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Quixzlizx posted:You realize that by twisting yourself into knots to defend your argument, you're actually arguing for the other side by admitting that historically it's not as simple as occupying enemy territory and forcing an unconditional surrender/annexation. I acknowledge the historical reality that annexing vast swathes of land is not feasible due to all the factors noted above—population resistance to occupation, internal politics, etc. and the thread has been good about providing counter examples. My one specific goony gripe is that the limiting factor in both EU4 and Victoria to how much you can annex is warscore rather than these other historical realities. It irks me that I can achieve a complete victory and feel artificially limited. To provide a more constructive counterexample: in HOI4 you absolutely can achieve a complete victory and make vast changes to the map. The limiting factor is mostly that you’re competing with your fellow victors about what changes you want. The limitations flow more naturally from the victory system. To tie this back to Victoria 3: I really like the diplomatic play system as proposed, but what I balk at is that it feels like you’re artificially limited in your demands. If you’re pushing towards a complete victory, it would be nice to be able to expand your demands to accommodate this, maybe through a second diplomatic play that plays out among the victors of that side regarding what demands get added. Victoria 2 already had a system like this—as a war played out you could add more demands so long as you had a prior casus belli for it and sufficient jingoism.
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Oct 29, 2021 23:12
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As I said earlier, so far there is no evidence that you can't make a diplomatic play while already at war. I think it's reasonable to assume that you can use that to expand the scope of a war.
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Oct 29, 2021 23:49
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:the mexicans had a hard time controlling mexico in th e19th century and its not like they were shy about the occasional massacre. the us wouldnt have stood a chance They focus on Texas in most anlgo places but there were like 15 placename republics contemporary with it. It is kinda hilarious that for a short while the slaver rebellion allied with the yucatán maya rebellion and they did incompetent piracy together.
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Oct 30, 2021 14:01
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VostokProgram posted:As I said earlier, so far there is no evidence that you can't make a diplomatic play while already at war. I think it's reasonable to assume that you can use that to expand the scope of a war. They specifically say you can’t do that. Like if you can then it’s not actually different than the current diplomacy system. I guess it would have extra steps?
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Oct 30, 2021 14:27
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https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1455912664937291784 This is gonna be a big one.
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Nov 3, 2021 16:15
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Pakled posted:https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1455912664937291784 It'll likely just be about some drat fool thing in the Balkans.
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Nov 3, 2021 17:56
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I'm hype.
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Nov 3, 2021 19:35
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There's no war in the game, we put the time and resources into a railroad designer instead. Go home!
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Nov 3, 2021 19:41
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https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1456305489856315400?t=W00ItlnzPn_hWQVuL_1d1g&s=19
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Nov 4, 2021 18:02
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quote:The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies.  11/10 GOTY 2022 or 2023 congrats Wiz, you've made the perfect Victoria. Cantorsdust fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 18:07
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ThaumPenguin posted:https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1456305489856315400?t=W00ItlnzPn_hWQVuL_1d1g&s=19 Personally I like clicking on regiments and making them shoot guns at each other, but I know a lot of people were for this kind of abstraction. And it still sounds interesting. I still want 3D models tho
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Nov 4, 2021 18:07
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I DARED THEM TI REMOVE UNITS AS DISCRETE MAP TOKENS AMD THEY DID IT THE ABSOLUTE MADMEN
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Nov 4, 2021 18:10
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The whole Vicky 3 team is insane. I love it! I think it fits better for the type of game this is. In other games, stack management and such make attrition and losses mostly a result of bad decisions. This system should make war much more of a steady grind, costly even if you have superiority. And the pop system meant that the wargame system was kind of stretched in V2, like small nations only being able to field 0-1 regiments in war and thus being entirely helpless. This plays into the best part of Vicky warfare, that losing soldiers has direct impact on your nation besides just having less soldiers. Zeron fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 18:11
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Huh. The principles sound very cool, at least. It also sounds easier for an AI to handle than specifically moving regiments around.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:11
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Best Game Ever status achieved
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Nov 4, 2021 18:12
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I'm shocked nobody thought to do that sooner. I mused about how the discrete units in a game like civ don't really make sense at the level of abstraction they operate at but it's nice to see paradox giving a more abstract warfare model a go.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:12
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Gort posted:Huh. The principles sound very cool, at least. It also sounds easier for an AI to handle than specifically moving regiments around. Not only that but an AI can't game it with perfect micro of units, either. Between front-based wars and diplomatic plays potentially ending a war before it begins, I think a lot of tedium of slowly occupying a country in a war you're obviously going to win will be removed.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:13
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Panzeh posted:I'm shocked nobody thought to do that sooner. I mused about how the discrete units in a game like civ don't really make sense at the level of abstraction they operate at but it's nice to see paradox giving a more abstract warfare model a go. There was a game called realpolitik that attempted it. It had potential but some balance issues and was janky even when working. I figure pdox should be able to iterate on it better than a broke rear end indie studio. Anywhere where's my mobilization planning mechnic paradox
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Nov 4, 2021 18:18
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I love this idea, will be such an interesting departure to not having to intensely micro-manage your exact troop movements in real time across the globe. I noticed though in previous dev diaries we got screen shots and examples, with this one we only got the vague and general ideology of the design. Would loved to have seen what these fronts and things actually look like and how they work.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:23
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That crazy bastard's doing it, he's abstracting the warfare! It's already beautiful and perfect and I love it.Baronjutter posted:I love this idea, will be such an interesting departure to not having to intensely micro-manage your exact troop movements in real time across the globe. I noticed though in previous dev diaries we got screen shots and examples, with this one we only got the vague and general ideology of the design. Would loved to have seen what these fronts and things actually look like and how they work.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:26
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I think it's something they're working on getting implemented. There's not a lot of old games for guidance on how to make this stuff work.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:30
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Baronjutter posted:I love this idea, will be such an interesting departure to not having to intensely micro-manage your exact troop movements in real time across the globe. I noticed though in previous dev diaries we got screen shots and examples, with this one we only got the vague and general ideology of the design. Would loved to have seen what these fronts and things actually look like and how they work. I think they are expecting this to be very controversial, so they want to give a basic overview first so the base outrage can calm down before they start giving details. Well, it also seems likely to be very complex so we wouldn't really have any context for any screenshots. I imagine they'll go over each aspect individually going forward.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:33
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Agean90 posted:There was a game called realpolitik that attempted it. It had potential but some balance issues and was janky even when working. I figure pdox should be able to iterate on it better than a broke rear end indie studio. I played Realpolitik. It was okay. It had Victoria elements including a focus on your internal economy, resources, etc, though no pops explicitly. Its war system was good but needed reworking. You had a pool of units--troops, tanks, planes, and ships. Ships were only used to provide transport to overseas wars--you couldn't start an overseas war without at least one ship. Otherwise no significant naval component. The other 3 units were used in operations. Each side could run one operation at a time, things like "Secure the cities" or "Tank offensive", etc. Each operation used a certain amount of units and provided a certain amount of warscore or enemy units destroyed if it succeeded. Operations were opposed by the enemy's forces. It sounds good and worked well on the small scale. But if two major powers got into war with each other, the limitation of running one operation at a time meant neither side could weaken the other fast enough to win a war. Your only hope would be to blitz to a 100% warscore victory and force a capitulation within the first month or two of mobilization. Otherwise, your opponent could rebuild troops faster than you could kill them, and neither side would be able to claim victory. I had multiple instances were India and China would be locked in a hellwar for over 2 decades, one side or the other trying to make the final push to the capital, but not quite making it, as the other side furiously built more units.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:33
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I am loving the comments on the dev diary. About 2/3 "This is amazing! I can't wait to see more!" and 1/3 "This is literally the dumbest thing ever, you just killed the game"
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Nov 4, 2021 18:46
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Wow, I never thought they'd actually do it. Color me skeptical, and I did enjoy moving units around in other Paradox games (though not Vicky 2), but if they could pull it off, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:55
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Baronjutter posted:I love this idea, will be such an interesting departure to not having to intensely micro-manage your exact troop movements in real time across the globe. I noticed though in previous dev diaries we got screen shots and examples, with this one we only got the vague and general ideology of the design. Would loved to have seen what these fronts and things actually look like and how they work. We'll be talking details in the upcoming dev diaries, for this one we wanted to focus on the underlying vision.
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Nov 4, 2021 18:57
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Zeron posted:I think they are expecting this to be very controversial, so they want to give a basic overview first so the base outrage can calm down before they start giving details. Well, it also seems likely to be very complex so we wouldn't really have any context for any screenshots. I imagine they'll go over each aspect individually going forward. Wizzington posted:Yes, and wars can also end in negotiated peace with both sides taking and losing things - but more on that later!
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Nov 4, 2021 19:03
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Panzeh posted:I'm shocked nobody thought to do that sooner. I mused about how the discrete units in a game like civ don't really make sense at the level of abstraction they operate at but it's nice to see paradox giving a more abstract warfare model a go. yeah i'm definitely interested but i'd like to see the details next week
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Nov 4, 2021 19:03
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It also occurs to me that a more abstracted war system would probably help with low-intensity wars that might be silly in previous games- something like Islandwana or the first Anglo-Afghan war comes off as weird in vicky 2 style
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Nov 4, 2021 19:05
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Kaza42 posted:I am loving the comments on the dev diary. About 2/3 "This is amazing! I can't wait to see more!" and 1/3 "This is literally the dumbest thing ever, you just killed the game" CA dad but with mutton chops leaps out the window screaming “I want to move my counters”
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Nov 4, 2021 19:06
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I also really hope we get some sort of "enforce [laws]" wargoal/demand. So my revolutionary communist power can go around liberating the working class by forcing nations to adopt worker-owned economies and full democracy. I don't need puppets or imperialism, just make em red and black. And of course the reverse would be cool too, conservative states banding together to force countries with dangerous ideas of equality to abandon said dangerous ideas.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:07
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I am especially curious as to how this would look like for Napoleonic stuff, but I am definitely positively intrigued.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:08
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Baronjutter posted:I also really hope we get some sort of "enforce [laws]" wargoal/demand. So my revolutionary communist power can go around liberating the working class by forcing nations to adopt worker-owned economies and full democracy. I don't need puppets or imperialism, just make em red and black. We saw that you can do a diplomatic play to outlaw slavery last week, so this is definitely possible (although may need mods or patches to flesh out more)
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Nov 4, 2021 19:14
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of all the insane features theyve shown so far, not being able to micro is surprisingly the one I'm most excited for. if you want tactics though, I highly suggest buying the popular grand strategy game, Football Manager.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:16
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StashAugustine posted:It also occurs to me that a more abstracted war system would probably help with low-intensity wars that might be silly in previous games- something like Islandwana or the first Anglo-Afghan war comes off as weird in vicky 2 style Kaza42 posted:We saw that you can do a diplomatic play to outlaw slavery last week, so this is definitely possible (although may need mods or patches to flesh out more)
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Nov 4, 2021 19:19
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Wiz posted:We'll be talking details in the upcoming dev diaries, for this one we wanted to focus on the underlying vision. You’re a king, Wiz. I’m sure you’re going to hear a lot of whining but this was the right move for Vicky 3.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:22
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Not gonna lie what’s been revealed about war sounds insanely boring
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Nov 4, 2021 19:26
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Yeah biggest hope is that this system will be able to simulate small-scale and asymmetrical wars a lot better. If you have to balance fronts with garrisons and are hampered by distance it makes it a lot easier to show how a small or pre-industrial state might hold off the European empires. The UK didn't mobilize two million conscripts to fight the Zulu after all. Saw someone in the thread compare it to the Hearts of Iron 4 naval system and I'm pretty alright with that. Allocate a force to broad area and let them figure out themselves as opposed to labouriously clicking on 30k stacks and feeding them in to the endless grinder. Edit: also excited to see how civil wars and especially revolts are handled. Can revolts get foreign support, or can the state fighting revolt get help like all those Allied troops in Russia during the Bolshevik Kerfuffle. That'd be fun. Also also proxy wars on some level but I guess that's outside the time period. I dunno I'm just excited for this video game even if I don't plan on buying it. DaysBefore fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Nov 4, 2021 |
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Nov 4, 2021 19:29
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I've always found war in paradox games "insanely boring" so I'm really excited to see something totally different. If they can pull it off it can actually boil down war into a series of actual meaningful player choices rather than spending 20 min click click clicking unit orders to chase down those last rebels.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:30
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nice, I'm very happy about the abstraction away from moving individual units. HOI4 already does frontlines that you assign units to and the AI tries to distribute them across the provinces that make up the frontline. I wonder if we will see the same thing here, or if it is even more abstracted than that.
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Nov 4, 2021 19:34
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