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Vincent posted:Movie stuff: I got the impression that they made Gurney more of a poet than a bard/singer. When they arrive in Dune, he's reading a little book and then recites a stanza, instead of singing. The same on the tactical meeting attended by Paul after the hunter-seeker. That’s the Orange Catholic Bible mentioned extensively in the novel, he quotes from it regularly.
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Nov 9, 2021 16:25
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Other way around: Yeah, I got that confused. quote:One of the other books, I don't remember which, also hints that the Fremen achieve a limited form of prescience during spice orgies. I think it's in Dune itself. quote:It's pretty clear that the Bene Gesserit was breeding the Kwizats Hadarach because of the unique ability of that person to see all of the futures, since one of the things they wanted was to avoid the stagnation of humanity - Leto II as GEoD hints at this when talking about why he took the breeding program from them. My understanding is that the KH is supposed to combine the ability to access ancestral memories with prescience. Basically, the KH will have the ability to see all possible futures and the wisdom to understand what he is seeing. Or from a  perspective, the KH will combine the feminine power of the BG with the masculine power of the Guild.quote:Siona was the product of a breeding program to produce non-prescient people who were still invisible from prescence. Yeah, and anyone will experience some limited prescience when dosed with enough spice. That goes back to the Fremen getting visions during the spice orgies. quote:Well, Paul himself wasn't a full Kwizats Hadarach either - he was born a generation too early. He was trained as a mentat because Leto thought it would be a pretty neat idea to have a mentat Duke, which might have helped him achieve some of the abilities of the full Kwizats Hadarach. I don't think we should parse full and partial Kwizats Haderachs. There are multiple people with potential to be the KH. Paul says he is, and I don't see any reason to doubt him. Halloween Jack posted:I don't think that the Kwisatz Haderach works that way. There have been other "candidates" for the Kwisatz Haderach, including Count Fenring. Certain genetic traits are a prerequisite, but it's a precise combination of nature and nurture, and it doesn't require this one extremely specific genome. Yeah, and it seems that the main reason why Fenring isn't the KH is because he's a "genetic eunuch", which I take to mean he can't breed future KHs. The BG aren'tplanning to stop their breeding program when they produce a KH. bawfuls posted:This is a weird complaint when the book specifically says no one outside the guild has ever seen a Navigator and isn’t allowed to. Also, no navigator appears in Dune. We first see one (the only one we see in Frank's books) in Messiah when Edric appears among the conspirators, and the only reason why the other conspirators get to see him is that they need to be in his presence to shield themselves and the conspiracy from Paul's prescience. I think Villeneuve made the right move with holding off on showing them.
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Nov 9, 2021 16:35
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There are two navigators hanging out wearing colored contacts when Paul first confronts the Emperor in the first book.
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Nov 9, 2021 16:56
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Simulating friendship by watching Dune reaction videos on yt. Its pretty neat to see a non preexisting movie IP resonating so well among people.
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Nov 9, 2021 17:10
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Tankbuster posted:Simulating friendship by watching Dune reaction videos on yt. Its pretty neat to see a non preexisting movie IP resonating so well among people. I wanna see a video posted in 2019 where a YouTuber with the eyes of Ibad reacts to Dune pt.2 (2023)
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Nov 9, 2021 17:15
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Jokes aside people seem to respond well to the earnestness of dune in a way that watching 3 million marvel quipmachines can't really match.
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Nov 9, 2021 17:26
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Torquemada posted:That’s the Orange Catholic Bible mentioned extensively in the novel, he quotes from it regularly. I thought it was the OCB at first too, but I forgot if the book mentioned Gurney reading it. It's been a minute since I read Dune and Messiah.
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Nov 9, 2021 17:27
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Isn't the Kwizats Haderachs just the guy that can have all the male and female memories? Wasn't that the actual point of the thousands of years of breeding and all the other powers are fake/incidental? Like the mothers could see genetic history all back through all their female ancestors but having male memories was too spooky, so they need to make a special male vessel that that could handle all the male memories without going crazy AND get the female memories, then they would have twice as much memories and presumably be the smartest.
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Nov 9, 2021 17:29
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Failed Imagineer posted:Interesting, do they even interact in the movie? There was that joke about him not smiling but it seems like the only time he actually really smiles in the movie is when Duncan is in the scene. And when Duncan lands he rushes with Paul to hug him.
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Nov 9, 2021 17:29
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RIP Dean Stockwell, today it truly does suk to be yueh
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Nov 9, 2021 17:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Isn't the Kwizats Haderachs just the guy that can have all the male and female memories? Wasn't that the actual point of the thousands of years of breeding and all the other powers are fake/incidental? Also in God Emperor I think I recall Leto starting to comment on the fundamental sexual forces of the universe or whatever, and then he throws in a kind of hilarious "by the way I dunno if any of this is even really accurate, just doin my best here." Maybe I was reading into it too much and I'd love to find the quote I'm thinking of, but I definitely got the impression Frank was walking back any implication that he was talking about literal differences between men and women.
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Nov 9, 2021 17:49
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Edit: Nevermind
Cheesus fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 18:13
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I kind of took that the couple dudes we see in the fully enclosed white and gold suits during the Herald of the Change scene might’ve been early stage navigators acting as guild reps to the imperial court, senior enough to be rocking 24/7 spice gas suits but not having gone full fish-fetus mode yet.
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Nov 9, 2021 18:16
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Neo Rasa posted:Duncan is basically the younger new model of Gurney. They're both the Duke's most badass fighters (though IIRC in the book it's said Gurney cam still defeat Duncan consitently when they train?) and greatest haters of Harkonnens. Gurney is the memelord of the house, throwing out quotes from plays and books in just about every sentence. Duncan does not meme. So he probably thinks Gurney is a bit lame.
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Nov 9, 2021 18:37
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Martman posted:The Dune wiki makes explicit reference to the differences in genetic memory being strictly tied to the X and Y chromosomes, but I wonder if that was something... "clarified" by Brian. As I recall when Frank starts going off about the "male" and "female" aspects of the universe it sounds much more vague, yin yangish even. I feel like conceptually the idea is Reverend Mothers would have the genetic memory of all the reverend mothers before them, but if you were real cool and good at being a Bene Gesserit that would extend to all your female ancestors all the way back in history. I think the idea is big chosen one specially bred guy would have infinite access to all genetic memory of all types. Limiters off. But like, writing wise it kinda sucked because a bunch of people already had 50% of everyone covered. So the additional "everybody" just ended up being "well, men I guess"
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Nov 9, 2021 18:42
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Baron von Eevl posted:There are two navigators hanging out wearing colored contacts when Paul first confronts the Emperor in the first book. That's right. Those dudes are Navigators. I thought they were just "Guildsmen" or "Guild Agents", but Paul does ask if they are Navigators and they confirm it. Still, I think my point stands with some clarification--you don't see one of the highly mutated fishman Navigators until Edric shows up in Messiah. Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I kind of took that the couple dudes we see in the fully enclosed white and gold suits during the Herald of the Change scene might’ve been early stage navigators acting as guild reps to the imperial court, senior enough to be rocking 24/7 spice gas suits but not having gone full fish-fetus mode yet. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're Guild reps or early stage Navigators. The helmets look like they're full of a spice cloud and people have mentioned that you can catch a glimpse of their blue eyes through it in a shot. Also, when the imperial herald is listing the witnesses, the camera work seems to indicate that they're the Guild reps. PeterWeller fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 18:59
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, and it seems that the main reason why Fenring isn't the KH is because he's a "genetic eunuch", which I take to mean he can't breed future KHs. The BG aren'tplanning to stop their breeding program when they produce a KH. I've wondered if Feyd-Rautha was himself a KH candidate. I don't think so, because a) the prescience seems to come specifically from the Atreides line, and b) being raised by the Harkonnens evidently left him with a short attention span and not much intellectual curiosity.
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Nov 9, 2021 19:02
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Halloween Jack posted:Not only that, but the knowledge that he was infertile lead to him being raised differently, and knowing this about himself influenced him as well. He grew up to be a Talleyrand rather than a Napoleon. I don't think Feyd is a KH candidate. I wonder how much he even fits into the breeding program since the Reverend Mother seems more concerned about the political ramifications of not having an Atreides daughter for him to marry. Now they can't "heal the breach" between the houses. So maybe their plan for him and the Atreides daughter they wanted was just to end the conflict between Atreides and Harkonnen and preserve both bloodlines.
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Nov 9, 2021 19:13
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I feel like conceptually the idea is Reverend Mothers would have the genetic memory of all the reverend mothers before them, but if you were real cool and good at being a Bene Gesserit that would extend to all your female ancestors all the way back in history. Way less than 50%, because its a singular line. You remember your mother and your grandmother and your great-grandmother. Exactly one person per generation, no matter how far back you go. But if you can follow the male and female lines you remember both your parents. And 4 grandparents. And 8 great-grandparents. It diverges through time, and fast. Go back a few dozen generations and you remember millions upon millions of people.
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Nov 9, 2021 19:27
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Been forever since I’ve read the books; what exactly did the BG want with a KH? Overtly rule the universe? Improve humanity? I get that they wanted to carefully “train” their preferred candidate from birth to make them more controllable, but how did they realistically expect to control a being like that? If the KH can see the past and the future, it would be pretty obvious to them that they were being used.
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Nov 9, 2021 19:40
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david_a posted:Been forever since I’ve read the books; what exactly did the BG want with a KH? Overtly rule the universe? Improve humanity? IIRC the KH is meant to save humanity from exctinction in the very distant future so he needs prescience in order to guide humanity towards that goal.
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Nov 9, 2021 19:46
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PeterWeller posted:That's right. Those dudes are Navigators. I thought they were just "Guildsmen" or "Guild Agents", but Paul does ask if they are Navigators and they confirm it. Still, I think my point stands with some clarification--you don't see one of the highly mutated fishman Navigators until Edric shows up in Messiah. Yeah but I think that was more a case of Herbert changing his mind about Navigators to make them weirder (they're kinda fish like I guess) and then Lynch went whole hog on the idea and they're these gargantuan vaginaface dudes the size of an airplane. PeterWeller posted:I don't think Feyd is a KH candidate. I wonder how much he even fits into the breeding program since the Reverend Mother seems more concerned about the political ramifications of not having an Atreides daughter for him to marry. Now they can't "heal the breach" between the houses. So maybe their plan for him and the Atreides daughter they wanted was just to end the conflict between Atreides and Harkonnen and preserve both bloodlines. The impression I had was they were hoping Feyd's offspring with *Paulette* would have been a potential KH.
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Nov 9, 2021 19:59
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Don't give the fanfic people any ideas.david_a posted:Been forever since I’ve read the books; what exactly did the BG want with a KH? Overtly rule the universe? Improve humanity?
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Nov 9, 2021 20:01
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Baron von Eevl posted:Yeah but I think that was more a case of Herbert changing his mind about Navigators to make them weirder (they're kinda fish like I guess) and then Lynch went whole hog on the idea and they're these gargantuan vaginaface dudes the size of an airplane. Is Feyd the Baron's nephew by blood? Because since the Baron is Jessica's father, that would start to look like a Hapsburg bloodline
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Nov 9, 2021 20:06
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Chernabog posted:IIRC the KH is meant to save humanity from exctinction in the very distant future so he needs prescience in order to guide humanity towards that goal. So this right here is why I think the whole "watch out for charismatic leaders and false prophets" interpretation doesn't really work. Like "oh you got what you wished for... And billions have died!" but then it turns out that the universe really actually did need that to happen and everything Paul and Leto II did was necessary and they saved humanity. It has its cake and eats it too. Like Jessica and Paul use the planted prophecy to their advantage and insert themselves with the fremen and survive... But then they live up to everything the prophecy said and foretold anyway? I mean if Herbert wanted to twist the trope Jessica and Paul could have just caught a spaceship offworld after Paul becomes emperor and told the fremen "so long losers, nothing changes, it was a lie and you all bought it!". stratdax fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 20:10
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stratdax posted:Is Feyd the Baron's nephew by blood? Because since the Baron is Jessica's father, that would start to look like a Hapsburg bloodline I believe so and I think that’s semi-explicitly an instance where you’re supposed to assume the Bene Gesserit just take care of that with the implication of unspecified gene-magic.
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Nov 9, 2021 20:10
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You know how Netflix chooses the promo image for a movie based on what it thinks interests you? Well I just added a bunch of old slashers to my watchlist and now my image for the Lynch movie is a picture of Shadout Mapes brandishing the crysknife
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Nov 9, 2021 20:23
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stratdax posted:Is Feyd the Baron's nephew by blood? Because since the Baron is Jessica's father, that would start to look like a Hapsburg bloodline Yeah, I think the implication there is that if you look at breeding for a trait as if humans were dogs or something, what you end up with is a lot of inbreeding to really nail down the traits that make you good at taking space drugs and seeing the future. You'd probably actually get something more like the navigators due to all the weird recessive traits also coming out and whatever else.
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Nov 9, 2021 20:25
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What do you think would have happened if paul hadn't stepped forward to be Jessica's "champion" when Jamis did the challenge? Would Stilgar have had to fight him or something?
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Nov 9, 2021 21:00
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stratdax posted:Is Feyd the Baron's nephew by blood? Because since the Baron is Jessica's father, that would start to look like a Hapsburg bloodline Sort of, Feyd and Rabban are the sons of Vlad's half-brother (they share a father but have different mothers). I also got the impression that Feyd and Rabban were half rather than full brothers (again, same father, different mothers), but it looks like official sources have them as being full brothers.
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Nov 9, 2021 21:01
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Dean Stockwell has died.  "Remember the tooth!"
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Nov 9, 2021 21:31
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stratdax posted:So this right here is why I think the whole "watch out for charismatic leaders and false prophets" interpretation doesn't really work. Like "oh you got what you wished for... And billions have died!" but then it turns out that the universe really actually did need that to happen and everything Paul and Leto II did was necessary and they saved humanity. It has its cake and eats it too. I think the point of that interpretation is that even a leader who is "good" and trying to do his best will end up with blood in his hands. Or that you can't achieve your goals as a leader without causing pain. It's been a while since I read the books so my memory is fuzzy, but wasn't Paul's entire conflict in the second or third book that he doesn't want to accept the terrible purpose? And then Leto II has to take it over later.
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Nov 9, 2021 21:34
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Alchenar posted:The point of the Navigators is that folding space is inherently uncertain and no amount of being good at maths will let you pick the right calculation - unless you cheat by peeking forwards in time to see which calculation was the right one. Did the robots also see the future
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Nov 9, 2021 21:34
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stratdax posted:So this right here is why I think the whole "watch out for charismatic leaders and false prophets" interpretation doesn't really work. Like "oh you got what you wished for... And billions have died!" but then it turns out that the universe really actually did need that to happen and everything Paul and Leto II did was necessary and they saved humanity. It has its cake and eats it too. I think the charismatic leaders metaphor is pertinent largely to Paul's story and becomes less relevant when Leto II is in charge, Leto II was never a charismatic leader, nobody celebrated him as a messiah before he rose to power. not to mention that Leto II saving humanity was only neccesary in the first place in order because the BG were meddling with human genetics trying to breed omniscient dictators, what Leto did is neccesary only in the context of being such as Leto existing in the first place
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Nov 9, 2021 21:41
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stratdax posted:So this right here is why I think the whole "watch out for charismatic leaders and false prophets" interpretation doesn't really work. Like "oh you got what you wished for... And billions have died!" but then it turns out that the universe really actually did need that to happen and everything Paul and Leto II did was necessary and they saved humanity. It has its cake and eats it too. emanresu tnuocca posted:I think the charismatic leaders metaphor is pertinent largely to Paul's story and becomes less relevant when Leto II is in charge, Leto II was never a charismatic leader, nobody celebrated him as a messiah before he rose to power. Yeah, he's openly a historical villain, on purpose, because he has to be. According to himself, the worst tyrant in history. Leto II is not a reliable narrator. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 22:05
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Baron von Eevl posted:Yeah but I think that was more a case of Herbert changing his mind about Navigators to make them weirder (they're kinda fish like I guess) and then Lynch went whole hog on the idea and they're these gargantuan vaginaface dudes the size of an airplane. Yeah, that's a reasonable take. I'd note that Edric is described as a "humanoid fish" and a "fish in a strange sea", so Lynch got those parts from Frank, but him being giant and having a vagina for a mouth are likely Lynch's additions. quote:The impression I had was they were hoping Feyd's offspring with *Paulette* would have been a potential KH. I don't think it's wrong to get that impression. I've had it as well, but I've also questioned it because the Reverend Mother does seem more concerned with the political ramifications. stratdax posted:So this right here is why I think the whole "watch out for charismatic leaders and false prophets" interpretation doesn't really work. Like "oh you got what you wished for... And billions have died!" but then it turns out that the universe really actually did need that to happen and everything Paul and Leto II did was necessary and they saved humanity. It has its cake and eats it too. But note too that many Fremen begin to resent Paul precisely because he begins to fulfill the prophecy, turning Arrakis into a desert, and in turn, destroying the desert subsistence culture of the Fremen. There's a "be careful what you wish for" angle to the critique of charismatic leaders. And while the Golden Path may secure humanity's future, it also leads to three millennia of misery. emanresu tnuocca posted:not to mention that Leto II saving humanity was only neccesary in the first place in order because the BG were meddling with human genetics trying to breed omniscient dictators, what Leto did is neccesary only in the context of being such as Leto existing in the first place I don't think that's correct. As I've harped on at length, Siona sees the existential threat that the Golden Path will prevent in her vision, and it's not other humans.
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Nov 9, 2021 22:24
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think the charismatic leaders metaphor is pertinent largely to Paul's story and becomes less relevant when Leto II is in charge, Leto II was never a charismatic leader, nobody celebrated him as a messiah before he rose to power. Sort of. He really was necessary to prevent the Arafel- ie, out of control autonomous, self replicating weapons with prescient vision (he probably had Fred Saberhagan's Berserkers in mind rather than our very abstracted grey goo version, although the name Arafel, which means "dust storm (from a specific type and direction of wind) of God's judgement" kind of suggests nanotech as well). In Saberhagan's books, humans defeat the Berserkers through unpredictability. So you might well read them as sequels to Dune. e: have some Berserker art: 
Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Nov 9, 2021 |
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Nov 9, 2021 22:42
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Isn't the Kwizats Haderachs just the guy that can have all the male and female memories? Wasn't that the actual point of the thousands of years of breeding and all the other powers are fake/incidental? Thousands of eyars of breeding to create a Non-Binary Bene Gesserit.
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Nov 10, 2021 02:54
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MonsieurChoc posted:Thousands of eyars of breeding to create a Non-Binary Bene Gesserit. "For they IS the Kwizatz Haderach!"
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Nov 10, 2021 04:07
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The Enby Fembadasserach
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