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i can understand not getting why the atreides went to dune in the movie but the book sets the table really well. the harkonnens and atreides have long standing enmity. the atreides are gathering enough political and military power to directly challenge the emperors place as emperor. the emperor tells the harkonnens 'hey lets gently caress the atreides up. ill make them take dune and then help you retake it and extinguish the atreides threat (to both of us). this also wipes out the harkonnens incredible wealth which is a threat to the emperor as well. the atreides cant say "no thanks we good" as the emperor *commanded* them to take over dune. jf they refused the emperor could have merked em directly unless they fled into the fringes of the galaxy. Leto suspected the harkonnens would be coming for them but 1) the atreides vs harkonnens was a fair fight, possibly favoring the atreides due to their sick rear end army, the only reason they lost even in the invasion was due.to the combined forces of harkonnen + sarduakar. and 2) believed the invasion would come much later by which time they'd have an alliance with thr fremen and would win the war in the books the atreides even send a suicide squad to geidi prime and destroys a poo poo ton of the harkonnens spice
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Nov 20, 2021 21:32
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I don't know if they even believe they'll have more time, they just hope they will. Most of that's in the movie, except it isn't established early on that the Atreides and Harkonnens have been feuding, and obvs the suicide squad
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Nov 20, 2021 21:52
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The movie does a lot with tone and economical writing, the "is it done?" from leto is just brutal
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Nov 20, 2021 21:56
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sebmojo posted:The movie does a lot with tone and economical writing, the "is it done?" from leto is just brutal
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Nov 20, 2021 22:15
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:but op, i thought it was the harkonnens who were brutal 
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Nov 20, 2021 22:21
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i unironically fuckin loved that line delivery
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Nov 20, 2021 22:40
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:i unironically fuckin loved that line delivery Same. I bet Villeneuve couldn't believe his luck when Brolin dropped that
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Nov 20, 2021 22:50
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Tarnop posted:Same. I bet Villeneuve couldn't believe his luck when Brolin dropped that i picture him off to the side going more, More, MOOOORRREEE like that starwards guy
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Nov 20, 2021 23:44
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Ej posted:If he DOESN'T think the Harkonnen invasion merits any reprisal that would be a huge red flag that he approved of the outcome. The emperor doesn't have to approve or disapprove as long as the spice keeps flowing. The emperor is (supposed to be) above house feuds. And the part about selling the reserves but not too quickly shows the spice continues to flow. So it doesn't matter whether or not it appears that the emperor tacitly approves of what the Harkonnens did. What matters is whether or not anyone can prove that the emperor aided in the attack.
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Nov 21, 2021 01:39
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sebmojo posted:starwards guy Mods, please
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Nov 21, 2021 02:03
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Steve Yun posted:HONK goons: "i don't understand, did they ever explain what trombone sand is. how are audiences supposed to understand. idgi"
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Nov 21, 2021 05:11
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PeterWeller posted:The emperor doesn't have to approve or disapprove as long as the spice keeps flowing. The emperor is (supposed to be) above house feuds. And the part about selling the reserves but not too quickly shows the spice continues to flow. So it doesn't matter whether or not it appears that the emperor tacitly approves of what the Harkonnens did. What matters is whether or not anyone can prove that the emperor aided in the attack. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Where do you get that the emperor is supposed to be above house feuds? He deliberately provokes the entire plot of the movie. Chani even asks the question at the beginning, "Why would the emperor do this?". With the obliteration of the Atreides, now we know why. Now everyone knows why. There's literally no other explanation. The emperor wanted the Atreides gone, so he took away their rivals toy and gave it to them, then pushed them into a dark alley. The idea that the other houses need to see the emperor holding a smoking gun to be able to accuse him of meddling in inter-house affairs doesn't make any sense to me. Let me pose a hypothetical: Assume that the emperor's plan worked exactly as intended, there are no survivors, nobody suspects sardaukar were involved, there's no Fremen uprising, spice production goes back to normal, everything is good. A few years or decades pass, and another house becomes the popular lightning-rod house that the Atreides were, and they just so happen to have a feud with whoever currently controls Arrakis. The emperor boots the current controlling house off of Arrakis and offers it to the new popular house. Should they accept?
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Nov 21, 2021 05:31
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Ej posted:I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Where do you get that the emperor is supposed to be above house feuds? He deliberately provokes the entire plot of the movie. Chani even asks the question at the beginning, "Why would the emperor do this?". With the obliteration of the Atreides, now we know why. Now everyone knows why. There's literally no other explanation. The emperor wanted the Atreides gone, so he took away their rivals toy and gave it to them, then pushed them into a dark alley. The idea that the other houses need to see the emperor holding a smoking gun to be able to accuse him of meddling in inter-house affairs doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think it's meant to be that obvious to the galaxy at large. It is to the main characters in Dune, but they're also presented as being a few steps ahead of the curve (even before prescience). I think the galaxy is meant to think or Arrakis as a real gift to Leto because he's so cool, and then come to the conclusion that maybe he wasn't so cool after all if the Harkonnens could just waltz in and murk him. He was behind on spice qoutas as well, I hear. Hey maybe the Harkonnens are kind of bad rear end, maybe their dudes are just the balance we all need against the sardaukar! Especially this Feyd guy, what a dreamboat.
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Nov 21, 2021 07:17
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I think the movie is trying to put a contemporary spin on things and is depicting a failing empire where everybody just kind of takes for granted the idea that institutions and the rule of law exists. Then the characters are blindsided by the idea that those institutions don't matter at all and the only thing there is pomp and ceremony. The Atreides failing is believing that anyone will care that what the emperor is doing is illegal.
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Nov 21, 2021 07:48
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Ej posted:I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Where do you get that the emperor is supposed to be above house feuds? He deliberately provokes the entire plot of the movie. Chani even asks the question at the beginning, "Why would the emperor do this?". With the obliteration of the Atreides, now we know why. Now everyone knows why. There's literally no other explanation. The emperor wanted the Atreides gone, so he took away their rivals toy and gave it to them, then pushed them into a dark alley. The idea that the other houses need to see the emperor holding a smoking gun to be able to accuse him of meddling in inter-house affairs doesn't make any sense to me. because it is very obvious that if they turned down their sacred duty or disrespected the emperor's gracious gift they would be crushed with casus belli. why else would they accept the poison chalice?
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Nov 21, 2021 09:45
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It does seem a little strange that the harkonnen can (appear to) just go against the emperors wishes about who should hold arrakis like that. The book at least explains it a little by telling us about kanly and how there's a recognized system that houses will just kill each other and it's considered pretty normal.
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Nov 21, 2021 10:18
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Everyone is allowed to watch movies however they feel like, but Ej I don't know productive it is to expect so much out of the relationship dynamics of institutions that aren't actually in the movie. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 10:49
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sebmojo posted:i picture him off to the side going more, More, MOOOORRREEE like that starwards guy Jack Nicholson, nodding yes.
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Nov 21, 2021 13:01
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I K E A : : D U N C https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD52AJMv1RE
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Nov 21, 2021 15:05
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Crespolini posted:It does seem a little strange that the harkonnen can (appear to) just go against the emperors wishes about who should hold arrakis like that. The book at least explains it a little by telling us about kanly and how there's a recognized system that houses will just kill each other and it's considered pretty normal. Arrakis isn't subject to the same rules as other planets. If the Harkonnens wipe out the Atreides that sucks, but any retaliation (from the emperor had he not been involved, or from another house who liked Atreides) would mean disruption in the flow of spice. Just letting the Harkonnens keep Arrakis is the lesser of two evils E: Dunc leaves HBO today, I don't know how long it'll be up, but if you were planning to rewatch then now may be the time 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 16:13
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People in this thread need to play more Crusader Kings if they think feudal vassals under the same ruler having wars between each other is weird
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Nov 21, 2021 16:45
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2house2fly posted:Arrakis isn't subject to the same rules as other planets. If the Harkonnens wipe out the Atreides that sucks, but any retaliation (from the emperor had he not been involved, or from another house who liked Atreides) would mean disruption in the flow of spice. Just letting the Harkonnens keep Arrakis is the lesser of two evils Does it? Can't he just order them to leave again and put someone else in? I just think this makes the emperor look very weak, which is something he'd be keen to avoid.
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Nov 21, 2021 18:30
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Everyone is allowed to watch movies however they feel like, but Ej I don't know productive it is to expect so much out of the relationship dynamics of institutions that aren't actually in the movie. This whole conversation started because I said exactly that. These relationship dynamics aren't known, because they never show up, and that's a shame because it would give better context to what's actually happening. That's all I said, it was a simple gripe. But everyone then responded by saying it's completely obvious how those relationship dynamics work because of stuff that either paints the houses as idiots, or isn't in the movie. Shanty posted:I don't think it's meant to be that obvious to the galaxy at large. It is to the main characters in Dune, but they're also presented as being a few steps ahead of the curve (even before prescience). Like, maybe this is true, but it seems weird for the Fremen to understand politics better than the houses. They understand the emperor is plotting something as soon as the Harkonnen take off, but the houses think it's just a completely above board gesture of niceness? And nobody has any suspicion whatsoever when they end up getting destroyed, even though the prowess of their fighters was renowned and well known? If this is the level the houses are capable of playing at then it takes away from the movie for me. It would be a story of an adult beating up children, which is neither surprising nor interesting. And then there's this: Famethrowa posted:because it is very obvious that if they turned down their sacred duty or disrespected the emperor's gracious gift they would be crushed with casus belli. why else would they accept the poison chalice? Which seams to be implying that the emperor gave them a "very obvious" death sentence. Go to Arrakis and get murdered by your rival, or stay where you are and get murdered by me. Unless we are, again, meant to think that none of the houses can put two and two together after the Atreides get murdered. This was the point of the hypothetical. If nobody gets it, after the whole thing goes down, then the emperor has basically found one weird trick to utterly destroy any house he pleases. Simplex posted:I think the movie is trying to put a contemporary spin on things and is depicting a failing empire where everybody just kind of takes for granted the idea that institutions and the rule of law exists. Then the characters are blindsided by the idea that those institutions don't matter at all and the only thing there is pomp and ceremony. The Atreides failing is believing that anyone will care that what the emperor is doing is illegal. Ya, this is pretty much where I land.
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Nov 21, 2021 19:12
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Crespolini posted:Does it? Can't he just order them to leave again and put someone else in? This too. My takeaway from the beginning is that if the emperor doesn't come down hard on the Harkonnen after this then he looks either weak, dangerously stupid, or complicit.
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Nov 21, 2021 19:28
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Ej posted:Which seams to be implying that the emperor gave them a "very obvious" death sentence. Go to Arrakis and get murdered by your rival, or stay where you are and get murdered by me. Unless we are, again, meant to think that none of the houses can put two and two together after the Atreides get murdered. This was the point of the hypothetical. If nobody gets it, after the whole thing goes down, then the emperor has basically found one weird trick to utterly destroy any house he pleases. At the cost of like one century's profits of spice production though.
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Nov 21, 2021 19:32
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uXs posted:At the cost of like one century's profits of spice production though. Again, where do you get this? The Harkonnen didn't have to dip into their reserves at all to fund the invasion. How much of their assets are liquid, and how much are in the reserves? We don't know. Maybe this cost 100 years worth of spice production or maybe it cost 5.
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Nov 21, 2021 20:30
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In an early scene, Gurney says that the Harkonnens ran Arrakis for 80 years, commenting "Imagine the wealth!" After the attack, Baron Harkonnen says "you have no idea how much it cost me to bring such a force to bear here" and stresses to Rabbah that their spice reserves must be sold for the maximum profit possible. The implication is that the Harkonnens were extremely wealthy, but have become significantly less so as a direct result of attacking the Atreides
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Nov 21, 2021 20:39
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Ej posted:Again, where do you get this? The Harkonnen didn't have to dip into their reserves at all to fund the invasion. How much of their assets are liquid, and how much are in the reserves? We don't know. Maybe this cost 100 years worth of spice production or maybe it cost 5. the baron says it was extremely expensive, so he's either lying to his nephew or it was extremely expensive.
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Nov 21, 2021 21:07
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sebmojo posted:the baron says it was extremely expensive, so he's either lying to his nephew or it was extremely expensive. I get what OP is saying: "extremely expensive" covers everything from "a few less oil rejuvenations this year" to "it bankrupt the house and we have 30 days to make more spice before the emperor sends us to the Bone Zone."
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Nov 21, 2021 21:37
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I get what OP is saying: "extremely expensive" covers everything from "a few less oil rejuvenations this year" to "it bankrupt the house and we have 30 days to make more spice before the emperor sends us to the Bone Zone." It's right in between 'ouch' and 'boiiiiiing'.
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Nov 21, 2021 22:55
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sebmojo posted:the baron says it was extremely expensive, so he's either lying to his nephew or it was extremely expensive. "Extremely expensive" can mean a lot of things, especially when coming from the (possibly second?) richest man in the universe. 5 years spice production would be insanely expensive. 1 month's production would as well. What would Jeff Bezos call extremely expensive for a loss? An hour's expenses (not just profits) from amazon would probably be more than any of us will see in a lifetime. Would Elon Musk consider $1 million expensive if he spent it on something trivial? Probably not. If he had to pay an extra $1 million in taxes he'd probably yell at the Tesla executives to find a way to make that back by reducing bonuses or using shittier airbags or something.
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Nov 22, 2021 00:04
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Ej posted:I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Where do you get that the emperor is supposed to be above house feuds? He deliberately provokes the entire plot of the movie. Chani even asks the question at the beginning, "Why would the emperor do this?". With the obliteration of the Atreides, now we know why. Now everyone knows why. There's literally no other explanation. The emperor wanted the Atreides gone, so he took away their rivals toy and gave it to them, then pushed them into a dark alley. The idea that the other houses need to see the emperor holding a smoking gun to be able to accuse him of meddling in inter-house affairs doesn't make any sense to me. Fair enough. The house feuds and the emperor's relationship to them is some book stuff I'm bringing in. But again, it doesn't matter if everyone sees that the emperor obviously set things up so the Harkonnens could destroy the Atreides. As long as no one can prove the emperor was directly involved via his own shock troops, he can have the plausible deniability necessary to satisfy whatever ancient pacts the system is based upon. As far as everyone else knows, he found a novel way to eliminate and up and coming rival that may have violated the spirit of space law, but not its letter. As for your hypothetical, they have to accept. The emperor commands it. Kinda great for him that he has this terrible catch-22 he can inflict on any house that gets too far out of line. Ej posted:Like, maybe this is true, but it seems weird for the Fremen to understand politics better than the houses. I don't think they really get the nuance of what's going on. Chani asks why would the emperor do this and asks who their next oppressors will be. quote:Which seams to be implying that the emperor gave them a "very obvious" death sentence. Go to Arrakis and get murdered by your rival, or stay where you are and get murdered by me. Unless we are, again, meant to think that none of the houses can put two and two together after the Atreides get murdered. This was the point of the hypothetical. If nobody gets it, after the whole thing goes down, then the emperor has basically found one weird trick to utterly destroy any house he pleases. It is a very obvious death sentence, which is why Leto sees it as such. That's why he's not surprised that the attack comes, only that it comes so soon. The emperor has indeed found a great trick to destroy any house that displeases him. The movie does a pretty solid job of conveying how diabolical he is without even showing him.
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Nov 22, 2021 00:10
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The baron doesn't just say it cost a lot of money, he says it cost a lot of money as an explanation for why he wants his nephew to squeeze as hard as he can to extract profit from their spice reserves
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Nov 22, 2021 00:11
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2house2fly posted:The baron doesn't just say it cost a lot of money, he says it cost a lot of money as an explanation for why he wants his nephew to squeeze as hard as he can to extract profit from their spice reserves he says 'you have no idea how much it cost me to bring such a force to bear here, now i only have one requirement: income' this is a dumb argument, you can read between the lines, you can refer to the specific words in the book, you can infer from the (presented as smart and capable) atreides being astonished by the scale of the attack, it's really not ambiguous
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Nov 22, 2021 00:22
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Also at the start of the film where we have no context for anything Oscar Isaac asks how much money it costs just to bring the imperial delegation to Caladan and we get a number that is implied to be impressively expensive.
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Nov 22, 2021 00:28
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Alchenar posted:Also at the start of the film where we have no context for anything Oscar Isaac asks how much money it costs just to bring the imperial delegation to Caladan and we get a number that is implied to be impressively expensive. Yes but what if we ignore that and then complain
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Nov 22, 2021 01:00
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If people can't get from the film that the emperor is supposed to be above inter-house feuds then I don't know what to say really. If the emperor could get directly involved with impunity then there would be no need to keep Sardaukar involvement a secret. The emperor's command to keep it secret is stated explicitly in the scene on Giedi Prime with the silence field. Does the film really need a scene explaining why he can't get involved, and why it doesn't matter that his power-play is obvious, or can the audience be trusted to infer that the tangle of laws, traditions and customs that have always defined human politics continue to define them in a future where we've reverted to feudalism? At least now we know who the *tap-tap* "drum sand!" line was for Tarnop fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Nov 22, 2021 |
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Nov 22, 2021 03:20
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Paul trying to run away on clown sand, the honks are attracting the worms, he's scared but can't stop laughing
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Nov 22, 2021 06:11
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2house2fly posted:Paul trying to run away on clown sand, the honks are attracting the worms, he's scared but can't stop laughing The worm turns up but its incredibly tiny, and fremen start pouring out of it, this absurd quantity of fremen
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Nov 22, 2021 06:28
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Nov 22, 2021 07:04
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