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Also even if you do get the big fusion explosion, it tends to look a lot like an actual nuclear weapon went off. Which is the sort of thing that gets houses eradicated due to the ban on nuclear warfare.
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Nov 27, 2021 17:39
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Neo Rasa posted:He sees the expected protracted sabotage and economic warfare right in front of him between cemented in assassin, the carry-all malfunctioning (in the book it just doesn't show up because it was supposedly shot down), etc.. it doesn't show up, but wasn't shot down. just missing in action during the rescue. Harkonnen agents among the crew hijack it and and try to sell to the smuggler Tuek's outfit who immediately hand them over to the Artredies. that plays out in the great dinner party scene. sets things up that you might think that maybe the Atredies are really getting a handle on the situation and they still might not be doomed yet.
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Nov 27, 2021 17:55
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The lasgun-shield interaction might be the clumsiest thing in the original story. As far I can tell only exists because Herbert wanted sword fights in his pastiche, and while scifi shields explain why people don't use guns they don't explain why people don't use laser guns, which everyone knows are a thing which will definitely exist in the future.
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Nov 27, 2021 18:01
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The genetic explanation for ancestral memory doesn't make much sense anymore either, and is probably just an artifact of a 1960s author using "genetics" as one would use "quantum" today. That, and nobody really caring enough to set up spice production on another planet until chapterhouse. It works for me, I get wanting to find out-of-book explanations that allows for these things to make sense, but Dune isn't really a hard-scifi series that relies on total self-consistency of the in-universe rules for the story to work.
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Nov 27, 2021 18:22
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Are personal shields even that common? It’s may not be like every mook can get one.
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Nov 27, 2021 19:14
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Mata posted:The genetic explanation for ancestral memory doesn't make much sense anymore either, and is probably just an artifact of a 1960s author using "genetics" as one would use "quantum" today. That, and nobody really caring enough to set up spice production on another planet until chapterhouse. It doesn't make sense in regards to real life physics, but it's internally consistent within the story. The lasgun-shield thing is a fix to a problem he didn't need to introduce.
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Nov 27, 2021 19:26
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One of the best things about dune is how it mostly holds up to medium scrutiny. The lasgun/shield thing is a notable exception, that was frank rushing to get through some poo poo he thought he needed to explain for some reason but didn't really care about, I think
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Nov 27, 2021 19:33
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Cerv posted:it doesn't show up, but wasn't shot down. just missing in action during the rescue. The movie definitely could have made it more clear that without Yueh’s sabotage, the Atreides would have been fine. But movies have their own constraints. I need to watch it again. I’m curious how it holds up on a second viewing.
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Nov 27, 2021 23:53
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Schwarzwald posted:The lasgun-shield interaction might be the clumsiest thing in the original story. As far I can tell only exists because Herbert wanted sword fights in his pastiche, and while scifi shields explain why people don't use guns they don't explain why people don't use laser guns, which everyone knows are a thing which will definitely exist in the future. No Mods No Masters posted:One of the best things about dune is how it mostly holds up to medium scrutiny. The lasgun/shield thing is a notable exception, that was frank rushing to get through some poo poo he thought he needed to explain for some reason but didn't really care about, I think Kurzon fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 00:05
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I'm not sure it's clear that computers would fix the issues inherent to the FTL travel in Dune. While it's very handwavey, there may be something inconsistent or seemingly random about the way they "teleport" that makes prescience basically required for consistently safe travel. Otherwise Mentats would probably be able to do it? Or at least you'd expect some mention of why they're not able to.
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Nov 28, 2021 00:34
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We have no evidence that a religion can last 10,000 years because there hasn’t been 10,000 years of human history. There’s no evidence in either direction because there’s no relevant data. You can’t draw a conclusion. You can say it seems unlikely to you, I guess, but you’d just making poo poo up in any direction anyway.
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Nov 28, 2021 01:38
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Nov 28, 2021 01:43
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Considering the age of Hinduism and Judaism I'm not sure any institution OTHER than religion could plausibly survive 10,000 years Edit: Also yes what you're describing is a central plot point in God-Emperor AnEdgelord fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 01:44
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Mata posted:The genetic explanation for ancestral memory doesn't make much sense anymore either, and is probably just an artifact of a 1960s author using "genetics" as one would use "quantum" today. That, and nobody really caring enough to set up spice production on another planet until chapterhouse. It didn't age but it's not pulled out of thin air. In the last 50s- early 60s there was a ton of press given to an experiment that claimed they trained flatworms to run a maze, then the trained worms were slurried and fed to other flatworms they gained the memory of the conditioning through the RNA. It ended up getting debunked for years because no one could recreate the results but about 4-5 years ago a team figured it out and were able to recreate a similar result.
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Nov 28, 2021 01:46
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The first book mentions that the planets Ix and Richese make more use of machines, but also that there are specific reasons why they're allowed to that we don't have time to go into now. I wouldn't be surprised if the space guild lets some places try machines out to a limited extent to avoid it having some forbidden allure
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Nov 28, 2021 02:00
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Xiahou Dun posted:We have no evidence that a religion can last 10,000 years because there hasn’t been 10,000 years of human history. There’s no evidence in either direction because there’s no relevant data. You can’t draw a conclusion. It also marks the point in time where the proliferation and growth of the human species really kicked into gear, and recorded history only covers about half of that. Somewhat related, there's a calendar that tries to address this, called the Holocene calendar. I don't know that I find it completely unbelievable that religions would survive ten thousands of years, given how humanity in the books have undergone a diaspora which could conceivably have gone some way to curb the kinds of things that tend to change religions, such as wars, persecutions of people (with one major exception), and such. There's also something to be said for how our current religions are a mix of many older religions, much like how Christianity appropriated many things from the Norse people, and plenty of other examples.
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Nov 28, 2021 02:15
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"Dyeus" is the proto-Indo-European word for the chief sky god so 4000 years later I feel like that concept is still prominent in people's lives.
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Nov 28, 2021 02:46
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Arglebargle III posted:"Dyeus" is the proto-Indo-European word for the chief sky god so 4000 years later I feel like that concept is still prominent in people's lives. Deiwos. Dyeu- is the source of that, meaning “to shine”.
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Nov 28, 2021 02:49
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One of the many cool world building done in the second half of Neil Stephenson’s Seveneves is that humanity reached a genetic bottleneck and an entire reborn civilization came out of it, but that period had perfect recordings exist until the present time three thousand years later. Religions would be a lot weirder if you had basically archived livestreams of the day to day happenings of your ancient messiahs. Of course that whole last half the books has so many cool ideas that are kinda unserved by it being a Neil Stephenson novel and thus he gets bored and drops the story ending extremely abruptly.
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Nov 28, 2021 04:15
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Kurzon posted:One thing that bugs me about the story is that humans need navigators, and therefore the spice, because of a religious edict against thinking machines, an edict which exists because of a war that happened more than 10,000 years ago. No religion has lasted that long. Humans should have gotten over their old fear of thinking machines, whether out of wisdom or forgetfulness. There are huge incentives. If humanity brought back thinking machines, at least for foldspace navigation, then they could break the Spacing Guild's monopoly, and spice would become a lot cheaper. And after Paul takes over Arrakis, thereby grabbing the emperor by the balls, that's an added incentive. Even if religion couldn't last that long, do you really think a group with a vested interest in keeping the monopoly, control over shipping supply routes and the ability to see the future wouldn't nip any potential futures where AI gets more acceptance in the bud?
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Nov 28, 2021 06:10
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jeeves posted:One of the many cool world building done in the second half of Neil Stephenson’s Seveneves is that humanity reached a genetic bottleneck and an entire reborn civilization came out of it, but that period had perfect recordings exist until the present time three thousand years later. Religions would be a lot weirder if you had basically archived livestreams of the day to day happenings of your ancient messiahs. Ideology has broken people in America to the point where they can look at an event that was recorded frame-by-frame from multiple angles and they can reach radically different interpretations of what they are seeing.
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Nov 28, 2021 12:33
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Reading Dune rn This is the only mention of drum sands:  Someone two pages back half-remembered a passage where the Baron goes "maybe Rabban isn't quite as stupid as I thought", here it is:  Finally, Herbert also thinks subtext is for cowards: 
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Nov 28, 2021 13:24
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I did the Leonardo Dicaprio pointing meme when I read this:
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Nov 28, 2021 14:06
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2house2fly posted:I did the Leonardo Dicaprio pointing meme when I read this: EDIT: I remember people complaining that the Fremen keep removing their mouth coverings to speak, but they do that in the book as well! Simply Simon fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Nov 28, 2021 |
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Nov 28, 2021 14:23
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Yeah IIRC while the stillsuit isn't like being intubated there's still more to it than just a mask so of course if you want to be heard clearly you're gonna move it a little. Also no mentioning of desert power is worse than William Hurt explaining it to Paul in the sci-fi mini-series (and I say this even as an unapologetic sci-fi mini-series liker).
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Nov 28, 2021 18:24
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jeeves posted:One of the many cool world building done in the second half of Neil Stephenson’s Seveneves is that humanity reached a genetic bottleneck and an entire reborn civilization came out of it, but that period had perfect recordings exist until the present time three thousand years later. Religions would be a lot weirder if you had basically archived livestreams of the day to day happenings of your ancient messiahs. It's not even the last half, the time jump is something like the last 20% of the book, and then it ends right when it starts getting interesting. gently caress I hated that book.
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Nov 28, 2021 18:26
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I didn't have an issue with taking the masks off to be heard, it was more them being off most of the time so we could see faces. It makes sense for a movie but is still kind of annoying because it undercuts the message of how unforgiving the desert is supposed to be. Like at the end as they are walking in the sun to Sietch Tabr EVERYONE has their mask off. For what reason?
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Nov 28, 2021 18:29
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2house2fly posted:The first book mentions that the planets Ix and Richese make more use of machines, but also that there are specific reasons why they're allowed to that we don't have time to go into now. I wouldn't be surprised if the space guild lets some places try machines out to a limited extent to avoid it having some forbidden allure
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Nov 28, 2021 18:57
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Even if religion couldn't last that long, do you really think a group with a vested interest in keeping the monopoly, control over shipping supply routes and the ability to see the future wouldn't nip any potential futures where AI gets more acceptance in the bud?
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Nov 28, 2021 18:57
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Kurzon posted:The Spacing Guild couldn't prevent Paul's rise, and in a later book the Ixians do indeed create AI navigation machines to break the Spacing Guild monopoly. Paul is also prescient though, prescient people can't be predicted with prescience. Its a huge plot point in Messiah. As for the Ixian machine they actually did that with the assistance of the Guild because Leto's engineered spice famine forced them to develop alternative ways to navigate, even if those alternatives broke their monopoly
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Nov 28, 2021 20:37
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Arglebargle III posted:"Dyeus" is the proto-Indo-European word for the chief sky god so 4000 years later I feel like that concept is still prominent in people's lives. Dyeus-pater, sky father, is the etymological root of Jupiter.
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Nov 28, 2021 21:22
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Unormal posted:Dyeus-pater, sky father, is the etymological root of Jupiter. *Deiwos-pəter was the PIE, plus some fuckery with the vowels because of vocative. The Latin was Iuppiter, but the orthography was more than likely hiding a consonant cause that's how Latin did.
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Nov 28, 2021 21:32
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AnEdgelord posted:Paul is also prescient though, prescient people can't be predicted with prescience. Its a huge plot point in Messiah. It's in the original book too isn't it? The guild consults the Reverend Mother about a growing skein in the tapestry that the navigators have no visibility to that engulfs Arrakis.
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Nov 29, 2021 02:43
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Halloween Jack posted:My assumption has always been that those two planets managed to achieve some kind of global bourgeois capitalism before they were reintegrated into the Imperium following the Butlerian Jihad. So they're allowed to keep their weird technocratic society and develop technology for the Imperium. They're adjacent to the feudal system, like the Guild and BG, but less important. Until God-Emperor when they suddenly become really important. Yeah I always had this same mindset. I remember a common interpretation (before the prequel books I forget if those went into more detail about these two worlds). was that when the navigator mentions Ix's machine's being better they're kinda roundabout sorta-envisioning Ix making more complex (i.e., thinking) machines and not just the general technology them and Richese are known for. Like the guild navigators are so into their own spice stuff they literally couldn't make small talk if they tried.
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Nov 29, 2021 05:56
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I feel like the Jihad in the books is really weird--it's something Paul doesn't want to happen, and the Fremen seem like chill Zen Sufis who just want to get high, ride worms, and grow plants all day. There's zero sense of any kind of evangelizing zeal or expansionist/imperial interests on their part in the first book. I guess killing the Sardaukar made them really like killing? Not to mention the logistics of a couple million dudes wiping out the galaxy (even if they are really good at...swordfighting?!)
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Nov 29, 2021 06:15
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The Encyclopedia's explanation was that House Corrino had generally had a high tolerance for subversion, on the grounds that even if a Great House wasn't trustworty, anybody they replaced them with probably wouldn't be any better. If they stepped too far out of line, the Sardaukar would be sent in to smack them around a bit, and then back to business as normal. That meant that a lot of Great Houses, when they learnt that the Padishah Emperor had been deposed, decided that the time was right for them to try and strike out on their own, and see whether they could secede from the Empire. As it turned out, the Fremen took betrayal of their Mahdi a lot more seriously, and didn't have any custom of showing clemency to defeated enemies. Apart from that, the Fremen did change by coming into contact with the rest of the galaxy. For them, it meant coming into contact with cultures and religious traditions they had never encountered before, couldn't even imagine, and in many cases found somewhere between disgusting and horrifying. There was a general shift in the Fremen soldiery from being strictly servants of the Mahdi, including in matters of offworld politics, to dreaming of a 'purified' empire, and putting their dreams into effect. Finally, it's not like the Fremen are that chill. They're the latest descendants of the Zensunni wanderers, who had a long history of being defeated and enslaved by parts of the Corrino Empire, and sent to the worst shitholes in the universe (including Salusa Secundus) as disposable labour. As the Encyclopedia puts it, in its description of Fremen education: "Q: What are the two things never to do?" "A: To forgive, and to forget." So a large part of the Jihad was probably settling some very, very old grudges.
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Nov 29, 2021 07:04
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No Mods No Masters posted:One of the best things about dune is how it mostly holds up to medium scrutiny. The lasgun/shield thing is a notable exception, that was frank rushing to get through some poo poo he thought he needed to explain for some reason but didn't really care about, I think Yeah, John Scalzi has said in the past that your tech, magic, or whatever similar thing should function at two questions deep. Example: 1. Why do people use shields? To protect them from harm. 2. Why haven't they invented a gun that can shoot through the shield? Their most advanced guns are lasguns and the beam reacts with the shield to produce a nuclear explosion. At this point, at this time in the story, that's just where the tech is at and the way around it is to fight in melee which creates a somewhat unique setting where the only way to fight is in melee, where assassination is even more important. You explain things just enough for most readers and audience members to accept it and for your setting to feel real and plausible. It's a good compromise between "that's just the way it works" and "here are the physics and quantum mechanics for why this would theoretically work." Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Nov 29, 2021 |
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Nov 29, 2021 07:29
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Simply Simon posted:Yeah I also lol'd whenever I read a line in the book that people called bad writing in the movie Dune is many wonderful things that I enjoy but "well-written" is not one of them. Herbert wrote like the engineer he was, and it's a miracle it's readable.
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Nov 29, 2021 07:43
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I think it reads great but I'm also STEM as gently caress so the story checks out
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Nov 29, 2021 08:29
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Apparently he wrote most of it as haiku then filled in words to make it read like a novel
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Nov 29, 2021 08:43
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