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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pretty much everything about the Drow isn't even so much 'aged poorly' as 'only got away with it in the first place because it's in incredibly niche media by and for complete dorklords who read too many pulpy fantasy novels'. The drow by and large are fine. It’s just RA Salvatore smashing pop culture takes on the Mafia and femdom together to flesh out a city for Drizzt to come from. The two things that get criticism are a) they all have black skin (which wasn’t D&D’s problem in the first place, since the drow are the dark elves of Norse mythology originally) and b) “all drow are innately evil” which was never a problem for 20 years of publishing the drow until the ghastly loving Lady Penitent trilogy (basically you can un-evil drow babies in the womb and wow they have white skin when you do that) and was made worse by 5e loving with the lore of the drow’s origin (by making the evil of the drow a curse upon the race itself, instead of the previous portrayals of the drow being evil by cultural pressures that existed prior to the drow becoming cursed). You can argue drow with black skin aged poorly because fantasy evil races with all black skin are certainly a political flashpoint today, sure, but it wasn’t really a “got away with it” as there wasn’t anything to object to for decades (with the exception of white nerds doing bad drow blackface at cons).
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Dec 4, 2021 07:04
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Arivia posted:The drow by and large are fine. It’s just RA Salvatore smashing pop culture takes on the Mafia and femdom together to flesh out a city for Drizzt to come from. 
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Dec 4, 2021 07:27
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Arivia posted:a) they all have black skin (which wasn’t D&D’s problem in the first place, since the drow are the dark elves of Norse mythology originally) Which of course absolves them completely!
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Dec 4, 2021 07:57
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packetmantis posted:Which of course absolves them completely! It certainly puts it squarely in the category of “this is black because of darkness” not “this is black because of Black people”, yes. So unless there’s some criticism of D&D’s portrayal of drow over the past decades that directly ties it to Blackness or media portrayals of Black people (and I’m not aware of one), there’s no connection there. As I already said, fantasy races that are black-skinned haven’t aged well and aren’t politically acceptable today, but that doesn’t mean Gygax or Salvatore were being racist towards Black people when they wrote about the drow decades ago.
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Dec 4, 2021 08:06
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Arivia posted:It certainly puts it squarely in the category of “this is black because of darkness” not “this is black because of Black people”, yes. So unless there’s some criticism of D&D’s portrayal of drow over the past decades that directly ties it to Blackness or media portrayals of Black people (and I’m not aware of one), there’s no connection there. Do you think black people loving care precisely why the evil dark-skinned people are dark skinned?
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Dec 4, 2021 08:12
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packetmantis posted:Do you think black people loving care precisely why the evil dark-skinned people are dark skinned? The human fear of the dark and shadowy creatures lurking within it predates language and civilization. Since we learned to tell stories humans have always told myths of scary things in places we can’t see. That is the Norse dark elf, and following from that, D&D’s drow. (And humans still tell stories about spooky things in the dark today.) Do I think Black people are unjustified in being upset with drow in D&D today, especially considering the last 15 years of publishing I summarized? No. But there’s nothing in the essential nature of the drow as originally established to suggest it’s some racial stereotype or idea, and this thread’s explicit purpose is for making and discussing those distinctions.
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Dec 4, 2021 08:23
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Eh, do you have any evidence that the Norse drow weren't related to the perception of black people among the Norse? The Norse were famously well traveled. There's also podcast of medieval literature professors (Saga Thing) that discussed a minor black character showing up and (I think, been a bit since I listened) that he was part of an uncommon but present trope in the sagas of magical black men. I'm not confident it is or isn't, but you're pretty hard on that conclusion that it isn't without a great premise to base that on.
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Dec 4, 2021 09:20
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What do the Drow think of Black Friday?
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Dec 4, 2021 09:52
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Declaring that an entire sentient race is always evil already puts you in bad territory even before you consider any other additional variables.
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Dec 4, 2021 09:57
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Arivia posted:As I already said, fantasy races that are black-skinned haven’t aged well and aren’t politically acceptable today, but that doesn’t mean Gygax or Salvatore were being racist towards Black people when they wrote about the drow decades ago. Gary Gygax posted:Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. If you have read the account of wooden Leg, a warrior of the Cheyenne tribe that fought against Custer et al., he dispassionately noted killing an enemy squaw for the reason in question. Now, why would someone assume Gygax's work would be tainted by racism?!
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Dec 4, 2021 10:06
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Did the Drow also get their dark skin from their curse, or is that just a thing for the Elder Scrolls dark elves?
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Dec 4, 2021 10:37
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Blue Moonlight posted:What do the Drow think of Black Friday? Oh no its in a second thread now
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Dec 4, 2021 11:00
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Acute Grill posted:Declaring that an entire sentient race is always evil already puts you in bad territory even before you consider any other additional variables. quote:squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types. D&D is moving away from "evil races" in the foreseable future, apparently: https://www.pcgamer.com/dandd-is-trying-to-move-away-from-racial-stereotypes/
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Dec 4, 2021 11:47
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PharmerBoy posted:There's also podcast of medieval literature professors (Saga Thing) that discussed a minor black character showing up and (I think, been a bit since I listened) that he was part of an uncommon but present trope in the sagas of magical black men. Oh thats interesting ive never heard of this trope. Do you remember the name of the podcast? E: oh nvm Saga thing was the name. The only black viking i remember reading about was geirmundur heljarskinn. He was half asian (his mother was mongolian) but he was called black because he had darker skin than usual and black hair. But Vikings did travel to and work in muslim countries so stories about black africans most likely made their way to scandinavia. And they also took slaves to do trell work, so there is the possibility of some being black africans. datajugend has a new favorite as of 12:36 on Dec 4, 2021 |
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Dec 4, 2021 12:32
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Cat Army |
Are we forgetting totally historically accurate documentary The 13th Warrior?
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Dec 4, 2021 12:39
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That Italian Guy posted:Are we forgetting totally historically accurate documentary The 13th Warrior? Oh yeah thats true, that movie is partially based on an arab man who travelled to scandinavia. A darker skinned man from a world that was ahead in science and technology could be a magic black man.
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Dec 4, 2021 12:49
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Don't forget that the Byzantines traditionally had Viking bodyguards.
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Dec 4, 2021 13:38
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Don't forget that the Byzantines traditionally had Viking bodyguards. Known as "the emperor's wine bags" because of their habit of heavy drinking.
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Dec 4, 2021 13:42
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lmao, i love how the " can color metaphors be racist" discussion wound up in here organically. goons in pyf very much do not like the idea that color metaphors can be interpreted in clearly problematic ways and will reiterate over and over that the history of its use makes such a thing impossible. imagine a white english teacher explaining to their black class in exasperation where the word niggardly actually comes from, thats kind of the level of discourse where this is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDa0gSuAcg Jokerpilled Drudge has a new favorite as of 14:10 on Dec 4, 2021 |
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Dec 4, 2021 13:48
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Don't forget that the Byzantines traditionally had Viking bodyguards. I know the "viking graffiti at the hagia sofia" is kind a cliche cool-history-fact, but I really like how it completely breaks people's pre-conceptions about how isolated people were in Ye Olden Times. It's all too easy to think of history as a bunch of discrete peoples and events that never interacted at all.
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Dec 4, 2021 14:10
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Jokerpilled Drudge posted:lmao, i love how the " can color metaphors be racist" discussion wound up in here organically. goons in pyf very much do not like the idea that color metaphors can be interpreted in clearly problematic ways and will reiterate over and over that the history of its use makes such a thing impossible. imagine a white english teacher explaining to their black class in exasperation where the word niggardly actually comes from, thats kind of the level of discourse where this is at look what you've done now, you've summoned this one
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Dec 4, 2021 14:42
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Drow Piet is a beloved Christmas tradition!
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Dec 4, 2021 16:51
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I also dont feel like 'black' fantasy variants were at first created with racist intentions.. Its just that mindset of "black looks cool and evil. And if it works for a dragon, why not a humanoid as well?". (Granted, I think D&D is also moving away from always evil Black Dragons) For a more problematic fantasy, I can already look at my own country's proud tradition of Zwarte Piet/Black Pete. What fun.
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Dec 4, 2021 16:55
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Sanctimoniously capitalizing Black as I expound upon why this racist caricature is different because I like it
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Dec 4, 2021 17:14
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drow are really funny when you just remember that they only exist because the writer was so angry at His Freakin Ex-Wife
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Dec 4, 2021 17:15
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I haven't seen a drow elf racism argument on this site in drat near 10 years.
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Dec 4, 2021 17:16
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Alaois posted:drow are really funny when you just remember that they only exist because the writer was so angry at His Freakin Ex-Wife Wait, what? I need to know more on that one
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Dec 4, 2021 17:25
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RenegadeStyle1 posted:I haven't seen a drow elf racism argument on this site in drat near 10 years. Better milk it for what it's worth, then! The Drow are canonically much shorter than other types of elves, which means they're actually a racist caricature of Italians, a squat and swarthy people. Salvatore's editor famously forced him to completely remove Drizzt's catchphrase "Mama mia!" and it's just another example of SJWs censoring a true visionary
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Dec 4, 2021 17:29
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I'm reminded (in a good way) of the parts in Ben Aaronovich's Rivers of London where the protagonist has to occasionally tell his (well intentioned but much older) magic teacher not to call it "black magic".
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Dec 4, 2021 17:57
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DeafNote posted:I also dont feel like 'black' fantasy variants were at first created with racist intentions.. Its just that mindset of "black looks cool and evil. And if it works for a dragon, why not a humanoid as well?". Isn't that largely what racism means? A prejudice that becomes so ingrained its systemic? Like you can easily use 'black' as shorthand to tell someone that something is evil.
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Dec 4, 2021 18:03
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Isn't that largely what racism means? A prejudice that becomes so ingrained its systemic? Like you can easily use 'black' as shorthand to tell someone that something is evil. I could just be naïve here I suppose but I dont think 'darkness' as an evil concept started that way but more as an embodiment of the night and the unknown and all that stuff. I dont deny that prejudices became a part of it along the way and that its just ingrained in many people now without them realizing it. docbeard posted:I'm reminded (in a good way) of the parts in Ben Aaronovich's Rivers of London where the protagonist has to occasionally tell his (well intentioned but much older) magic teacher not to call it "black magic". That just reminds me that Black Magician became Dark Magician in the translated version of YGO.
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Dec 4, 2021 18:11
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I've often liked the drow/dark elf equivalents in media that was clearly inspired by D&D, so it's always weird when I try to follow back to the origin and see ooooooooh god-level Weird Racism. For some reason a lot of that gets shed when other people try things! Final Fantasy XIV has my favorite attempt at them right now, although the developers admittedly barely touch their story. FFXIV dark elves are essentially just indigenous people who've been displaced and screwed out of their homeland (with a little bit of pre-20th Century Jews being readable into it too); there is a really cool ancestral cave-city, but they haven't been able to live in it for centuries.
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Dec 4, 2021 18:36
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I mean the Scandinavians were racist because everyone was. Not in the modern sense of white versus black but in the classical sense in that you were extremely racist against everyone that wasn’t your people. Like how the English were extremely racist against the Flemish. A concept that would be extremely confusing to a modern audience
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Dec 4, 2021 19:10
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DeafNote posted:I could just be naïve here I suppose but I dont think 'darkness' as an evil concept started that way but more as an embodiment of the night and the unknown and all that stuff. No, you're not just being naive: darkness as a concept of evil does indeed predate modern conception of race. Even the ancient Egyptians associated the two. christmas boots has a new favorite as of 19:15 on Dec 4, 2021 |
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Dec 4, 2021 19:11
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PharmerBoy posted:Eh, do you have any evidence that the Norse drow weren't related to the perception of black people among the Norse? The Norse were famously well traveled. There's also podcast of medieval literature professors (Saga Thing) that discussed a minor black character showing up and (I think, been a bit since I listened) that he was part of an uncommon but present trope in the sagas of magical black men. I might be wrong and I’m willing to admit that. My understanding of Norse dark elves is that they’re explicitly black due to living underground and working in forges.
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Dec 4, 2021 19:15
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christmas boots posted:No, you're not just being naive: darkness as a concept of evil does indeed predate modern conception of race. Even the ancient Egyptians associated the two. Yep there wasn’t a group of people that Egypt had a very fraught relationship with who were black An extremely fraught relationship
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Dec 4, 2021 19:18
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I'm not sure y'all, I just don't think something that a bunch of mostly white young male wargaming turbonerds writing a fantasy world based off of a hodgepodge of misinterpreted myths and pop history might have made something racist. It's not like they still use the discontinued "Oriental Adventures" template to explain how to make your own unique fantasy world or anything
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Dec 4, 2021 19:19
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datajugend posted:
His name means Spearwielder Deathskin (or Hell Skin if you prefer)
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Dec 4, 2021 19:21
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PharmerBoy posted:Wait, what? I need to know more on that one ra salvatore was getting divorced when he wrote the drizzt books so he made the drow society a man hating matriarchy that worships spiders and does freaky bondage
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Dec 4, 2021 19:23
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Shwoo posted:Did the Drow also get their dark skin from their curse, or is that just a thing for the Elder Scrolls dark elves? That’s the lovely thing I mentioned. For years the D&D lore was that the drow were originally dark elves who were only different from other elves by skin tone (black or purple as opposed to other elves being gray, gold, brown or white to name a few.) Then the dark elves committed horrible war crimes and were cursed by the elven gods with becoming drow, most notably the light blindness that drove them underground. But in the mid 2000s you get a trilogy of novels that ends up with an uncursed dark elf baby…with white skin. Then becoming an uncursed white skin drow was a game mechanic in 4e D&D. When 5e rewrote elven myth and history it said that the curse placed on the dark elves changed their skin colour. So D&D has ended up in this place where having black skin on drow is a curse and a sign of how evil they are, despite that not being the case in D&D for the first 20 years of popular products about the drow. Arivia has a new favorite as of 20:31 on Dec 4, 2021 |
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Dec 4, 2021 19:25
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