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post hole digger posted:king.
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Oct 29, 2021 02:02
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i do not understand why people hate systemd other than grognard poo poo and i in fact quite like it
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Oct 29, 2021 05:41
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Jonny 290 posted:i do not understand why people hate systemd other than grognard poo poo and i in fact quite like it
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Oct 29, 2021 06:50
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it’s not obtuse enough to make me feel smart
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Oct 29, 2021 06:56
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Jonny 290 posted:i do not understand why people hate systemd other than grognard poo poo and i in fact quite like it it is not very hard to understand, the older init systems are conceptually trivial and as a result a small fun exercise to figure out, which makes you feel in control and generally on top of how your computer works. of course they turn out too limited for a lot of modern tasks, and have been replaced by systemd and others which amalgamate together a bunch of things, in the process making them a complex enough bureaucracy to not be worth the time to learn much about unless you're getting paid or are desperately boring person. i.e. same place that windows startup/services has been in since for decades, for the same reasons.
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Oct 29, 2021 07:16
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my fav thing about java on linux was all the bs you had to go through just to natively compile tomcat on linux and to use jsvc and mod_jk like why not make that the default if I have to janitor java
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Oct 29, 2021 07:21
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So Linux absolutely does not lead to healthy weight, but I think for computer touchers, running some janky Linux distro does give you practice at reading (or reconstructing) docs, debugging things that should already work, and generally practice skills that you'll need sooner or later anyway. Worked for me, so I tell the students at our department that it's worth running for this reason alone. Also, I remember once running some statistics and discovering that people who used Unix linebreaks in their assignments for some course got higher grades on average for that course, compared to those who used DOS linebreaks. That's probably more muddled now with WSL and macOS being so popular.
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Oct 29, 2021 07:28
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Athas posted:So Linux absolutely does not lead to healthy weight, but I think for computer touchers, running some janky Linux distro does give you practice at reading (or reconstructing) docs, debugging things that should already work, and generally practice skills that you'll need sooner or later anyway. Worked for me, so I tell the students at our department that it's worth running for this reason alone. source your quotes
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Oct 29, 2021 07:36
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Jonny 290 posted:i do not understand why people care about systemd one way or another
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Oct 29, 2021 09:01
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systemd is fine. every distro using a different fuckin network config system though, and changing it every couple major versions? that can gently caress off forever.
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Oct 29, 2021 09:07
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well, systemd is at minimum necessary. i am not actually sure it is the best architecture for the purpose, might have made more sense to make a more extensible thing with a core of common primitives rather than the fairly tight coupling it ended up with, but not very meaningful to question now. still, read literally it is hard to understand how you can't understand why some people dislike it.
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Oct 29, 2021 09:55
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Anyone who thinks sysv or bsd4 init is better than systemd needs drugs - like a weeks worth of shrooms and ketamine, because their stuck in one hell of a cognitive rut.
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Oct 29, 2021 10:04
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SYSV and BSD4.3 were designed to run on systems where the "motherboard" was still wire wrapped.  Not integrating init/cron/logging/mounting is like arguing that computer engineers shouldn't have integrated the ALU, registers, etc. into a single chip because a modular design had utility
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Oct 29, 2021 10:21
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Kazinsal posted:systemd is fine. systemd-network when fake edit https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-networkd oh cool
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Oct 29, 2021 10:26
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SYSV Fanfic posted:SYSV and BSD4.3 were designed to run on systems where the "motherboard" was still wire wrapped. now explain this in such a way that the posters above understand why you care
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Oct 29, 2021 10:28
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keeping the l2 cache off the processor in adherence to the unix philosophy
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Oct 29, 2021 10:31
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5v and 12v from the same psu? that's not elegant at all
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Oct 29, 2021 10:33
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:now explain this in such a way that the posters above understand why you care Because I'm an engineer. If an issue exists I have to have a strong opinion about it, regardless of how much I actually know.
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Oct 29, 2021 10:34
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SYSV Fanfic posted:SYSV and BSD4.3 were designed to run on systems where the "motherboard" was still wire wrapped. don't care 2 shits about the systemd thing but that board is beautiful. Just look at those sick 1970's vector graphics fonts
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Oct 29, 2021 11:28
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spankmeister posted:don't care 2 shits about the systemd thing but that board is beautiful. Just look at those sick 1970's vector graphics fonts
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Oct 29, 2021 11:48
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The unix philosophy (the programs must be kept seperate) aroused around the same time the supreme court said the races couldn't be kept separate. I think people at the time just liked keeping things seperate, because it helped them understand things. Unfortunately we wound up with a lot of race issues in linux as a result. So we did integration and wound up with systemd. hope that clears things up.
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Oct 29, 2021 12:07
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SYSV Fanfic posted:The unix philosophy (the programs must be kept seperate) aroused around the same time the supreme court said the races couldn't be kept separate. I think people at the time just liked keeping things seperate, because it helped them understand things. Unfortunately we wound up with a lot of race issues in linux as a result. So we did integration and wound up with systemd. what in tarnation
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Oct 29, 2021 15:29
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SYSV Fanfic posted:The unix philosophy (the programs must be kept seperate) aroused around the same time the supreme court said the races couldn't be kept separate. I think people at the time just liked keeping things seperate, because it helped them understand things. Unfortunately we wound up with a lot of race issues in linux as a result. So we did integration and wound up with systemd. 
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Oct 29, 2021 15:56
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Jonny 290 posted:i do not understand why people hate systemd other than grognard poo poo and i in fact quite like it there's definitely a job security angle in that a bespoke set of init scripts, tied together over the years with string and gum and requiring constant janitoring to work properly, is replaced by something that actually works reliably and requires simple, 5 line configuration files that anyone even marginally technically competent can write. systemd is to unix graybeards as the automated telephone switch was to operators
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Oct 29, 2021 16:08
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The_Franz posted:there's definitely a job security angle in that a bespoke set of init scripts, tied together over the years with string and gum and requiring constant janitoring to work properly, is replaced by something that actually works reliably and requires simple, 5 line configuration files that anyone even marginally technically competent can write. systemd is to unix graybeards as the automated telephone switch was to operators i've never written either a sysv init script or a systemd unit file, but this quick tutorial definitely makes me more inclined towards the latter: https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/converting-traditional-sysv-init-scripts-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7-systemd-unit-files however, my understanding is that modern non-systemd distros tend to go for openrc rather than the venerable sysv-init, and the openrc layout seems pretty reasonable to me: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86/Working/Initscripts#Layout
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Oct 29, 2021 16:19
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SYSV Fanfic posted:The unix philosophy (the programs must be kept seperate) aroused around the same time the supreme court said the races couldn't be kept separate. I think people at the time just liked keeping things seperate, because it helped them understand things. Unfortunately we wound up with a lot of race issues in linux as a result. So we did integration and wound up with systemd. powerful username post combo
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Oct 29, 2021 16:21
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my stepdads beer posted:systemd-network when my favorite part is that each distro creates its own network management tool for ethernet and wifi and forgets that anything else exists. so when you want to do something like manage a cellular modem they say "oh uhhhh... install NetworkManager I guess?" and then everything fights each other and nothing works quite the way it should usually you can get pppd working easily enough because i guess thats needed for pppoe but people tend to notice when their lte cat 4 modems are limited to 1 mbit (or comically, 115200)
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Oct 29, 2021 16:28
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Most things that aren't vanilla Debian use NetworkManager these days don't they? idk itjustworks for at least the past five years or so. For its first decade of existence though NetworkManager was indeed flaky and unreliable.
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Oct 29, 2021 16:38
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hobbesmaster posted:everything fights each other and nothing works quite the way it should
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Oct 29, 2021 16:39
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Sapozhnik posted:Most things that aren't vanilla Debian use NetworkManager these days don't they? i think vanilla debian uses it too
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Oct 29, 2021 16:51
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Tatsujin posted:my fav thing about java on linux was all the bs you had to go through just to natively compile tomcat on linux and to use jsvc and mod_jk like why not make that the default if I have to janitor java lmao what? our ee-compliant app server just requires java on order to build, that’s impressively annoying
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Oct 29, 2021 18:12
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yeah ive written several systemd files to turn dumb one-off scripts into a real service. now, of course, if its not a super low level thing that has to run on the host OS i immediately search for `<thing> docker` and if that exists i go for it
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Oct 29, 2021 18:20
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my stepdads beer posted:systemd-network when fwiw ive heard from devops types that that particular component is bad, along with resolved but they might have gotten better by now idk, someone else here might know more and nobody broadly complaining about systemd even knows of the existence of the b-tier cobranded parts
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Oct 29, 2021 21:30
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idk all I know is that the people who make the distro I use worry about all that stuff and I get something that Just Works
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Oct 29, 2021 21:33
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took until just now to realize that the recent microservice/distributed monolith fad can probably be traced back to systemd arguers screaming unix philosophy at everything
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Oct 29, 2021 21:33
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spankmeister posted:idk all I know is that the people who make the distro I use worry about all that stuff and I get something that Just Works as a weirdo who uses linux as a desktop os systemd has never noticeably affected me
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Oct 29, 2021 22:07
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man i fuckin hate resolved. it’s cool maybe 70% of the time, ya I get it. i can’t even chattr +i the motherfucker the other 30%.
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Oct 29, 2021 22:36
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Progressive JPEG posted:fwiw ive heard from devops types that that particular component is bad, along with resolved systemd-resolved does not act like normal resolv.conf by design so if it suits your needs it works great, but otherwise it's f'ing dumb dunno about networkd but CentOS 8 now seems to use nm-cli rather than network-scripts and it's been needs suiting, yeah
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Oct 30, 2021 00:13
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I want to be able to sit down and say “this is Unix. I know this” and have the tomes of manuals I read autistically to have relevance. I used to read the x11 manuals too (a big part of why I dislike wayland, probably ) there’s nothing comparable anymore and the way things fit together don’t make sense. it’s dissonant with my idea of unix history and convention, which seemed pretty great to me. things change too fast now and it’s mostly just red hat winging it. freebsd 5.x felt like a home — linux feels like an airbnb. I don’t like it because I don’t like it and the mental structures I built around BSD are increasingly irrelevant yet aren’t replaced by anything that makes my life better at all. it’s complicated in places I don’t need it to be complicated, and oversimplified in places i want more control. similar with how python took over everything when smalltalk, which actually makes sense and had nice books, was right there (io would have made a good replacement that works better with the Unix model). good books are important to my computing experience. now there’s just terrible man pages, README.md, and web tutorials. i know it sounds like a joke but im serious about unix as a way of structuring the space inside a computer — i knew the building layout, how the furnace worked, how to replace the fuse and so on, and there were good blueprints and product manuals. i feel kind of lost now and need to go to (lovely) docs a lot more because i don’t know how to memorize the new stuff, it doesn’t mesh well with the old knowledge. gently caress esr, cathedrals all the way. mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Oct 30, 2021 |
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Oct 30, 2021 00:41
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mawarannahr posted:I want to be able to sit down and say “this is Unix. I know this” and have the tomes of manuals I read autistically to have relevance. I used to read the x11 manuals too (a big part of why I dislike wayland, probably a good post and i appreciate it
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Oct 30, 2021 00:54
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