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One thing I didn't get is why Paul fights Jamis at all, aside from plot set up reasons. Jessica being a BG she could've easily murked him (and probably every Fremen in that crew) in a matter of minutes right? She neutralized Stilgar in no time at all. I chalked it up to her being pregnant, dehydrated, etc but it makes it seem like the BG weirding way isn't quite as significant in the movies, same as the Fremen getting their combat prowess dialed down to add tension. Also it is very clear that Paul "winning" at the end is a very bad thing. His intent is slightly better but invoking the "desert power" thing (which is such a dad line, I chuckled every time someone said it) to me read as him leaning into the Atreides hubris that fell his father and grandfather.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:29
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Mat Cauthon posted:One thing I didn't get is why Paul fights Jamis at all, aside from plot set up reasons. He doesn't have a choice. Jamis challenges him to a duel to the death that cannot be revoked once challenged, by Fremen law.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:31
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Complications posted:Long story short though was that the move to Arrakis was something that Leto thought was the set up to a more political death blow, not the final lowering of his head to the not quite literal execution block. yeah he was expecting conflict with the Harkonnens, and suspected that it was a plot by the Emperor to weaken both houses. At one point Baron Harkonnen says that the attack on Arrakis- with the emperor's help- cost him all the profits they'd made from Arrakis in the whole time they'd been there. Even without Yuweh's betrayal, it wasn't something Leto could reasonably anticipate
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Nov 1, 2021 16:36
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Every sci-fi fiction has endless "why don't they just ______" about various things. Dune sidesteps that a lot by having every single thing every single person does be part of very very very important set of social rules passed down generation to generation, shared by everyone in the universe and enforced by both cultural and supernatural means.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:40
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To add to Leto's motivation, there's a scene I hope they filmed where Leto confesses to Paul just how big a gamble the move to Arrakis was. Leto is not as confident as he makes himself appear.
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Nov 1, 2021 16:51
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Boris Galerkin posted:Can you use The Voice to command the sand worms? Sand worms don't have ears 
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Nov 1, 2021 16:55
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Boris Galerkin posted:Can you use The Voice to command the sand worms? No. But they respond well to dance.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:01
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Fart Car '97 posted:He doesn't have a choice. Jamis challenges him to a duel to the death that cannot be revoked once challenged, by Fremen law. And Paul owns him several times and tries to make him yield, but that law also prevents that from happening so it literally forces his hand to kill him. Which is also portrayed as sad because iirc one of the visions has Jamis possibly being his friend and mentor.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:02
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Mat Cauthon posted:One thing I didn't get is why Paul fights Jamis at all, aside from plot set up reasons. Jessica being a BG she could've easily murked him (and probably every Fremen in that crew) in a matter of minutes right? She neutralized Stilgar in no time at all. The goal was to integrate with the Fremen, Jessica just using the voice to murder a Fremen patrol does not accomplish that. Following their rules to win the duel does. So she kills the Fremen patrol... and they are locked out of the seitch in the deep desert and die of heat stroke?
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Nov 1, 2021 17:04
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Feldegast42 posted:And Paul owns him several times and tries to make him yield, but that law also prevents that from happening so it literally forces his hand to kill him. On the other hand, the fact that he's a bit more confident about joining the Fremen after suggests that Jamis's death has made him think the future is in flux, and that he might be able to avoid his destiny. Maybe he'll meet Anakin Skywalker at some point and get to ask him how trying to prevent a terrible prophecy usually works
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Nov 1, 2021 17:08
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Neo Rasa posted:I definitely had some trouble too when we saw it at home. When we saw it in theaters though their speakers were balanced really well I guess as we were able to understand everything clearly. We found the dialogue levels so low that we had to do a live remix with the volume control - dramatic scene VOLUME WAY UP, action scene VOLUME WAY DOWN. It is annoying that the mixing in so many modern movies require either this or turning on subtitles to get intelligible dialogue.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:11
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Boris Galerkin posted:All the book readers here are telling me the jihad thing isn’t a positive for Paul but I really think you need to be a book reader to get that. As somebody else has mentioned, it's not as big of a deal until the second novel. The jihad hasn't even begun when the first book ends, and both previous adapations ended on something of a positive note.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:13
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Mat Cauthon posted:One thing I didn't get is why Paul fights Jamis at all, aside from plot set up reasons. Jessica being a BG she could've easily murked him (and probably every Fremen in that crew) in a matter of minutes right? She neutralized Stilgar in no time at all. He fought Jamis for the entirely in-character reason that he was challenged to a duel to the death. If he backed down, good luck ingratiating himself into a warrior society that's really into personal duels of honor to the death. Also, while Jessica is a complete and utter badass, I don't think you have a very good idea of how hard it is to fight 20 dudes with god drat knives. Like, sure, that happens in movies sometimes, but actually think about how hard it would be to fight a bunch of people with knives who are trying to straight up murder you (and PS we know they also have at least one gun and these are also the people who you're banking on to help you out). Like, it's not a crazy thing to happen in a movie ever, cause fiction can do whatever it wants, but there has been no set up for Jessica doing that kind of thing. It's a buck-wild assumption to make that she could do that. Especially because it's only a few minutes removed in the narrative from the biggest badass we've seen in the movie (Duncan) dying heroically in a last stand against like 6 dudes. Were you really expecting her to turn into Neo or something? You've gone beyond the "it's a flaw if the character doesn't do what I think is optimal" and you're firmly in the "why doesn't The Crucible end with John Proctor drawing his way out of the hanging like Harold and the loving Purple Crayon?????" I liked the movie, but it's not perfect and I came here to have a discussion about it. I'm staying cause every page or so some goon says the most absolutely bonkers poo poo based on the loving LSD shadow puppets that live in their heads.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:15
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uXs posted:For a movie that pays this much attention to detail, it was very weird to see the Shadout Mapes sheath the Crysknife without drawing blood. She does this in the book too, because she's overwhelmed by the religious revelations and forgets. Jessica is the one who brings it up.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:15
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Feldegast42 posted:And Paul owns him several times and tries to make him yield, but that law also prevents that from happening so it literally forces his hand to kill him. Visions are not always literal. In my mind that vision was fulfilled. Jamis did the best thing he could for Paul teaching him the lesson he needed to learn. Basically that the desert is without mercy and you can't spare someone because you lack the strength to make the tough choices. It also establishes Paul as a man worth the Fremen's time and effort to help.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:19
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mossyfisk posted:She does this in the book too, because she's overwhelmed by the religious revelations and forgets. Jessica is the one who brings it up. quote:Mapes returned knife to sheath, said: "This is an unfixed blade, my Lady. Keep it near you. More than a week away from flesh and it begins to disintegrate. It's yours, a tooth of shai-hulud, for as long as you live."
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Nov 1, 2021 17:24
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Here's a quick and surely point-missing logistical question: in the books, how do the Fremen physically get off the planet to do their Jihad? Extorting the Guild with the threat of cutting off the spice? Getting blasted on drugs and flying the ships themselves?
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Nov 1, 2021 17:28
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There's a nuanced point about the duel as well - Jamis is pissed off at Paul because Paul knocks him down and gets his gun and that's embarrassed him, but he isn't challenging Paul, he's challenging Jessica knowing that Paul will have to be her champion. Paul is compelled to accept the challenge because the alternative is his mom gets left behind to die.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:32
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Yeah, Paul bullies the Guild into doing whatever he wants. His threat is that he will destroy all spice forever via a complete bullshit method that makes no sense, don't worry about it.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:34
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Captain von Trapp posted:Here's a quick and surely point-missing logistical question: in the books, how do the Fremen physically get off the planet to do their Jihad? Extorting the Guild with the threat of cutting off the spice? Getting blasted on drugs and flying the ships themselves? I think it's definitely the former, Paul was holding all spice production hostage and so the guild had to comply. Of course they were so uneasy about this that then dune messiah happened
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Nov 1, 2021 17:34
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Vagabong posted:Which is a shame that the films kinda fails to communicate Paul's fear of the future he sees, because his attempts to avoid it adds tension to a story where the protagonist becomes omniscient halfway through. This is basically the (or, a major one) theme of dune and dune messiah, it’s kinda a gently caress up Hopefully it’s made clear in the second movie.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:35
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Captain von Trapp posted:Here's a quick and surely point-missing logistical question: in the books, how do the Fremen physically get off the planet to do their Jihad? Extorting the Guild with the threat of cutting off the spice? Getting blasted on drugs and flying the ships themselves? There is an answer but it is a MAJOR spoiler Paul learns of a way to poison the spice creation process so that no more spice is produced ever again. He outright threatens the Guild that if they do not comply with his rule and ferry his armies that he will do this and destroy humanity's capacity for interstellar travel.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:39
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Mat Cauthon posted:One thing I didn't get is why Paul fights Jamis at all, aside from plot set up reasons. Jessica being a BG she could've easily murked him (and probably every Fremen in that crew) in a matter of minutes right? She neutralized Stilgar in no time at all. I think Jessica should have just fought off the entire Harkonnen attack to begin with, and saved herself the later trouble. 
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Nov 1, 2021 17:56
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Xiahou Dun posted:I liked the movie, but it's not perfect and I came here to have a discussion about it. I'm staying cause every page or so some goon says the most absolutely bonkers poo poo based on the loving LSD shadow puppets that live in their heads. I'm not nitpicking it. I loved the movie and am not criticizing the plot, it's just a point of curiosity. Take it down a notch. Alchenar posted:There's a nuanced point about the duel as well - Jamis is pissed off at Paul because Paul knocks him down and gets his gun and that's embarrassed him, but he isn't challenging Paul, he's challenging Jessica knowing that Paul will have to be her champion. Paul is compelled to accept the challenge because the alternative is his mom gets left behind to die. I mean, that's the thing - Paul didn't have to accept, his mom could've killed Jamis herself just as easily. Jessica was easily the most lethal person there in a single combat scenario. That said, it makes sense why it went down the way it did. Paul's reasoning as much as about wanting to protect his mother as needing to prove himself to the Fremen. Which speaks to how he falls back on the usual political scheming stuff even if he (somewhat) knows better. I wonder if that would've come through stronger had they included more about his mentat training.
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Nov 1, 2021 17:58
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Stilgar says Jessica isn't allowed to duel, I think I remember.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:00
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Crespolini posted:Stilgar says Jessica isn't allowed to duel, I think I remember. Yeah as a Bene Gesserit, Jessica is a holy woman to the Fremen and thus cannot fight in duels. They can still be challenged though and an appointed champion has to fight on their behalf, which is exactly what happens.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:04
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Captain von Trapp posted:Here's a quick and surely point-missing logistical question: in the books, how do the Fremen physically get off the planet to do their Jihad? Extorting the Guild with the threat of cutting off the spice? Getting blasted on drugs and flying the ships themselves? Not really an answer to this, but regular old FTL *does* exist in the dune universe separate from and pre-dating spice.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:10
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Crespolini posted:Stilgar says Jessica isn't allowed to duel, I think I remember. Ah okay. I guess the BG must've really prepared for all situations with their religious prophecy seeding.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:10
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Xiahou Dun posted:He fought Jamis for the entirely in-character reason that he was challenged to a duel to the death. If he backed down, good luck ingratiating himself into a warrior society that's really into personal duels of honor to the death. Let it go IMO
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Nov 1, 2021 18:10
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In the movie Yueh is just blackmailed, but if I recall correctly in the book he is mentally conditioned and literally incapable of harming his masters so the Harkonnen had to reprogram him. Can somebody remind me how they did that?
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Nov 1, 2021 18:11
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Mat Cauthon posted:One thing I didn't get is why Paul fights Jamis at all, aside from plot set up reasons. Jessica being a BG she could've easily murked him (and probably every Fremen in that crew) in a matter of minutes right? She neutralized Stilgar in no time at all. also in the books the Fremen understand what the voice is. They call it "witchcraft" and you can only voice one person at a time cuz you have to figure out the pitch/tune to use etc. So it's not AoE Stilgiar basically goes "yeah I know you can beat any of us but the rest of us will just kill you"
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Nov 1, 2021 18:16
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Chernabog posted:In the movie Yueh is just blackmailed, but if I recall correctly in the book he is mentally conditioned and literally incapable of harming his masters so the Harkonnen had to reprogram him. Can somebody remind me how they did that? By blackmail. (Its kinda silly, which is probably why it was cut- there's also an aspect that Yueh is rationalizing to himself that the Atreides are doomed and he's actually giving them an out by letting Paul and Jessica escape)
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Nov 1, 2021 18:17
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Dueling jamis was also a nice loop back to the beginning of the movie when Gurney told him "you fight out of necessity", also the gom jabbar scene (it's a test where failure means death in both cases) the movie was very underwhelming in how it considering that it's the climax of Paul's journey in the 1st half of the book. The miniseries from 20 yrs ago did a better job at choreographing it In movie Jamis seem to know he's hosed like 5 seconds into the fight in the miniseries/books it's way drawn out so he feels like a real threat Typo fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Nov 1, 2021 |
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Nov 1, 2021 18:19
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Mat Cauthon posted:I'm not nitpicking it. I loved the movie and am not criticizing the plot, it's just a point of curiosity. Take it down a notch. I’m not defending the movie, it does a good job of that all by itself. I just like making fun of people who do demonstrably stupid things, like wonder about things the movie obviously showed or just make poo poo up.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:21
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I reread dune 1+2 and then rewatched this and I'm warming up on it a lot. It's not how I would prefer this narrative portrayed but I do think it's a successful, if slightly clunky, adaptation of it. I'm still fairly skeptical this aesthetic can survive into book 2+ though without it becoming very 'superhero film' but part 2 should be cool.
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Nov 1, 2021 18:24
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also come on shadeout mapes drew the crysknife w/o shedding blood!
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Nov 1, 2021 18:25
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Police_monitoring posted:I reread dune 1+2 and then rewatched this and I'm warming up on it a lot. It's not how I would prefer this narrative portrayed but I do think it's a successful, if slightly clunky, adaptation of it. I'm still fairly skeptical this aesthetic can survive into book 2+ though without it becoming very 'superhero film' but part 2 should be cool. I don't see how you can possibly adapt book 2/3 at all into a movie meant for general audience
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Nov 1, 2021 18:42
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Not really an answer to this, but regular old FTL *does* exist in the dune universe separate from and pre-dating spice. I don’t think it does. Prior to spice, didn’t they rely on advanced, AI supercomputers which are now outlawed and religiously banned? Typo posted:also come on shadeout mapes drew the crysknife w/o shedding blood! Check, like, 10 posts up thread...
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Nov 1, 2021 18:42
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Typo posted:I don't see how you can possibly adapt book 2/3 at all into a movie meant for general audience Lots of big CG battles is my guess
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Nov 1, 2021 18:56
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Typo posted:the movie was very underwhelming in how it considering that it's the climax of Paul's journey in the 1st half of the book. The miniseries from 20 yrs ago did a better job at choreographing it Which is really why it feels like the movie just ends. They could have either made a bigger thing out of the duel to make it feel like more of a climactic moment (ie Fellowship of the Ring merging the ending of the book with the beginning of Two Towers and making the whole thing feel bigger) or done more to sell it being a huge character moment for Paul. They did neither so it feels like the movie ended because they'd reached the halfway point of the book rather than because there was a cinematic conclusion.
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