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sb hermit posted:I like makefiles and I still make and use them. Same, it's my preferred tool for "have to automate some random stuff in a folder"
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# ? Nov 2, 2021 19:20 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 18:54 |
sb hermit posted:I like makefiles and I still make and use them.
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# ? Nov 2, 2021 19:29 |
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AnimeIsTrash posted:i like linux ya its pretty good
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# ? Nov 2, 2021 19:32 |
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Meson is the least-terrible build system for C/C++ these days, followed by CMake.
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# ? Nov 2, 2021 20:17 |
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Shaggar posted:lol the unix philosophy is dumb as hell with shaggar on this one. there's a reason everybody uses python on unix nowadays instead of chaining together terribly named string processing utilities from the 70s
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# ? Nov 2, 2021 22:14 |
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animist posted:with shaggar on this one. there's a reason everybody uses python on unix nowadays instead of chaining together terribly named string processing utilities from the 70s how did you miss "awkwardly named"
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# ? Nov 2, 2021 22:25 |
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AnimeIsTrash posted:i like linux same.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 04:01 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Have you seen all the fun that can be done with BSD make? No, and I'm not going to read an entire man page to find out. My 20 year old self might be curious but now I'm twice as old and I only have time for sleep and shitposting after working too much. and anime too, of course
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 04:56 |
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AnimeIsTrash posted:i like linux
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:04 |
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It's not just configurations and data stored in flat text. People expect the kernel (and system) to expose interfaces directly as plain files. There's nothing wrong with /proc and /sys/. Making everything a file allows the kernel to dispatch all reads and writes through the vfs. It's less clunky than adding a bunch of system calls, or ioctl calls. It's easy for a human to parse and understand. If you don't know a lot about linux user space - one of the ways you can get notifications from the kernel is to open one of the files in /proc or /sys and read from it. If your program needs to know if the lid just closed, you just open a file, read the messages in text, parse them to see if they contain "lid", and respond to the lid event. Your program will pause by default until there is an event to read. It's a royal headache trying to synchronize a bunch of disparate individual daemons via those interfaces. Race conditions, stalled reads, and missed messages. If you wondered why you had to close the lid of your laptop four times for it to sleep under linux, you either had a buggy lid switch or the daemon responsible for sending the system to sleep failed to get and respond to the event . Or the bugginess with attaching headphones or speakers to your computer. One of the complaints about systemd was that it added an intermediary layer between the daemons, the desktop environment, and whatever else stopped reading files from proc or connecting to individual sockets. Now it was more complicated than "file". Debian opts out of binary logs, but I assume they were a win for enterprise installs that parse thousands of log events a second. hobbesmaster posted:how did you miss "awkwardly named"
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:24 |
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Like. Early on I was against systemd on the basis poettering seemed like a jerk. The first time I ever really dug into desktop internals was in the early chromebook days. Getting linux to run before seabios was included. The acer c710 had *really, really* buggy hardware. On chromeos it wasn't a problem because they had hard coded fixes, or got rid of so much userland that it didn't matter. I fixed the worst of them, but seeing the sausage for the first time was a massive eye opener. Later I wanted to fix the fact that there was no way to turn on aspect correction on the external hdmi of intel integrated graphics. The kernel driver supported it, but X did not. It seemed like something that should be easy to implement. I started looking at xrandr, xlib, and xproto. It was like that scene in ghostbusters where they open the refridgerator door and see some alternate plane of reality. Sorry, but all that old poo poo needs to go. SYSV Fanfic fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Nov 3, 2021 |
# ? Nov 3, 2021 05:41 |
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animist posted:with shaggar on this one. there's a reason everybody uses python on unix nowadays instead of chaining together terribly named string processing utilities from the 70s lmao let me just, uh, install pandas and theano, two very well named python utilites
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 06:56 |
eschaton posted:it’s really something to use, say, V7 and see just how spare it is compared to a modern BSD, even moreso to skim the code You know that little thing called stack sizes? Yeah, it didn't even have that. Stack sizes were introduced with 4BSD.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 14:33 |
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hobbesmaster posted:how did you miss "awkwardly named" that's tr-ible
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 14:45 |
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hobbesmaster posted:how did you miss "awkwardly named" catastrophically named
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 14:59 |
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the unix philosophy is hagiography. unix was some people building something because they needed it and trying some interesting ideas along the way. some of those ideas worked and some didn't. there is no coherent theory of system design to extract from unix because the people building it did not have one.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 16:26 |
sb hermit posted:No, and I'm not going to read an entire man page to find out. What makes you say that "reading an entire man page" makes it not worth it? As far as I'm concerned, they're a concise way of looking up something - ie. treating it as a reference work. And what's the alternative - GNU info?
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 19:19 |
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oh gently caress off reading dense technical manuals in pursuit of some nebulous unspecified “fun” thing is not a reasonable request you lunatic
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 19:52 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I'm curious about this attitude, it's not exactly uncommon among Linux users. good job being an even worse poster than notorious bsd, its an impressive accomplishment. you should be...proud?
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 19:54 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I'm curious about this attitude, it's not exactly uncommon among Linux users.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 20:01 |
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no one in the 90s thought that casually linearly reading through a man page from top to bottom was anything but a huge waste of time. if bsd make has some relevant feature feel free to post about it, but i think even with a very short compelling summary i am incredibly unlikely to use it (or even read that post).
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 20:16 |
Wait, since when is any reference work "something you read from top to bottom" instead of quickly look through to find what you need? I wanted to demonstrate the things things that set BSD make apart, and the manual page lists all of them, that's all. Instead I'm apparently now Posting Enemy #1.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 20:20 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Wait, since when is any reference work "something you read from top to bottom" instead of quickly look through to find what you need? let me just go reference the make man page section "the stupid poo poo that blanksystemdaemon is opaquely posting about" real quick
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 20:22 |
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protip: you can search manpages by pressing / in man I'm kind of amazed that GNU info is so lovely though considering how much documentation is in that format. How is that in tyool 2021 we don't have an info replacement that uses the mouse? don't say emacs
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 20:24 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Wait, since when is any reference work "something you read from top to bottom" instead of quickly look through to find what you need? Ganoo slash Make is the best Make Although I admit BSD make does have some neat features, GNU Make is way more powerful overall
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 20:28 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Wait, since when is any reference work "something you read from top to bottom" instead of quickly look through to find what you need? i think the idea is that if you present something as comparatively unique you should itemize the things you feel are unique rather than say posting a link to the entire reference document for the tool and telling the people you're conversing with to figure it out themselves. otoh, the way you did it is true to the *nix experience
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 21:30 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I'm curious about this attitude, it's not exactly uncommon among Linux users. I'm not going to rehash the good points that a lot of other people made. But I agree that man pages are better than GNU info. However, when reading man pages, I would generally search directly for whatever I'm looking for, rather than leisurely read it from top to bottom to really absorb the information, then compare it against gnu make. I wouldn't be above doing it if I had a jack and coke and some free time, though.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 21:52 |
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Also, my above statements might be influenced by the fact that I generally pass no parameters to make except the targets to be generated. And usually, the first target in my makefiles is "all", so I usually pass no arguments anyway. If I had to compare make behavior between gnu and bsd, I'd have to actually open two manpages. I think the only parameter I know is "-C" which is "change to this directory first, before running any makefiles". Very useful for shell scripting.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 21:59 |
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i am kind of cranky because i was fooled into spending 5 minutes of my one short life scanning a manpage for something that looked good and the obviously different thing were absolutely horrendous-looking stuff like really bad for loops: i am perfectly willing to believe that there are good things in there too, but it would probably take an hour of cross-referencing manpages for rather crufty tools to tell what they are.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 22:09 |
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i am kind of cranky because i was fooled into spending 5 minutes of my one short life scanning a manpage for something that looked good and the obviously different thing were absolutely horrendous-looking stuff like really bad for loops: This is gold! Thank you. I would never use for loops in a makefile... I imagine it would not be fun to explain to someone who had to maintain it. Might as well just use a script to loop over a set.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 22:18 |
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i like info. the keyboard shortcuts/nav is a bit confusing but decent info docs at least present you with a table of contents, so you have some idea where to find poo poo there's ways to dump info and man pages to html or read them in a browser. man has a --html option, KDE's browser lets you read info pages on the system, gnome has a tool called yelp that displays man and info pages that i think lets you use a mouse
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 22:41 |
infernal machines posted:i think the idea is that if you present something as comparatively unique you should itemize the things you feel are unique rather than say posting a link to the entire reference document for the tool and telling the people you're conversing with to figure it out themselves. BlankSystemDaemon posted:Mind you, BSD Makefiles contain conditionals, built-ins, more variable types, extensive modifiers, looping, and special attributes not found in other versions of make - but they're all documented in make(1). I can see why people might not link the two though, so I apologize for coming off as an asshat. mystes posted:do all posters with bsd-related names live in the 90s or something? The issue is, the code is influenced by bits dating that far back. Poopernickel posted:protip: you can search manpages by pressing / in man In the BSDs, (compressed) mdoc files are stored on-disk and are rendered by mandoc then displayed by the less(1) pager (by default, unless you set PAGER to something else or define LESS_IS_MORE to a non-zero value. Also, I just found out that less has --mouse, which is kinda cool. Besides, we all know emacs is a perfectly fine OS - it's just a shame about the lack of good editor.
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 23:24 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Is that a difference between Linux and the BSDs I didn't know about until just now? Manpages and texinfo documents are different things on Linux, displayed by different tools. Linux manpages work like you said, or something close to it. Texinfo documents are more like books. "info <FOO>" will give you the texinfo document if it's available, or the manpage otherwise. As an example - if the "make-doc" package installed on your Linux, you can read the entire GNU Make manual (HTML here: https://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/index.html) by running "info make".
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# ? Nov 3, 2021 23:36 |
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Poopernickel posted:As an example - if the "make-doc" package installed on your Linux, you can read the entire GNU Make manual (HTML here: https://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/index.html) by running "info make". * - if by "read the entire GNU Make manual" you mean "be dumped into a horrible quasi hypertext interface to said manual, implemented in emacs" hope you know emacs keybinds, sucker
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# ? Nov 4, 2021 01:35 |
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gnu info would be about a thousand times better if it consisted of invoking the web browser of your choice on HTML docs (lynx if no graphical browser is available, obvs)
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# ? Nov 4, 2021 01:37 |
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so many man pages in gnu land end with “for more detailed documentation type “info progname”” it’s impressive their insistence on writing actually decent documentation and locking it behind a tool that nobody outside of actual gnu fanatics will ever actually intentionally touch because it’s *so bad* props to whoever it was who PMed me an alternative tool for reading texinfo docs but honestly the fact that such a thing exists is a testament to how bad the idea of gnu info is
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# ? Nov 4, 2021 01:51 |
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Keeping info horrible is in the best interest of the GNU project. How else are they going to sell printed documentation?
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# ? Nov 4, 2021 02:33 |
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Kazinsal posted:so many man pages in gnu land end with “for more detailed documentation type “info progname”” what's the alt tool? I like GNU tools and documentation, but emacs and GNU info can ligma
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# ? Nov 4, 2021 02:54 |
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BobHoward posted:* - if by "read the entire GNU Make manual" you mean "be dumped into a horrible quasi hypertext interface to said manual, implemented in emacs" agreed, GNU info is hot garbage even if the underlying documents are good
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# ? Nov 4, 2021 02:57 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 18:54 |
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Poopernickel posted:what's the alt tool? I like GNU tools and documentation, but emacs and GNU info can ligma pinfo, it's lynx-style instead of emacs-style
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# ? Nov 4, 2021 03:02 |