(Thread IKs:
ZShakespeare)
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Powershift posted:I'm betting half of them test positive before Christmas anyways. At least one is going to go to a bunch of gatherings knowing they're positive and trying to pretend they're not. Speaking of which: https://edmontonjournal.com/news/politics/energy-minister-sonya-savage-tests-positive-for-covid-19 There will be more, believe it.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:29
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flakeloaf posted:That might be reframing the facts a bit; he did know why: Yeah, that was me editorializing.
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Dec 19, 2021 02:36
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Totally fair ball, but I just wanna throw in something about me absolutely not trying to "well, actually..." any of this into being okay, because it's loving not, and there's no excuse for it to be this way anymore
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Dec 19, 2021 02:39
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Poodlebear posted:I have no doubt the institution of policing grinds these people’s souls into dust. Forcing people to seek out and confront the worst in humanity for 45 hours a week will do that to you. I'm sure many of them are vain but I don't think they spend that much time looking at mirrors. Your passive aggressive defense of cops here does speak volumes though, "confront the worst in humanity" implies there's an inherently adversarial relationship between cops and the communities they're supposed to serve, which frequently comes out in their attitudes towards the citizens who pay their salaries. Although cops might wanna present themselves as constantly battling pedophile nazis or whatever, 90% of their job is poo poo like this (from John Dolan's really good series about falling into poverty in Canada): quote:As for the car, an ancient Hyundai, it looked like poo poo and the driver’s window didn’t completely close, but it ran perfectly. As much as we loved it, we suspected that it wasn’t popular with the Canadians, because the cops had roughed me up over it. It didn’t look right; it was a 1985 Excel, it was an insult. They hated it. They pulled me over because our insurance was two weeks late and fined us $700, plus $140 for having the wrong address on my license and $120 for the tow. A thousand dollars, gone because we had belatedly learned a lesson in what cops are for: keeping poor people off the road. mila kunis fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 06:05
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Doctors, social workers, firemen, ambulance workers, child welfare.... all these people deal with horrific things, sometimes the very worst things of humanity, every day at work too. But people only hate cops with an extreme passion. There's a reason for that.
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Dec 19, 2021 06:40
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Another Bill posted:Doctors, social workers, firemen, ambulance workers, child welfare.... all these people deal with horrific things, sometimes the very worst things of humanity, every day at work too. But people only hate cops with an extreme passion. There's a reason for that. I think you will find people hate child and family services sometimes more than the cops. Child and family services are the first service many tribal council replace.
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Dec 19, 2021 07:08
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Cops have to reckon with the worst of humanity day in day out, other cops.
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Dec 19, 2021 08:11
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folytopo posted:I think you will find people hate child and family services sometimes more than the cops. Child and family services are the first service many tribal council replace. And, let's be honest: usually white people and racialized people hate CFS for different reasons. For white people it's usually some poo poo like "those bastards are interfering with my god-given right to beat my kids" and for racialized people it's usually "CFS will harass us for spurious complaints like the 'house being messy'." Like policing, it's a strongly racist institution and it has been for most of its history (look at the number of First Nations children in care) and different groups will have massively different experiences.
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Dec 19, 2021 14:17
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mila kunis posted:
By worst of humanity, I don’t mean the worst human beings, I mean the worst parts of all of us - the domestic disputes, the accidents, the conflicts and the breakdowns. These things happen to all of us, hopefully not every day. But for the individuals working as front line police, reality is different. You don’t think that would change you, change your perspective on the world? Really think about what this does to people, only seeing the mistakes, only seeing the wrong, and the pattern that emerges. Imagine the heuristics that would develop out from under your subconscious. It would make all but the strongest of us into stone cold cynics. Of course it shouldn’t be us vs them, but it is. We contribute to this “us vs them” thing, we are part of this society. Cops know we hate them, cops know we want to hurt them, cops read too. Cops will protect their own, because of course they will. Who the gently caress else stands up for cops, aside from Poodlebear on the somethingawful forums? So a culture of silence develops, protect your own, give your people the benefit of the doubt. I mean, Steve wouldn’t have hurt that guy on purpose, he was just under a lot of stress and trying to get the situation under control. Steve’s a good guy, we all know Steve. And anyway, I wasn’t there. And anyway, I’ve had my moments too. And anyway, they really do hate us. The same sort of camaraderie develops in every other public facing workplace. Except here it’s violent, except here it’s ugly, and if you don’t fall in line as a cop, you’ll have a tough time, you won’t be a cop for long. The system weeds you out, for your own good. All we are left with is the numb and unthinking. Cops shouldn’t be held accountable to laws in the same way citizens are because they are asked to do things citizens don’t do. They are asked to go into situations that are ugly as a rule, with a high chance of things going wrong as a baseline, or else they would not be called. They need to make decisions in that context, and they’ll often make mistakes, and they’ll often find themselves in no win scenarios. We need to allow them some mechanism to make mistakes, because otherwise the work would be impossible to do. We give every other occupation this human allowance, we don’t call surgeons murderers if they cut the wrong vein, because we understand that human beings can fail. And they will fail as a rule, no matter what we do. The truth is, they don’t want to fail either. Throwing out all the evil cops and only hiring good cops is a nonsensical solution to this problem, because there are no evil or good cops, their failure is also our failure. By all means, let’s continue to improve the system that holds them accountable for mistakes. But please recognize that our criminal justice system has adapted itself to survive in the environment of economic and social policies that allow poverty and desperation to continue to exist in the streets all around you, as well as the media that glorifies a Cops vs everyone perspective that you amplify. If you genuinely want systemic change, you must understand the whole system. And at least for now, we unfortunately need these government controlled monopolies of violence, unless we want private militias controlled by profit seeking interests. We all know how that road ends.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:32
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Source your incredibly stupid quotes.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:41
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You are an idiot. E: Directed at Poodlebear, of course.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:41
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Poodlebear posted:Cops shouldn’t be held accountable to laws in the same way citizens are because they are asked to do things citizens don’t do. They are also sanctioned by the state to employ violence to enforce their mandate. They need to be held accountable for their use of force, specifically because they are expected to use it in the course of their duties. If their training is bad (it is) then we need to address the training, certainly. But presumably we're not training police to bash people's heads in with metal pipes because they're suspected of having committed a crime. SilverMike posted:You are an idiot. So is everyone engaging with them, so it's a fair cop
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Dec 19, 2021 17:43
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lol im not reading any of that bullshit
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Dec 19, 2021 17:47
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No, cops are not beaten down by us meanies, who just criticize them out of boredom. Police unions specifically target the entitled and violent in their hiring practices. This gets reflected in how they behave towards the people they're supposed to be protecting, and criticism of cops is based on that behavior. And no one who advocates for defunding the police says we should just fire and replace cops with new copa. They all, obviously, advocate for firing the cops and replacing them with social workers, mental health professionals, community organizers etc. Both of these points are of course stupidly obvious but absurdity of their arguments etc.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:57
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I already know I’m an idiot so you can’t hurt me
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Dec 19, 2021 17:58
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I could if I were a police officer.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:03
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I agree, cops shouldn't be held to the same standards as the rest of us; they should be held to much higher standards.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:05
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Argas posted:Cops have to reckon with the worst of humanity day in day out, other cops. It's this. A moving police car is a really good echo chamber.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:25
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I actually think Poodlebear had some good points tbh. He's not excusing bastard police behaviour, he's trying to point out how it gets to that pointflakeloaf posted:It's this. A moving police car is a really good echo chamber. This backs up what poodlebear is saying, the nature of the work, the complete lack of support and the type of training given tend to weed out all but a certain type of person - and if you aren't that type of person, you will become one. Or quit. Which leads to this quote:I mean, Steve wouldn’t have hurt that guy on purpose, he was just under a lot of stress and trying to get the situation under control. Steve’s a good guy, we all know Steve. And anyway, I wasn’t there. And anyway, I’ve had my moments too. And anyway, they really do hate us Even working in IT for 20 years, in bad workplaces the IT department develops a real 'us vs them' mentality, just without you know, guns and the power to detain / hurt people. I don't know what the solution is - tear down the PDs, stop trying to use cops as a multi-tool to patch up all the elements of a broken society, remove firearms, narrower scope of duties, use mental health professionals for some calls... I have no idea.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:58
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If only we had laws that are supposed to punish people for doing things like mudering and assaulting others alas
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Dec 19, 2021 19:02
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RBC posted:If only we had laws that are supposed to punish people for doing things like mudering and assaulting others Is there a PD anywhere in the country that has a civilian oversight board with actual teeth? It all seems to be different flavours of 'police investigating themselves' bullshit
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Dec 19, 2021 19:13
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Poodlebear posted:Cops shouldn’t be held accountable to laws in the same way citizens are because they are asked to do things citizens don’t do. Correct. They should be held to a far higher standard given the power and authority they wield. Cops all too often get the benefit of the doubt - in legal situations a cops' word is usually taken at face value. I'll give some credit, yes, cops are fallible humans, and that's something that needs to be considered in all regards, but a lot of people feel like the more pressing matter is dealing with the fact that legal system treats that fallibility in a way that only protects cops, as opposed to recognizing that damage that fallibility can cause. Like, we want to relate to that fallibility? Sometimes I do slopping programming work cause I want to call the work done and clock out. There's ample history of cops doing sloppy work because they just want to collect their paycheque. Maybe cops should be afforded reasonable leeway in some places, but they sure as gently caress deserve all the scrutiny and oversight that should go with it. And yet, police unions exist to protect cops from basically any repercussions. In order to get thrown under the bus by a police union, it sure seems like you need to be wildly out of line. That or you try to hold other cops accountable. Oxyclean fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 20:34
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PT6A posted:And, let's be honest: usually white people and racialized people hate CFS for different reasons. For white people it's usually some poo poo like "those bastards are interfering with my god-given right to beat my kids" and for racialized people it's usually "CFS will harass us for spurious complaints like the 'house being messy'." c'mon dude, poor white people get brutalized just as bad, let's not lose sight of class when we're beating the racism drum
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Dec 19, 2021 21:09
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Eej posted:c'mon dude, poor white people get brutalized just as bad, let's not lose sight of class when we're beating the racism drum I think saying there's a class as well as a racial element is fair but to say poor whites get it "just as bad" as poor blacks is a statement that both requires a lot of backing up, and also shouldn't be something you should be saying off the cuff unless you have very extensive experience with both groups and their relationship with police.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:00
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I can only go off my own experience with those groups as a healthcare provider and that experience indicates that poverty and homelessness make you pretty prime targets for the state and writing off the white ones as "trash who beat their kids" isn't helping anyone.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:05
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Oxyclean posted:Correct. They should be held to a far higher standard given the power and authority they wield. This should be the beginning and the end of the conversation. If you don't want to have oversight and people second guessing your decisions then you should have to call a judge every time you want to ask someone a question let alone pull out a weapon. If you get special powers, you should have special oversight. End of discussion.
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Dec 19, 2021 22:27
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Poodlebear posted:Who the gently caress else stands up for cops, aside from Poodlebear on the somethingawful forums? Just you and 99% of politicians in a position to do anything about it and like 20% of the population who wish there were more dead minorities. Keep up the good fight!
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Dec 19, 2021 22:31
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Since everyone else is calling you out on all the other ridiculous stuff, I just want to point out that this is wrong.Poodlebear posted:We give every other occupation this human allowance, we don’t call surgeons murderers if they cut the wrong vein, because we understand that human beings can fail.
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Dec 20, 2021 00:20
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Alctel posted:This backs up what poodlebear is saying, the nature of the work, the complete lack of support ... what kind of support are you talking about here, and what do you mean by "the nature of the work"?
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Dec 20, 2021 00:56
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eXXon posted:... what kind of support are you talking about here, and what do you mean by "the nature of the work"? Same lack of support given to any first responder or social worker who have to deal with people who've been crushed between the gears of our society. Mental health supports, debriefing, group therapy etc. Different people deal with it in different ways, the paramedics I know cope by having the blackest sense of humour out of anyone I've ever met, a lot of police deal with it generally by shedding empathy and 'othering' the people they deal with, the one social worker I know goes to a lot of therapy, on her own dime 'the nature of the work' is what was said upthread, and it's the same for any first responder, seeing people having the worst day of their lives, at their lowest, or most vulnerable, or worst. Things like breaking into an old persons apartment after the next door neighbours reported a funny smell, or helping to find bits of a baby after a really nasty highway accident, or dealing with a person having a mental illness episode who is spitting at people and screaming at invisible people, or intervening on a domestic dispute where the husband is beating his wife, or finding a body on the street or in the water. That stuff fucks you up after a while and you either quit or become a desensitised dickhead with a gun and an attitude problem As I said, I don't know the solution. Maybe stop using the 'police' as a multi-tool stopgap, disband and replace them with specialised disciplines such as mental health specialists Alctel fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Dec 20, 2021 |
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Dec 20, 2021 02:22
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Peaceful Anarchy posted:
I’m glad we agree on this. So to prevent more failure from happening, we need to understand more about why failure happens. Why do cops fail? If an aircraft engineer fails to fuel an airplane appropriately, leading to disaster, of course we reprimand the engineer. Maybe they’re not charged for 257 murders, but that’s for a court to decide. Ultimately we want to figure out a way to prevent this from happening again. If it was laziness, human error, malice, whatever, we investigate. It’s not helpful to denigrate the engineer, assume they had bad intent, become suspicious of other engineers, generalize based on their race, etc. it’s understandable, it’s human, but it’s not going to lead to better outcomes. Especially if planes start going down again and again, wouldn’t you begin to wonder, could it be the fueling process itself, instead of the bad intent of many separate individuals? The Monarch posted:
I think sending the appropriate professional to the right situation is a great idea. So the idea is to fire the cops and send in non cops. It sounds simple enough. I think the main issue here is that it’s not always easy to evaluate the situation before somebody shows up. It’s like when you call in a fire, the ambulance shows up just in case. You might not need the ambulance, but if you do, it better be there. We can’t rely on the caller, under duress, to accurately judge what’s going on. If somebody calls in a mental health crisis, and you only send a mental health professional, it’s probably fine most of the time. But sometimes these situations get unexpectedly violent. Is the mental health professional equipped to deal with this? If not, there might be some delay to the intervention at best, and at worst it’s dangerous to the lives of the victim, the intervener and bystanders too. Would MHPs want to be sent into blind situations like this for 55k a year without benefits? I bet these guys start taking shortcuts pretty quick. Ok, so send in a cop with a MHP. Well, that’s how things worked in my personal experience in Toronto in 2015, and I’m sure this program has been expanded by now. That feels like we are going towards the right direction. It’s excellent that we are in a country rich enough to do this. Oxyclean posted:
It helps to relate to this fallibility because it might give us some intuitive ideas about how to reduce sloppy work. What would make you engaged and proud to do good work, and take personal responsibility for your work, even when nobody is watching? Even what’s it’s 3:30am on a Sunday? Even for a client/boss that spits in your face? In the past, we’ve tried to solve this problem with more pay, higher requirements, more training, more accountability. It can’t be all stick, that doesn’t work. Pleads posted:Just you and 99% of politicians in a position to do anything about it and like 20% of the population who wish there were more dead minorities. Keep up the good fight! I don’t know what politicians are or aren’t doing to be honest. Why do 99% of politicians fail to act on this issue, in your opinion? What do you want them to do? And to be clear, you believe that 20% of people in Canada want minorities dead?
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Dec 20, 2021 02:31
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Alctel posted:Same lack of support given to any first responder or social worker who have to deal with people who've been crushed between the gears of our society ... the one social worker I know goes to a lot of therapy, on her own dime ... I like to exercise and read 20 year old dead forums for my self care.
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Dec 20, 2021 02:40
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Lol at the idea cops are finding dead bodies everyday. It's not loving tv. Half of them spend their careers with a radar gun in one hand a donut in the other.
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Dec 20, 2021 02:46
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Dp
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Dec 20, 2021 02:46
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Capital Letdown posted:I like to exercise and read 20 year old dead forums for my self care. My social worker/therapist seemed to legitimately think BYOB was good for me when I discovered it, and shared that with her. "It's a message board just about being chill, and people are nice to each other." She seemed a little confused at first, but agreed I could use more chill.
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Dec 20, 2021 02:47
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I saw the whole thing. Maybe you need to lay off the radar gin.
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Dec 20, 2021 02:48
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I have carpark tunnel syndrome from dooms rolling COVID threads
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Dec 20, 2021 02:49
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B33rChiller posted:My social worker/therapist seemed to legitimately think BYOB was good for me when I discovered it, and shared that with her. "It's a message board just about being chill, and people are nice to each other." She seemed a little confused at first, but agreed I could use more chill. It might be true, but I'll be damned if it doesn't sound like treating ADHD with a fidget spinner.
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Dec 20, 2021 04:57
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https://covid19.ontariohealth.ca/booking-home They opened up bookings earlier than expected!
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Dec 20, 2021 06:12
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Eej posted:c'mon dude, poor white people get brutalized just as bad, let's not lose sight of class when we're beating the racism drum I object to "as bad" because I don't think it's true. Admittedly, poor people of any colour do get hosed over harder and more privileged people skate by, but it's heavily weighted against First Nations and other racialized families in practice. And I won't disparage all foster families, because there's a lot that obviously mean well and do a great job, but holy hell have I seen some things. It's not a good system, on the whole, it's abusive and there's far from enough oversight. If you're in the system and you get a good foster family, you're loving lucky. The house across the way took in a bunch of foster kids, and as soon as one was trouble... they'd be right the gently caress out and you wouldn't see them again.
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Dec 20, 2021 06:38
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