d have loved to see something more interesting done with them. But this line of critique is incredibly silly.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:15
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We all have some dumb loving critiques of things, it’s the human condition, but “this thing doesn’t replicate my own weird misunderstandings about how reality works, the creator should be aware of my bizarre lack of knowledge from huffing paint thinner and specifically conform to it” is the dumbest loving thing. Not knowing a thing is fine and cool, using your ignorance as a basis for criticism is total bullshit and you should go back to Cinemasins.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:27
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I felt like a ton got trimmed watching this (it's been a very long time since I read Dune), but I thought the film was largely successful at establishing all the stuff it needed to. It was pretty, I liked the sound design, and it ends at a rather sensible spot all things considered. There is a lot of weird poo poo in Dune and I thought most of it was introduced p accessibly and clearly enough for anyone to follow the important pieces for the next film. No one who watches this should be that lost at the end of it, which I can't say was true for the OG film. It honestly was kinda light on a lot of stare into the camera exposition. I will agree the action sequences were kinda meh, just nothing special or that interesting, very ho hum fine enough. IMO it could have been way weirder trippier and I would have liked that, but this was good and engaging.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:31
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Actually, speaking of the sword fights... why do they only use swords anyways? I don't recall that being addressed in the books either, so I'm not holding it against the movie.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:46
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I was frankly surprised that it went PG-13, but then Dune '84 was PG-13 and includes this top 10 anime death: I love stilgar's reaction at the end.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:53
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The combat is ritualized; you can see from the large scale battle scenes that they have clever sci fi ways of defeating shields that they could probably use on people. But the fighting in Dune's setting is constrained, defined by rules of conduct enforced by general consent; the Empire and the Great Houses specifically don't want Total War because everybody would get space nuked.
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Oct 27, 2021 20:56
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Astrochicken posted:They explain in the 4th book, God Emperor of Dune, what happens if you shoot a cannon at someone who has a shield activated. Randalor posted:Actually, speaking of the sword fights... why do they only use swords anyways? I don't recall that being addressed in the books either, so I'm not holding it against the movie.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:05
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AndyElusive posted:The knife fights with shields were fine. The vision knife fight was fine. The climactic knife fight was fine. I just think that the knife fights were kinda lame. That's it.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:10
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Randalor posted:Actually, speaking of the sword fights... why do they only use swords anyways? I don't recall that being addressed in the books either, so I'm not holding it against the movie. You briefly see some Atreides troops using spears against the Harkonnens as they're storming the palace before the Sardaukar drop in behind them at least. Agree that real life combat with shield restraints would probably involve more spear walls or pike and shot style formations. Au Revoir Shosanna fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 21:12
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Randalor posted:Actually, speaking of the sword fights... why do they only use swords anyways? I don't recall that being addressed in the books either, so I'm not holding it against the movie. They explain it in the book. If you shoot a shield with a laser gun the result is a nuclear explosion, originating at a random point along the line between these two points. The real question is why battles are not just fought by suicide troops since anyone has that power at their disposal.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:13
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Au Revoir Shosanna posted:You briefly see some Atreides troops using spears against the Harkonnens as they're storming the palace before the Sardaukar drop in behind them at least. I wasn't sure if those were spears and swords, or just swords being held at arms length in the theater, it's a dark scene overall. Spears would make more sense but... Dune is weird overall in its setting so  Edit: thotsky posted:They explain it in the book. If you shoot a shield with a laser gun the result is a nuclear explosion, originating at a random point along the line between these two points. I meant "why not use spears or other long-shafted weapon to at least give distance between yourself and the enemy" rather than "why not use the lasers" when I said "only swords". We have a wide history of melee weapons to draw upon, even with the energy shields in play. Randalor fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 21:16
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Shouldn't they be using spears and shields too [€dit] oh they were? cool Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 21:18
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Very hazy memories of the books, but I think almost everyone uses specifically knives because of the desire for concealing them, since almost all violence is sudden little ambush scuffles and not giant battles. Only major badasses like Duncan and Gurney use honest to christ swords and even then they don’t walk around with them all the time. Knives are like a gun in a normal action movie, and swords are like a giant machinegun or a sniper rifle or something that signals the dude is a total shitkicker. But again, this was my reading from forever ago so my memory could be completely wrong.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:37
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Real knife fights are notorious for being short and chaotic so I'm not sure they could have done a great job putting them on screen. In the novel you have the luxury of spending 5 minutes describing a fight that takes 60 seconds.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:39
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thotsky posted:If that is true, a shotgun blast to the face should still be plenty dangerous. Shotgun blasts don't transfer that much momentum - at most the same as the recoil if whatever you're firing embeds in the target, at most twice if they bounce off in a very precise and extremely unrealistic scenario.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:40
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People die from less than lethal shotgun rounds all the time, I am sure it could be figured out. The point is that the shields are meant to neutralize anything moving above a very slow speed (to allow for breathing), and the choreography seem to not reflect that, not that there had to be shotguns in the movie.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:46
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It's always fun when somebody tries to nitpick minor details in a way that reveals they have no idea what they're talking about.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:49
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I'm one of the people who complained about the fights and I loooved the film. It was just a nitpick; I'm glad DV focused on building buckwild sets and giant machine models instead of hiring Iko Uwais as a choreographer if that was the trade off. I'll say this, I liked the Tea Ceremony Ambush and the Final Fremen One-on-One fights because they were really good at being "in the world" of Dune, showing how the Fremen's guerilla tactics work and showing Paul's state of mind once training became reality, respectively. In fact, the film sets up Paul as a competent "leg grappler" twice before the final fight, great storytelling. I just hope Dune 2 goes more that route instead of generic blockbuster comic book movie-style fights, which I felt like we saw in the Jason Momoa fights or the raid on Arrakeen.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:53
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thotsky posted:The real question is why battles are not just fought by suicide troops since anyone has that power at their disposal. Battles are fought by elite forces whose fighting skills matter because even transporting a small diplomatic delegation costs millions of Solaris. Only House Harkonnen or the Emperor could finance a military expedition with a whole fleet and multiple battalions, because they were pulling in billions of Solaris from the spice trade. And even then it was unbelievably expensive, to the point that House Harkonnen needs cash flow to finance all the debt they took on to do it. This was all in dialog. And just on a practical point handing a bunch of guys laser guns and then telling them they have to die is probably not going to work out that well. They might be inclined to use the laser guns on you. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Oct 27, 2021 |
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Oct 27, 2021 21:55
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I don't remember them stating that the shields work the same way in the movie. The scene with the bombs suggests it, but presumably it was too hard/goofy looking to portray on screen in a knife fight. My interpretation was that the shield works something like a halo shield. If it takes enough force it gets overloaded and then can be penetrated. I really don't know how you could film the knife fights as written without them looking lame as hell, and it's ultimately completely unimportant to the story so why bother when there's so much other poo poo to get right.
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Oct 27, 2021 21:58
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That Dang Dad posted:In fact, the film sets up Paul as a competent "leg grappler" twice before the final fight, great storytelling. I caught that too and liked it, and yeah just because I don't care for the actual movement by movement shot by shot fight scenes doesn't mean that aren't well written in a broader sense. I also thought the cultural reaction to "do you yield" was nicely done, and the Fremen's frustrated rage when he thought he was being toyed with was well acted.
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Oct 27, 2021 22:00
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There's a scene early in the movie where Gurney says "the slow knife penetrates the shield" which felt really redundant since they'd already shown it visually with Paul tapping himself and setting off the shield. One bit I really like is when Duncan is escaping and in the background the big Harkonnen ship lets off thousands of bombs blowing up everything underneath. It was a nice way of underscoring "our heroes aren't getting back up from this"
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Oct 27, 2021 22:01
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Arglebargle III posted:And just on a practical point handing a bunch of guys laser guns and then telling them they have to die is probably not going to work out that well. You might be surprised at what people can be convinced to do as part of jihad.
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Oct 27, 2021 22:04
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I'm fairly sure it's just described as an atomic explosion, which I take to mean that it's an explosion that leaves behind ionizing radiation that's easy to detect, not that there's a megaton-TNT-equivalent explosion. That also explains why everyone's so afraid of it, and it getting mistaken for use of the house atomics that every house has.
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Oct 27, 2021 22:04
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Jack B Nimble posted:I caught that too and liked it, and yeah just because I don't care for the actual movement by movement shot by shot fight scenes doesn't mean that aren't well written in a broader sense. I also thought the cultural reaction to "do you yield" was nicely done, and the Fremen's frustrated rage when he thought he was being toyed with was well acted. Yeah, that was great.
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Oct 27, 2021 22:04
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