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Do the books ever reveal what formed the hand of god formation on the larger moon? I’m assuming it’s from when whatever space god squatted over arakkis to poo poo space worms all over it and gripped the moon for balance.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:02
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Cacator posted:Wasn't the Terror supposed to be good? Never read it but heard the show was alright. Can confirm that The Terror is quite good. The only caveat is that I came to the book via the TV series, which was stellar, so I was already onboard for the novel. Coming to the novel having not seen the TV series I can't really say whether anybody would enjoy it or not.
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Nov 6, 2021 17:50
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Defiance Industries posted:Leto II said that the Butlerian Jihad wasn't about machines, but about machine thinking. That technology reduced the amount of things people could do without thinking. He doesn't say that. The closest he comes to saying that is: God Emperor p263 posted:The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines," Leto said. "Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed. It was both according to Leto II. That's not to say that the "machine-attitude" isn't a problem that Leto II is concerned with. He says: God Emperor p177 posted:I point out to you, Marcus Claire Luyseyal, a lesson from past over-machined societies which you appear not to have learned. The devices themselves condition the users to employ each other the way they employ machines and God Emperor p346 posted:There's a lesson in that, too. What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking-there's the real danger. Look at how long you walked across this desert without thinking about your face mask. So yeah, a problem is that machines lead people to act without thinking and exploit one another mechanically. But another problem is literal hunter killer robots, and that's not just an invention of Brian and KJA. Here's Leto II talking about the Ixians thinking about that very thing: God Emperor p235 posted:The lxians contemplated making a weapon-a type of hunter-seeker, self-propelled death with a machine mind. It was to be designed as a self improving thing which would seek out life and reduce that life to its inorganic matter." The point here is that such machines could be invented and they would pose an existential threat to all life in the universe. Here's Siona's vision of those robots wiping out humanity: God Emperor p348 posted:Siona's eyes remained opened, but they no longer saw this place. She jerked abruptly and began to tremble like a small creature dying. He knew this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their burrows aware only that they could not escape... while all the time the mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer...louder...louder! This is her first experience of prescience, triggered when she drinks spice-laden water from Leto II's weird flaps. She sees why she needs to survive her trial in the desert. She's the end of the Golden Path and humanity needs her gene to avoid such a fate. And here's her briefly talking to Leto II about it afterwards: God Emperor p349 posted:He remained silent, forcing her to answer the question for herself. She had to be made to recognize that his primary consciousness worked in a Fremen way and that, like the terrible machines of that apocalyptic vision, the predator could follow any creature who left tracks. The point here is that such machines would be relentless hunters from which humanity could not hide, unless the Golden Path is successful--Siona needs to survive and pass on her unique gene that will prevent humans from being tracked by prescience. Note that all the Ixian inventions that are popping up in this novel--machines that can record thoughts, machines that can replace Guild Navigators--are steps towards machine prescience, and we've already noted that the Ixians have considered inventing hunter killer bots. We should also note that the remote controlled seeker-killer from Dune shows that advanced murder machines already exist; they just aren't intelligent advanced murder machines. But it's cool because the Golden Path does work, which is why at the end of the novel, Leto II tells Siona: God Emperor p420 posted:Do not fear the lxians," he said, and he heard his own voice as a fading whisper. "They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there. Arafel (the apocalypse) isn't going to happen because Siona's gene ensures that humanity can never be completely hunted down and wiped out. Again, the issue with Brian and KJA's books isn't that they add robots to a story that never had robots. The problem is they make take a story about the dangers and failures of heroes and messiahs that has robots involved in its distant past and its possible future and turn it into a space opera about fighting those robots.
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Nov 6, 2021 18:01
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The failson books also have robots punting babies off balconies as if they're footballs. I would argue, as others have, that the real issue with the failson books is that they have none of the subtlety and creativity of the originals and and years of research that Frank Herbert put into it - they're the worst kind of fanfiction where someone unfamiliar with the subject takes things that people might recognize and try and cram as much into it, while doing their own worldbuilding to create more fanfiction in order to make more money. EDIT: Not that there's anything wrong with making money off art, mind you. But they could at least have had the intellectual honesty of doing it with their own creation. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 6, 2021 |
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Nov 6, 2021 18:29
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Ya, if you read them as Decepticon novels that someone accidentally put a Dune dust jacket on, they’re a lot easier to get through.
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Nov 6, 2021 18:36
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MrYenko posted:Decepticon novels This would make for a sick album title
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Nov 6, 2021 19:20
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thotsky posted:I figured all the super-power factions used various spice-derived products for their powers, but yeah, wiki says I remember incorrectly. Someday they will discover the missing third drug that only makes you a little smarter and makes your nose turn green
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Nov 6, 2021 19:30
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Pedro De Heredia posted:On the other hand, the Dune Encyclopedia, which Herbert approved of, said that the Butlerian Jihad began because a hospital director who was also a computer was aborting babies unjustifiably / doing eugenics. The guy who wrote the Encyclopedia said he and Herbert were in the early stages of expanding that story into an actual prequel. So even Herbert Sr. was not opposed to seeing it as something more than a philosophical argument about human potential. That is the perfect example of "machine thinking" which allows things to be done without thinking about them.
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Nov 6, 2021 20:21
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Also wrt electronic controls given that were already ignoring things like "stillsuits are thermodynamically impossible" and "eugenics isn't real" I'm willing to believe the spaceships are entirely analog even if it's ridiculous
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Nov 7, 2021 00:07
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Since I first watched DUNC I’ve rewatched the Lynch version (theatrical), the extended version of the Sci-Fi miniseries, and DUNC again. I have read the book but it’s been a decade or two since the last time. The theatrical Dune (1984) is indeed a mess. Having seen the fan cut, I feel a bit more forgiving knowing that they filmed a bunch of stuff that was just hacked out. Jamis’ wife & children are in the throne room at the end even though Jamis isn’t in the movie, nor are crysknives even mentioned! Everett McGill, I love you, but you are truly a godawful Stilgar. The production design is striking at times; by far the most memorable of the three when it works and the budget hadn’t run out. The sand worms are the best out of the three. This is by far the weakest of the three but that doesn’t necessarily make it less interesting. I like stuff like Alien 3 in large part because of the behind-the-scenes story, so I can’t hate this movie. This was the first time I’ve seen the miniseries since it aired. Obviously the effects are, uh, limited but I expected it. I actually appreciate that they lean into things like really obvious backdrops instead of being ashamed of it. As a straight adaption of the book this is easily the best - the other ones drop so much stuff that this one has time to explore. I like that they added some stuff for Irulan to do. The hats are great (straight out of Moebius) and I liked the Guild reps being total weirdos. I remember when I first watched it I thought it was cool that everyone had weird accents (of course people would, coming from different planets) but it’s pretty apparent it’s just from hiring a bunch of Czech actors and probably not intentional. I’m probably least likely to rewatch this one. I liked DUNC more the second time, maybe because I knew what to expect (or rather, what not to expect), but I don’t love it. I still think this is a movie that will live and die based on Part 2. An important part of Dune to me is the complexity of the setting & characters which was largely missing from Part 1. If they don’t add some of that back in Part 2 I’ll be disappointed - it might even be a good two-part movie, but it won’t be Dune.
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Nov 7, 2021 00:45
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWe9f-dwcbI Dune is the perfect representation of patriarchy take
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Nov 7, 2021 01:43
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david_a posted:Since I first watched DUNC I’ve rewatched the Lynch version (theatrical), the extended version of the Sci-Fi miniseries, and DUNC again. I have read the book but it’s been a decade or two since the last time. I feel like Dune '21 cribs a lot from Dune '84, in a "let's try to pay homage, modernize, and better realize some of the most striking imagery from the original" way. The Harkonnen invasion sequence felt very similar to me. The casting is in general far better in '21, it isn't just a call sheet of white European actors filling out all the supporting roles. I think most importantly, we've just got to the point in Dune '21 where the '84 version began being cut down into senselessness, and that's indeed where the meat and potatoes of the new material will be. I am working my way through the novel for the first time and both movies have generally toned down how petulant Paul is early on. I'm not nearly finished, but the book takes a deeply cynical view of messianic religion so far.
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Nov 7, 2021 05:54
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21 Dune Harkonnen hazmat suites that look like 84 Dune Sardaukar
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Nov 7, 2021 06:03
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The worst thing I can say about DUNC is also the best thing I can say about the miniseries: Villeneuve’s work feels like a AAA, high-budget version of the 2000 miniseries; replete with huge special effects, big name actors, and a score to match the scale.
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Nov 7, 2021 06:35
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david_a posted:Since I first watched DUNC I’ve rewatched the Lynch version (theatrical), the extended version of the Sci-Fi miniseries, and DUNC again. I have read the book but it’s been a decade or two since the last time. Hard agree on needing part 2 to really judge this one. There's just too much up in the air right now, and how it all lands determines what kind of story this is. It does get me interested enough in the other Dune media to go back to them though. Been forever since I've seen the 84 version or read the book, and I'm willing to bet I could take in way more than I could when I first read them. Also agree on Alien3, that is one of those "beautiful mess" films that has so much going wrong both behind and in front of the camera that it's just engrossing to study. I actually kind of feel the same way about Alien3 that I feel abound Dune 2021. I can feel the miserableness and dread dripping off the screen, but I can't really connect with any of the characters (except the main protag). I'm glad Fincher got more freedom in future projects.
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Nov 7, 2021 06:43
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Just watched it. Liked it aesthetically for the most part, but that's what Villeneuve does best. Was mostly bored by the rest. Timothee Chalamat is incredibly wooden, unless that was his entire direction. Glad it seemed to mostly resonate in the wider world, even if I don't like Dune itself. I know Dune from pop-cultural osmosis mostly, what it inspired and working backwards. The story of of it was something I never liked. Time travel and prescience are my two least favorite tropes in fiction, and of course the whole franchise relies on the latter. Ignoring all that, hope they keep pumping out films till God-Emperor. Lemme see that big wormy boy.
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Nov 7, 2021 06:49
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Regarding mentats and AI, you do have to remember that Dune was published in 1965. Integrated circuits were only 7 years old. Sputnik had launched 8 years before. Heck, there were only about 20,000 computers worldwide in ‘65. Herbert’s understanding of computing power was very drastically different than our own. He definitely saw some of the potential detriments of reliance on computers, but after reading one of the interviews linked earlier, I’d say he more definitely understood how computers would be used to take advantage of and control other people. But who in 1965 would have predicted social media and timeline algorithm manipulation? I also think that, to at least some extent, the Butlerian Jihad was about creating an analog universe because Herbert was simply more comfortable writing about that, instead of trying to predict a future of computing.
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Nov 7, 2021 07:23
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gohmak posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWe9f-dwcbI I think calling the societies in Dune patriarchal is going both too far and not far enough. I'm trying to remember if there are ANY women in the movie who are not either Fremen or Bene Gesserit, and I'm coming up blank. I guess you can count Dr Kynes as a kind-of maybe not-fremen, but that rings false given how she acts later in the movie. Also I suppose for non-speaking roles you have all the women trying out for the servant position that Mapes got, but there's no telling whether any of them are fremen or not, they never even show their eyes. So, the Imperial Houses are not just male-run or male-dominated they are just straight up entirely male. And, the women in power are all members of the same secretive sect, whose only unique grip on power seems to be that they can A) control the houses access to hetero sex, and thus heirs, and B) the voice. This is like, patriarchy to the 10th power. But also, unlike the real world, The Voice is an actual thing and the BG can apparently control their bodies enough to give themselves total reproductive control AND they also know space kung-fu that is either a match for or better than anything the men know. The big hoopla around Paul seems to be that he is going to be able to "bridge the gap" and gain access to feminine powers (as this universe conceives them), and that will apparently make him the most powerful being in the universe. Sooooo, IS this a patriarchy? It's an interesting setup, and I think calling it patriarchy-in-space is a bit reductive. (I left out the fremen and basically all the underclass because we just don't really get enough info to say how their lives break down)
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Nov 7, 2021 07:43
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Patriarchy? In my feudal aristocracy?
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Nov 7, 2021 07:47
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ahem, that's neo-feudal space-spiceocracy tyvm
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Nov 7, 2021 07:58
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Ej posted:I think calling the societies in Dune patriarchal is going both too far and not far enough. I'm trying to remember if there are ANY women in the movie who are not either Fremen or Bene Gesserit, and I'm coming up blank. I guess you can count Dr Kynes as a kind-of maybe not-fremen, but that rings false given how she acts later in the movie. Also I suppose for non-speaking roles you have all the women trying out for the servant position that Mapes got, but there's no telling whether any of them are fremen or not, they never even show their eyes. Theres some women walking with Lady Jessica holding her dress when they walk off the ship after landing on Arrakis. Also her guard is a woman in the servant scene. Theres a few woman soldiers fighting on the stairs when they get surrounded during the invasion too.
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Nov 7, 2021 08:24
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banned from Starbucks posted:Theres some women walking with Lady Jessica holding her dress when they walk off the ship after landing on Arrakis. Also her guard is a woman in the servant scene. Theres a few woman soldiers fighting on the stairs when they get surrounded during the invasion too. Ahh, thanks, missed those. It seems like the general underclass and fremen might have a more egalitarian split, at least in terms of servants and fighters.
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Nov 7, 2021 08:37
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Also theres some harkonnen women just kinda standing around in a few of the Baron scenes.
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Nov 7, 2021 08:50
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How much of the first book does DUNC cover?
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Nov 7, 2021 09:47
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neurotech posted:How much of the first book does DUNC cover? 2/3-ish. Obviously being a film adaptation, there's a bunch of stuff not included or compressed or combined into other stuff. Overall though I appreciated the film for what it was and enjoyed it a lot.
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Nov 7, 2021 09:52
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Proteus Jones posted:2/3-ish. Gotcha. I've been considering reading Dune for a while, and after seeing the movie I feel like there was a lot of stuff portrayed that I wanted to know more about. Do you get more exposition in the book?
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Nov 7, 2021 11:12
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neurotech posted:Gotcha. I've been considering reading Dune for a while, and after seeing the movie I feel like there was a lot of stuff portrayed that I wanted to know more about. Do you get more exposition in the book? Oh boy, do you... Yeah, you do. Don't really see why you spoilered that tbh
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Nov 7, 2021 11:17
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Failed Imagineer posted:Oh boy, do you... Is that a good oh boy or bad oh boy? I wasn’t sure on whether I should spoiler that - went with precaution.
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Nov 7, 2021 12:08
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neurotech posted:Is that a good oh boy or bad oh boy? It's less so exposition, more that the first book at least is very interior, it's a lot of people thinking very hard about each other in palaces, and then later on people thinking very hard about each other in caves and tripping out. It's really cool in a way which is not filmable, but luckily there's also a lot of cool poo poo which is adaptable to film
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Nov 7, 2021 12:23
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gohmak posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWe9f-dwcbI
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Nov 7, 2021 13:43
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I feel like Dune '21 cribs a lot from Dune '84, in a "let's try to pay homage, modernize, and better realize some of the most striking imagery from the original" way. There’s a scene after the ecology station fight when they finally get their stillsuits on, and they start moving through the desert. Paul has a vision of Chani showing him the desert mouse, and Jamis tells Paul that he’ll show Paul the ways of the desert. It’s a bit of a montage. Immediately after Jamis says “Come with me,” there’s a camera pan as they walk down a rock face to show the desert ahead of them. The score has been very light and dreamlike through this section, and as the camera reveals the deep desert, it moves into a full bar of the Dune ‘84 main theme, complete with the guitar sizzle. It teases you again with another motif of the main theme but drifts back off into the dream music, though still with some echos of that melody. And it loving rules. Failed Imagineer posted:It's really cool in a way which is not filmable… Didn’t stop Dune ‘84 from trying. 
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Nov 7, 2021 14:04
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:The worst thing I can say about DUNC is also the best thing I can say about the miniseries: I think they’re the least like each other. In the miniseries I liked seeing things like the formal dinner before the attack, the greenhouse in the palace, the mystery of who Liet is, Feyd’s gladiatorial training, etc. DUNC is a very “opinionated” streamlining of the story that barely covers some of the more fundamental parts of the setting. Regarding Liet, don’t they actually introduce her as Liet Kynes in this one? I feel like the 84 version also did that. It wasn’t until the miniseries that I remembered it wasn’t revealed until later in the book that Liet was Kynes. I also wonder if this version will keep Chani being the offspring of Liet. I don’t remember the 84 version bothering with it.
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Nov 7, 2021 14:06
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Kurzon posted:I was told that Frank Herbert was a feminist.
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Nov 7, 2021 15:28
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I just noticed the Atreides space battleships get their flat top shape from modern aircraft carriers.
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Nov 7, 2021 16:06
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Here's a question: If the guild controls space travel, does FTL communication exist? This would be a good reason reverend mother finally asks Jessica why she had a boy, fifteen years after the fact. Or are they just delivering mail scrolls ship to ship?
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Nov 7, 2021 16:52
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PeterWeller posted:He remained silent, forcing her to answer the question for herself. She had to be made to recognize that his primary consciousness worked in a Fremen way and that, like the terrible machines of that apocalyptic vision, the predator could follow any creature who left tracks. I like how this parallels the walking without rhythm of the first book, to evade the sand worms.
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Nov 7, 2021 17:35
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david_a posted:I think they’re the least like each other. In the miniseries I liked seeing things like the formal dinner before the attack, the greenhouse in the palace, the mystery of who Liet is, Feyd’s gladiatorial training, etc. DUNC is a very “opinionated” streamlining of the story that barely covers some of the more fundamental parts of the setting. In the miniseries there's also a short train ride through the city, and the water seller outside the palace. Allows us to see that oh people who aren't fremen actually do live in this city and their life goes on. Little touches like that help flesh out the world and provide a richness to the movie. I really liked the way they adapted the dinner party and really painted a picture of how things work here and all the moving parts. In Dunc they're like "here's the city" (bird's eye of a block of buildings). And since we only meet fremen, and evebody Paul asks "are you fremen" is (except for maybe tree waterer guy? Can't remember), so it's like why even ask that question? It's apparently all who lives on this planet. stratdax fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Nov 7, 2021 |
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Nov 7, 2021 17:39
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Ej posted:Ahh, thanks, missed those. It seems like the general underclass and fremen might have a more egalitarian split, at least in terms of servants and fighters. Y'all also forgot the Emperor's herald!
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Nov 7, 2021 17:46
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Y'all also forgot the Emperor's herald! That's a guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Clementine
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Nov 7, 2021 18:29
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GORDON posted:Here's a question: There's never any indication that FTL comms are as big of a deal as FTL travel, it seems like 'news gets around' in the duniverse, there's no indication that the guild controls or monitors communications the way they do travel.
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Nov 7, 2021 18:49
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