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AnEdgelord posted:I dont know, I kind of appreciate how they echo modern american military equipment. There is an interesting Cold War metaphor with the "air and sea power" people teaming up with the space Muslims to fight an evil land power run by a Vladimir. Of course given the time the story was written and where the story goes the comparison falls apart pretty quickly, but there's still some resonance.
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Oct 31, 2021 21:40
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Boris Galerkin posted:Well ok, so the Fremen bribe the Space Guild not to put satellites in orbits. That’s fine and all but I’m asking why House Arteides, a space faring civilization capable of producing spacecraft and going to conquer/settle a planet, who fully knows that it’s a trap and that they’ll be attacked by the previous conquerors of the planet, who’s only avenue of getting to said planet was via space transport, did not send up their own satellites and other defense systems? Leto knew going to Arrakis was a gamble, but he thought that everyone had underestimated the Fremen and that with control of the spice and the local populace he would be strong enough to resist the Emperor's trap. His thinking suggests he was gambling on having months or years to prepare. Instead he had something like ten days. The Atreides just ran out of time to do all of that. They didn't even have time to distribute their fleet, like you saw were hidden in the sea around Caladan. The Harkonnens caught them all sitting on one concrete pad. But also they're probably not going to be allowed to send up satellites, because the guild says no and a guild interdiction will ruin your poo poo instantly. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Oct 31, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 21:46
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Can someone point me to a “Dune explained” YouTube video? There’s enough book spoilers here posted without tags that I don’t really care about spoilers anymore. E: podcast is fine too
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Oct 31, 2021 21:47
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Boris Galerkin posted:Can someone point me to a “Dune explained” YouTube video? There’s enough book spoilers here posted without tags that I don’t really care about spoilers anymore. Search for Quinn’s Ideas; he has a lot of them explaining various aspects
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Oct 31, 2021 21:52
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:On the one hand, this is probably the best depiction of ornithopters put to film. AnEdgelord posted:I dont know, I kind of appreciate how they echo modern american military equipment. If I recall, weren’t they supposed to have bird wings in the book? I like the American military styling, it evokes feelings of America and Russia maneuvering over Afghanistan
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Oct 31, 2021 21:52
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Boris Galerkin posted:Can someone point me to a “Dune explained” YouTube video? There’s enough book spoilers here posted without tags that I don’t really care about spoilers anymore. If time is no obstacle there's this 500 page book that covers it in every detail. I'm pretty sure you can get it in podcast form.
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Oct 31, 2021 21:52
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Arglebargle III posted:If time is no obstacle there's this 500 page book that covers it in every detail. I'm pretty sure you can get it in podcast form. I just want someone to tell me about the book in between telling me to like and subscribe
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Oct 31, 2021 21:54
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Gotta say I wasn't the biggest fan of Josh Borland here. That weird future dialect he tries to speak in sounds clumsy and doesn't really work for him, and he also overacts a lot. Specifically, during the knife fight training scene where his line is "you don't know the Harkonnen, they're BUH-REW-TAL!!" which he basically screams right into Paul's face when it's just the two of them alone in a quiet room felt really forced. Paul wasn't being petulant or defiant, they were just talking. Also, I'm a fan of Jason Momoa but it felt like he was poorly cast for his role. Momoa is naturally too laid back and cavalier to be believable as a highly disciplined military pilot / combat expert / deep cover spy. Like I get what they were going for but that role should have gone to somebody who naturally leans more towards being something like an rear end in a top hat with a heart of gold than just straight up teddy bear surfer bro. For what it's worth though, every other casting choice was spot on and the movie overall was great. GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Oct 31, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 21:55
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It's a good book tho, in a way that's separate from the movie, which is also good
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Oct 31, 2021 21:56
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Everyone knew Arrakis was a trap, but the Atreides believed that they could outsmart the Emperor and the Harkonnens. The problem was that Leto underestimated how quickly they'd move against him, but also the size of the army that the Baron and the Emperor would bring to Arrakis. This is better emphasized in the books, but the Harkonnens spent something like an equivalent of a century of profit in transport fees to bring their legions, along side the Sardaukar. Plus, Yueh was a traitor. The thing about military conflict in the Dune universe is that in most cases its very limited because of how expensive interstellar flight is (due to the guild monopoly). The Atreides were preparing for a limited engagement if there was an invasion, but moreso for a guerrilla war/attempt at economic sabotage. And then they woke up and there was an enormous army in orbit.
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Oct 31, 2021 21:57
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And yea, it seems strange that they don't have any orbital defenses... but as people have said, orbital defenses against what? The guild absolutely controls space and typically you aren't invading planets. What warfare there is usually domestic - a House Major vs Houses Minor - or limited engagements interstellar. Also once ordered the Atreides had two choices: go to Arrakis, or go rogue via bribing the guild.
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Oct 31, 2021 22:00
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Upgrade posted:And yea, it seems strange that they don't have any orbital defenses... but as people have said, orbital defenses against what? The guild absolutely controls space and typically you aren't invading planets. What warfare there is usually domestic - a House Major vs Houses Minor - or limited engagements interstellar. Yeah I wasn’t aware of how much power and control the space guild has.
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Oct 31, 2021 22:03
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Captain von Trapp posted:There is an interesting Cold War metaphor with the "air and sea power" people teaming up with the space Muslims to fight an evil land power run by a Vladimir. Given that the "air and sea power" people end up cynically exploiting the religion of the local people and unleash an uncontrollable wave of religious fundamentalism I don't think the comparison falls apart that quickly. If nothing else its one hell of a called shot from 1965.
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Oct 31, 2021 22:04
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https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-secret-history-of-dune/ tl;dr: Herbert drew a lot of inspiration from a book detailing the history of conflict between muslims and the russian empire in the caucaus in the 19th century, I'm sure he also drew from more contemporary events (and from Lawrence of Arabia), but there's a lot taken from an earlier less known conflict.
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Oct 31, 2021 22:11
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The other thing I wish the movie had emphasized more was how shocking it is to the Atreides that the Fremen are able to kill Sadaukar. There's a scene where a bunch of Fremen casually ambush and kill a Sadaukar patrol and Paul is like "what the gently caress!". In the Dune military hierarchy there's a big gap between the Saduakar and everyone else... until the Fremen arrive.
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Oct 31, 2021 22:12
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AnEdgelord posted:Given that the "air and sea power" people end up cynically exploiting the religion of the local people and unleash an uncontrollable wave of religious fundamentalism I don't think the comparison falls apart that quickly. If nothing else its one hell of a called shot from 1965. Herbert didn't invent the Mahdi, he just made him white and in space
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Oct 31, 2021 22:16
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Upgrade posted:The other thing I wish the movie had emphasized more was how shocking it is to the Atreides that the Fremen are able to kill Sadaukar. There's a scene where a bunch of Fremen casually ambush and kill a Sadaukar patrol and Paul is like "what the gently caress!". In the Dune military hierarchy there's a big gap between the Saduakar and everyone else... until the Fremen arrive. Maybe I'm misremembering, but doesn't Paul realise that the Saudakar have been gliding on their reputation as unbeatable for a while, and once their nose gets bloodied by the Fremen they take a pretty big morale hit.
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Oct 31, 2021 22:17
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Vagabong posted:Maybe I'm misremembering, but doesn't Paul realise that the Saudakar have been gliding on their reputation as unbeatable for a while, and once their nose gets bloodied by the Fremen they take a pretty big morale hit. He realizes it after the fact, and the Sadaukar start a crusade against the Fremen post-Atreides fall because of anger at being bested (and end up sustaining horrific losses that they cover up).
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Oct 31, 2021 22:23
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AnEdgelord posted:Given that the "air and sea power" people end up cynically exploiting the religion of the local people and unleash an uncontrollable wave of religious fundamentalism I don't think the comparison falls apart that quickly. If nothing else its one hell of a called shot from 1965.  Dang that's a good point. Vagabong posted:Maybe I'm misremembering, but doesn't Paul realise that the Saudakar have been gliding on their reputation as unbeatable for a while, and once their nose gets bloodied by the Fremen they take a pretty big morale hit. It's part of a larger theme that's voiced by Leto in a scene that didn't make the cut, where he describes the Great Houses as degenerate. The Sardaukar losing fights, the indecision in the Landsraad, the fact that the Harkonnens get invited to parties at all, the shortsightedness of the Guild in allowing any of this to take place, and the fact that the only rallying symbol the Emperor can call on at the end is the CHOAM flag, are all part of that theme. You get the sense that the current order has been skating on past glories for a very long time. When an existential threat arises the reaction from the elites is disorganized and way too late. The movie gestures in this direction when they say that they could take this to the Landsraad and then dismiss that option. The Landsraad isn't interested in challenging the Emperor to defend its interests. In the book House Ginaz (Duncan's first employer) was recently done dirty in much the same manner as House Atreides and the Landsraad didn't lift a finger. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Oct 31, 2021 |
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Oct 31, 2021 22:32
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GreatGreen posted:Gotta say I wasn't the biggest fan of Josh Borland here. That weird future dialect he tries to speak in sounds clumsy and doesn't really work for him, and he also overacts a lot. Specifically, during the knife fight training scene where his line is "you don't know the Harkonnen, they're BUH-REW-TAL!!" which he basically screams right into Paul's face when it's just the two of them alone in a quiet room felt really forced. Paul wasn't being petulant or defiant, they were just talking. Unfortunately Brolin’s character is barely in the movie, but in the book I believe he was slave that escaped from the Harkonnen’s Most Dangerous Game human hunting mazes. So he really, really hates them (for good reason).
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Oct 31, 2021 22:37
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I went in almost completely blind. Like, I am AWARE of dune, but not of almost any specifics beyond sandworms and paul. took my dad to see it since he's a big fan of the books. I think it could've been shortened by like 20-30 minutes of slow panning shots or repeat shots of the same thing from multiple angles, but other than that, I was enthralled. fascinating and I can absolutely see, if this is just a bare bones representation of the source material, how this became such a legendary, iconic book series. so much of the movie felt like it was doing its best to cram so much of the source into every single scene without just sitting down and exposition dumping, though it did have to do that a few times, it felt like "yeah, I can see how they felt like they didn't have an out to explain this without spending 20 minutes on a derail". just a fantastic film, all the mechanical designs are phenomenal, the sandworms were terrifying, the worldbuilding was insane, the action was mostly great(the melee was whatever, but the vehicle/weapon-based stuff was incredible and terrifying), and the acting was mostly really solid. I'm definitely looking forward to however many more movies they plan to make for this, if they keep up with this quality.
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Oct 31, 2021 23:03
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Boris Galerkin posted:I just want someone to tell me about the book in between telling me to like and subscribe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxq2ztkE0eE Five minutes.
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Oct 31, 2021 23:07
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errrr...stop at 2 minutes if you don’t want to spoil parts 2 and 3!
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Oct 31, 2021 23:09
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Boris Galerkin posted:Yeah I wasn’t aware of how much power and control the space guild has. They barely get mentioned in the movie tbf. I'm starting a re-read now (for the first time in well over a decade - I don't remember it so good) and it's shocking how much exposition there is towards the start that the movie sort of just skips. A lot of it is stuff that's conveyed better onscreen rather in dialogue but there's definitely some worldbuilding missing. I'd say they didn't have time to cram it in but I guess they could have cut five or six Zendaya visions.
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Oct 31, 2021 23:36
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stev posted:They barely get mentioned in the movie tbf. I'm starting a re-read now (for the first time in well over a decade - I don't remember it so good) and it's shocking how much exposition there is towards the start that the movie sort of just skips. A lot of it is stuff that's conveyed better onscreen rather in dialogue but there's definitely some worldbuilding missing. I'd say they didn't have time to cram it in but I guess they could have cut five or six Zendaya visions. I wonder if that was the original intent but Zendaya went all diva and said he had to include everything she filmed.
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Oct 31, 2021 23:50
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No those visions are all pretty important. The opening establishes Chani as a real person who exists. The first vision of her lets us know that Paul has a psychic thing going on and that his dreams are more than just dreams. The next couple of visions of her stop us forgetting she exists and maintain her presence in the film so that we recognise the importance of the moment when she appears to Paul for real.
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Oct 31, 2021 23:59
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4000 Dollar Suit posted:I wonder if that was the original intent but Zendaya went all diva and said he had to include everything she filmed. That's... not how filmmaking works
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Nov 1, 2021 00:15
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Alchenar posted:No those visions are all pretty important. The opening establishes Chani as a real person who exists. The first vision of her lets us know that Paul has a psychic thing going on and that his dreams are more than just dreams. The next couple of visions of her stop us forgetting she exists and maintain her presence in the film so that we recognise the importance of the moment when she appears to Paul for real. Two and a half hours makes for a long movie but I don't think we need to be constantly reminded that Chani exists. I don't remember what a lot of the visions were about, but like the other poster, there did seem to be a lot of dreamlike Chani that had absolutely no payoff in this movie.
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Nov 1, 2021 00:16
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I groaned because there were too many chani visions and they were too similar If there were less, or if they introduced a new idea each time that wouldn’t have been a problem
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Nov 1, 2021 00:19
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Two and a half hours is a long film, but not the almost four hour cut DV made...
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Nov 1, 2021 00:20
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*bangs table* Director's Cut!
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Nov 1, 2021 00:54
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Two and a half hours is a long film, but not the almost four hour cut DV made... This movie has a what now?!
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Nov 1, 2021 01:10
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GORDON posted:especially when added to the mispronunciations of words that exist today (padisha, for example). "Atreides" may be the only "hard" word they didn't mangle. Yes, I realize it's 20k years in the future, and words change.... but the movie was made for 2020 audiences, and to me it hurts my ears. They changed it into "this is a way someone who doesn't understand how to stress syllables properly" says it. That makes it sound dumb, to modern ears. As you noted, "padishah" (correct spelling) is a real, if slightly obscure, word. That they pronounce correctly in the standard way for English, Farsi, Turkish and Urdu, with primary stress on the first syllable and secondary stress on the ultimate. Things like names of the Great Houses could have stress anywhere ; it's a made up fantasy future language and where you put stress varies significantly between languages. Stop making poo poo up to nit pick a movie. It's embarrassing and you're dumb.
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Nov 1, 2021 01:40
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GrandpaPants posted:Two and a half hours makes for a long movie but I don't think we need to be constantly reminded that Chani exists. I don't remember what a lot of the visions were about, but like the other poster, there did seem to be a lot of dreamlike Chani that had absolutely no payoff in this movie. The fact that she's real, and he meets her, and joins her group, is payoff. There really aren't that many visions of Chani. There are three major (i.e. "last longer than a few seconds") ones, and they're usually not just about Chani (one includes holy war stuff, one includes Jamis).
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Nov 1, 2021 01:41
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I was wondering if anyone found that the scenes of Paul's Terrible Purpose failed to communicate that the incoming jihad was a bad thing. It makes sense if you've read the book, but my non-book reader mate thought it was just standard heroic prophecy stuff; aside from the piles of burnt corpses that aren't directly connected to Paul there's not much else giving off bad vibes if your expecting a traditional hero narrative.
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Nov 1, 2021 01:55
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The book is kind of like that too which I think is why Dune Messiah is important for shaking the reader and going "Hey! All that stuff about billions dead is important!"
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Nov 1, 2021 02:01
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For what it's worth, I guess I'm a casual Dune fan, having only read the first book but having a passing acquaintance with what happens in the rest. I loved the movie. Absolutely loved it, 10 out of 10. The set design, the costumes, the casting, the dialogue, everything. In particular the editing and sound design of the Voice stood out at very well thought-out. The pacing seemed just right, and it threads the needle between letting the worldbuilding breathe without too much explanation and letting non-readers catch up. In terms of personal nitpicks, I would say there was probably exactly one too many Zendaya visions, and exactly one too many Hans Zimmer "WAHHHHHHH" screams at dramatic moments. But those are very, very minor nitpicks. My wife, who is not a Dune reader or SF fan at all usually, enjoyed it. Her complaint was the dialogue was a little hard to hear at times, which is understandable when so much of it is faux-arabic delivered with crazed intensity while something loud is happening. She thinks Lady Jessica is shady (understandable) and is pretty sure that Jason Momoa is going to be back. Which is... well, Frank Herbert was on a lot of drugs.
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Nov 1, 2021 02:20
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Vagabong posted:I was wondering if anyone found that the scenes of Paul's Terrible Purpose failed to communicate that the incoming jihad was a bad thing. It makes sense if you've read the book, but my non-book reader mate thought it was just standard heroic prophecy stuff; aside from the piles of burnt corpses that aren't directly connected to Paul there's not much else giving off bad vibes if your expecting a traditional hero narrative. What I took from that scene was that he didn’t feel ok with people murdering in his name but also that he was cool with murdering the fucks who murdered his family. His smug look on the spaceship overlooking his army says as much. Anyway, then he joins up with a bunch of natives and I just don’t see how you could see anything but him being a white savior when his future visions show him leading his new people to glory.
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Nov 1, 2021 02:21
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Boris Galerkin posted:I mean yeah, I can understand why the oppressed civilization of people living in hiding in caves underground would not have satellites or any orbital warning/defense systems. But that doesn’t explain why the great house of atrteides, a space faring civilization with advanced technology, wouldn’t bring any with them when they clearly know that the whole thing is a trap They're expecting trouble, but nothing on the level of what ends up happening. The emperor is backing the Harkonnens with his elite troops, no way they'd want to attack otherwise. They send people into the instead of just carpet bombing it because Baron Harkonnen wants to move back in there afterwards, and they want to ensure that the entire Atreides family is wiped out
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Nov 1, 2021 02:22
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Captain von Trapp posted:Her complaint was the dialogue was a little hard to hear at times
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