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Arglebargle III posted:Lynch's Dune has been recut so many times it's hard to know who the author even is. 
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Nov 15, 2021 00:05
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Both Dune movies (2021 and 1984) choose basically the same scenes and plot structure up to Paul leaving with the Fremen. Certain characters emphasized more in each version and worlds are drawn very differently, but the basic plot elements are the same. I think the first hour of Lynch Dune is a fun watch with plenty of Lynch elements. Its so full of great images and some fantastic wurms. But yeah the Fremen in his version are disappointing and it loses a lot after meeting them. You still get some solid dreams though. And the final confrontation with the Emperor and Sting is fun. The recent Arrow set for Lynch Dune is great, but I wish it could have included some of these other cuts of the film also.
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Nov 15, 2021 01:28
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Torquemada posted:The book starts out pretty good, but after my second read through noticed a massive drop in quality in the writing after Paul drinks the water of life. The entire ending is hurried, overstated and clumsy, even barely comprehensible in places. I might be wrong....but wasn't Dune Messiah originally going to be part of Dune (the first book).....but for whatever reason.....it ended up being released afterwards?
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Nov 15, 2021 01:31
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I think Lynch’s Dune sucks but it sucks for what I can only see as editing reasons. Every scene having voice over and explaining every bit is not something Lynch would really do. Also the entire last act is cut down and literally voice overed years worth of story to just get too it. It’s a film that’s destroyed in the editing. Everything else I don’t know. I like the visuals and weirdness.
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Nov 15, 2021 01:47
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david_a posted:That’s the TV cut. It's very similar to the TV cut in scope but was a newly assembled cut made for the 2005 DVD release (and later official releases) and is different enough from the Sci-Fi channel's TV cut to be notable.
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Nov 15, 2021 01:48
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CelticPredator posted:I think Lynch’s Dune sucks but it sucks for what I can only see as editing reasons. Every scene having voice over and explaining every bit is not something Lynch would really do. Also the entire last act is cut down and literally voice overed years worth of story to just get too it. I know I bring it up a lot but you might appreciate this fan edit, I genuinely feel it's the best possible thing you could assemble with what footage they got and among its major changes is almost all of the internal voice overs being gone. Interestingly though it still feels completely rushed in the third act. Amusingly, one smart thing it did was have some of the "exposition voice over" be used as audio pads Paul is listening too briefly at the start of a scene or whatever - Something we'd also see in Villeneuve's Dune several years later  The video quality of this gets not great at some points but there's  of it all with an all uniform resolution.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faHQA_0d9Mo
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Nov 15, 2021 01:53
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Also, it's a bit revisionist of him to claim it had to be cut down by someone else - according to an interview in 1984, the first script was over 200 pages and would've resulted in a movie that was over four hours long - but even after they cut the script down to 135 pages (or 120, according to newer interviews; though these aren't sourced) through six revisions, which he had complete control over, the movie still ended up being longer than was contracted for; something that doesn't add up with the many script additions that're mentioned in the interview mentioned above. "Dune makes me sad because I didn't have final cut and it's not the movie I would have made if I had been able to get it." - Literally, David Lynch, in the video you quoted. I don't know what conspiracy you think you've uncovered but so far there's zero reason to not take the man's words at face value.
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Nov 15, 2021 01:54
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AnEdgelord posted:He already said the third movie would be the second book which is Dune Messiah Interesting. I thought that there were only going to be two movies.....and that the second one would cover Dune Messiah.....since the first movie covered about three quarters of the first book. Think Villeneuve did an excellent job of capturing the source material. Really pretty impressive considering the intricacies of the book. The one thing that I think they missed.....was the small part after Duncan and Liets find Paul and Jessica in the desert. Duncan offers Paul his shield and Paul tells him....."Your right arm is shield enough for me". I always thought that was a notable part from the book that gave an indication of how Paul would be as a leader....and how he would be able to earn the respect and devotion of people around him. So I was pretty surprised that it didn't end up in the film. Especially considering it happens basically right before Duncan sacrifices himself so that Paul and Jessica can escape.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:03
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RestingB1tchFace posted:Interesting. I thought that there were only going to be two movies.....and that the second one would cover Dune Messiah.....since the first movie covered about three quarters of the first book. It happens right before or after that part too when some random other Atreides guy helps them out briefly and Jessica thinks about how it's mindblowing that Paul and Leto are so absurdly charismatic and able to get people on their side so easily. I'm hoping that comes up more in the second movie as Paul takes over the Fremen.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:17
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Neo Rasa posted:It happens right before or after that part too when some random other Atreides guy helps them out briefly and Jessica thinks about how it's mindblowing that Paul and Leto are so absurdly charismatic and able to get people on their side so easily. I'm sure it will. Still doesn't make up for the fact that I think they missed an opportunity for a good scene there.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:23
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It’s not that there was a Lynch cut of the film and Universal butchered it- it’s that from the start he was pressured to make compromises and do things the studio wanted, and he never really had control, so it’s hard to say what a Lynch version would have been like. The script is a clue but we’ll never really know and he has no interest in revisiting what for him was a negative experience. The TV cut has extra stuff which is neat but it’s horribly assembled, it’s a real lesson in the power of editing. The theatrical cut has its awkward jumps but still has a better rhythm. I still love it, it’s a rare case of space opera as visual art and no other film in the genre has quite the same majesty. It’s a fractured glimpse into another world.
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Nov 15, 2021 02:35
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:When I heard that DENIS is wanting 3 films, I got really excited because I think a trilogy of films for the first book would be a vast improvement over a 2 part approach. Part 2 could really focus on the time spent in the sietch, and sort of slow the pace down from the breakneck speed of part 1. Jamis's funeral could bridge the gap between films really well, and make it seem an almost instant transition, which would work best IMO. I knew I recognized him. He's in Marcelo Garcia's X-Gaurd series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LJM1j-lKdA even does the narraration gohmak fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 04:09
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gohmak posted:I knew I recognized him. He's in Marcelo Garcia's X-Gaurd series. He has a significant supporting role in Nicholas Winding Refn's glacially slow and absurdly self indulgent Amazon show, Too Old to Die Young, but I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who watched that.
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Nov 15, 2021 05:37
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Cacator posted:He has a significant supporting role in Nicholas Winding Refn's glacially slow and absurdly self indulgent Amazon show, Too Old to Die Young, but I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who watched that. I’m pretty sure you meant those as negatives, but they’re all up my incredibly niche alley. And it’s got John Hawkes? And loving Hideo Kojima?!?!? Where has this show been all my life hottest of damns. I appreciate that Refn is profoundly not what most people want in a director, but I’m such a sucker for his brand of slow, atmospheric pacing punctuated by horrific, squirmy violence. How did this pass me by. gently caress yes. Thanks!
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Nov 15, 2021 08:55
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:"Dune makes me sad because I didn't have final cut and it's not the movie I would have made if I had been able to get it." Also the idea of a guy with (from a Hollywood perspective) two movies under his belt, one a weird art house piece and another a stately biopic, having final cut on a tent pole extravaganza (under loving Dino DeLaurentis, no less) like Dune is laughable. As William Goldman related, everyone liked to say they had final cut, but in that period of film history, maybe five directors on earth actually had it.
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Nov 15, 2021 09:55
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checkplease posted:So how would Jamis have become his mentor? It seemed like the two scenarios were always he killed Jamis or Jamis killed him there. Is the idea that he could have taken a path to avoid the duel but just didnt realize it yet? Or Paul just reaching out to all the possible futures for information? Paul was seeing possible futures, possible outcomes and I love that Villeneuve decided to include that element. A big part of Paul's story is him grappling with the branching path nature of prescience and his limited ability to change things.
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Nov 15, 2021 11:24
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RestingB1tchFace posted:I might be wrong....but wasn't Dune Messiah originally going to be part of Dune (the first book).....but for whatever reason.....it ended up being released afterwards?
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Nov 15, 2021 13:53
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Penitent posted:Paul was seeing possible futures, possible outcomes and I love that Villeneuve decided to include that element. A big part of Paul's story is him grappling with the branching path nature of prescience and his limited ability to change things. I loved that part of it too because it added more to Paul repeatedly trying not to kill him even after he knows it's to the death, he still has the mindset of "but we're supposed to end up being good friends of course we don't kill each other." Torquemada posted:Also the idea of a guy with (from a Hollywood perspective) two movies under his belt, one a weird art house piece and another a stately biopic, having final cut on a tent pole extravaganza (under loving Dino DeLaurentis, no less) like Dune is laughable. As William Goldman related, everyone liked to say they had final cut, but in that period of film history, maybe five directors on earth actually had it. I always took a director saying they had final cut or not to be shorthand for how interfered with the production was and not a literal, actual instance of the director being the final person that says if the movie ships or not.
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Nov 15, 2021 14:52
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Neo Rasa posted:
I'm sure there's tons of exaggeration and directors trying hard to "round up" to talk a big game, but that is literally exactly what final cut means. Like I guarantee lots of directors will lie about the process for a variety of reasons, but then they would be straight up lying. They either have final cut or they don't and there's not a lot of room for it to have a metaphorical meaning : it'd be like "metaphorically" having a parking pass or something.
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Nov 15, 2021 15:42
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Xiahou Dun posted:I’m pretty sure you meant those as negatives, but they’re all up my incredibly niche alley. And it’s got John Hawkes? And loving Hideo Kojima?!?!? Where has this show been all my life hottest of damns.
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Nov 15, 2021 16:08
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Xiahou Dun posted:I’m pretty sure you meant those as negatives, but they’re all up my incredibly niche alley. No, those were objective statements.
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Nov 15, 2021 16:11
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Babs was also in an episode of Black Mirror, but yeah I mostly recognized him from Too Old to Die Young and thought he was awesome in both that and Dune. He really has a huge impact as Jamis for such a small amount of screen time.
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Nov 15, 2021 16:28
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Halloween Jack posted:I would've enjoyed it more if the ending wasn't a setup for a Part II which is about as likely to be made as a remake of The Day the Clown Cried. But Part 2 is already greenlit and in pre-production? 
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Nov 15, 2021 17:32
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Martman posted:Babs was also in an episode of Black Mirror, but yeah I mostly recognized him from Too Old to Die Young and thought he was awesome in both that and Dune. He really has a huge impact as Jamis for such a small amount of screen time. Villeneuve absolutely milked the character for the better.
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Nov 15, 2021 17:50
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:The first trilogy of books in the Dune series were all supposed to be part of the same book, according to a rarely-published document called Dune Genesis by Frank Herbert, which I quoted earlier in the thread. I'm pretty sure this line: Dune Genesis posted:I conceived of a long novel, the whole trilogy as one book about the messianic convulsions that periodically overtake us. is referring to how Dune is divided into 3 "books" and not to a grand plan that included Messiah and Children. Note that at the end of the essay, he talks about how Messiah inverts the themes he is talking about and Children adds to them.
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Nov 15, 2021 18:34
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I'm not sure what children of dune does honestly. It's mostly just 600 pages
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Nov 15, 2021 18:39
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No Mods No Masters posted:I'm not sure what children of dune does honestly. It's mostly just 600 pages
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Nov 15, 2021 19:10
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Neo Rasa posted:I loved that part of it too because it added more to Paul repeatedly trying not to kill him even after he knows it's to the death, he still has the mindset of "but we're supposed to end up being good friends of course we don't kill each other."
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Nov 15, 2021 19:20
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I recently listened to an interview with Daniel Immerwahr on the American Prestige podcast. The episode in question is subscriber-only, but Immerwahr is a professor so there are other freely available talks and interviews he's done on the subject. I really recommend him for anyone who wants to understand the formative influences on Frank Herbert's writing and his very weird and idiosyncratic politics. He was one of the New Wave authors who had an upbringing that you'd expect to produce a left-wing hippie, but that frontier gently caress-the-government-that-makes-my-lifestyle-possible ideology turned him into a romantic reactionary.
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Nov 15, 2021 19:20
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:The first trilogy of books in the Dune series were all supposed to be part of the same book, according to a rarely-published document called Dune Genesis by Frank Herbert, which I quoted earlier in the thread. "I originally conceived of doing the trilogy as one really long book" is not the same thing as "the trilogy was only ever supposed to be one book"
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Nov 15, 2021 19:25
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:But Part 2 is already greenlit and in pre-production? They were referring to Winding-Refn's Too Old To Die Young
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Nov 15, 2021 19:55
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I watched the Lynch Dune last night... - everything is unbelievably junky looking, like a yard sale - the squarish shields on people made me laugh as they looked ridiculous - started to think it won't finish the book because it only had an hour left where Dune 2021 ended, but... it managed to finish it I guess. very rushed. - honestly was expecting something more incoherent. I never read the book, I just think Dune 2021 explained the plot well enough that the plot points in Lynch's were recognizable. - the worm designs WERE cooler in Lynch imo - I actually liked the opening that explains stuff
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Nov 15, 2021 20:02
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No Mods No Masters posted:I'm not sure what children of dune does honestly. It's mostly just 600 pages It introduces Leto II, who is kind of the tragic central figure of the whole saga. If they do a third movie I really hope that they blend Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:16
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Paddyo posted:It introduces Leto II, who is kind of the tragic central figure of the whole saga. If they do a third movie I really hope that they blend Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. I get that, but a. that is not a lot to accomplish in 600 pages and b. by the time of god emperor leto is obviously a very different character anyway and you can skip straight to that losing surprisingly little. I'm probably in the minority and not trying to convince anyone anyway, but children of dune is a borderline bad book to me. Anyway, the impulse is noble but I don't see how you could possibly blend messiah and children into one movie
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Nov 15, 2021 20:23
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No Mods No Masters posted:Anyway, the impulse is noble but I don't see how you could possibly blend messiah and children into one movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSRJUgEcds4
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Nov 15, 2021 20:40
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:I watched the Lynch Dune last night... The shields do look pretty goofy but I think it adds a baroque, inelegant quality to them. The clunkiness kind of helps sell that they don’t have computers in this setting. The effect was unbelievably painful to pull off too; someone had to cut out a matte for every single flat side of the shield so they could optically print the orange distorted version… for every frame.
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Nov 15, 2021 20:40
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david_a posted:The shields do look pretty goofy but I think it adds a baroque, inelegant quality to them. The clunkiness kind of helps sell that they don’t have computers in this setting. I was just watching the Corridor Crew episode on this where they said it took 9.5 months to do the shields, to which I say ¿lol?
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Nov 15, 2021 21:12
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The United States posted:Isn't that what the SciFi channel Children of Dune miniseries did? That's exactly what it did and it was pretty solid too aside from some really odd casting decisions like the new guy they got for Stilgar, but also James McAvoy/Julie Cox/etc. are really good in it.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:14
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If the Jamis/Paul friendship scenes were prescience of an unrealised future, then the way to have kept both Jamis and Paul alive is for Jessica to be left behind. Obviously you could interpret them as metaphorical visions.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:27
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Neo Rasa posted:That's exactly what it did and it was pretty solid too aside from some really odd casting decisions like the new guy they got for Stilgar, but also James McAvoy/Julie Cox/etc. are really good in it. I thought James McAvoy as Leto and Alice Krige as Jessica were great. I agree that there isn't enough in either Messiah or Children to float a movie each, but I think that between the two you could make something that audiences would engage with. Really though, all I want is for a major studio to say gently caress it and try to adapt God Emperor. What an epic poo poo show that would be!
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Nov 15, 2021 21:33
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