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As I understood it, the NO LGBT+ thing was very strictly in reference to LitRPGs, which tend to have a younger male readership that has very specific trope expectations (read: there is one dude with a harem of women) and will review bomb if they're not catered to.
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Jan 5, 2022 07:52
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Feels like the rule, then, should more be 'No LitRPGs'.
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Jan 5, 2022 07:54
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Chairchucker posted:Feels like the rule, then, should more be 'No LitRPGs'. The LitRPGs are what pulls in four to five figure Patreons, I'm afraid. Still, you can write smarter LitRPGs with diverse characters and still earn cash. I've just finished read This Used to be About Dungeons and that's about a group of Megazver fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 11:33
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Megazver posted:The LitRPGs are what pulls in four to five figure Patreons, I'm afraid. That's Alexander Wales. edit: This isn't intended as snark. But Wales is a very active guy, has a consistent work ethic since like 2017, and has Worth the Candle under his belt. And he's a nice dude on top of that. I'd say that $2k is a bit less than what he should be getting given that creative history. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 12:18
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Even with the edit, I don't really see your point.
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Jan 5, 2022 13:24
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HIJK posted:Awful. I dare say you’ve come to the right place!
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Jan 5, 2022 15:30
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:As I understood it, the NO LGBT+ thing was very strictly in reference to LitRPGs, which tend to have a younger male readership that has very specific trope expectations (read: there is one dude with a harem of women) and will review bomb if they're not catered to. Related: My current WIP is what I hope will be the first in a fantasy series and features a queer love triangle at its heart, with the main character (a young woman) ultimately deciding to risk the position of comfort she's striving for throughout the book for another lady. I know the trend in publishing has rapidly shifted towards Own Voices in recent years and I have friends in the industry who have griped to me about how fed up they are with straight cis white dudes writing gay stories—am I going to be hosed when I query? Or if I handle things well enough and hire sensitivity readers first (which I plan on doing anyways) should I be okay?
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Jan 5, 2022 15:47
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rohan posted:I’m wondering if you should focus even less on the school aspect than you are now? “She barely graduates” is a bit of whiplash in the second para as it’s being set up as a magic school blurb before that’s ripped away from us. Loving these edits! I've been so caught up with setting the scene that I've kept trying to put more detail in there than it really needs. rohan posted:The one thing I think your new blurb’s missing is a hint of conflict Thanks to my decision to include messy adulting stuff, there's actually a bucket load of conflict in the book, but trying to summarize it in a blurb is hell. I prob need to do something to telegraph the sex and violence content in the blurb (which come in the later chapters of the book and won't necessarily be apparent from the sample chapters), before I get terrible 1-star reviews on Amazon from people who are like "I bought this book for my 13 year old kid! And to my horror, there are explicit things in there! TERRIBLE" Let me take this away and keep working on it. Thanks again thread for the amazing feedback!
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Jan 5, 2022 18:54
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HIJK posted:https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/literary-fanfic This is an interesting article about how fanfiction is bleeding into literary fiction. Excerpt: Fanfic: The origin of short sentences, italics, repetition, and the present tense.
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Jan 5, 2022 19:43
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rohan posted:Also, “fantasy Shark Tank meets the Apprentice cage match” is a pretty compelling hook that I’m not really getting from the blurb as written, unfortunately. Alright, here's take 4: quote:Rahelu is a natural at the resonance disciplines: the ability to manipulate emotional echoes to discern truth from lies, conjure the past or even foretell the future. Her parents sold everything and upended their life for her to train at the Guild—but she’s still a foreign fisher brat, despised by the other wealthier, more privileged trainees. I think I'm getting closer to hitting all the right vibes?
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Jan 5, 2022 20:39
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:I dare say you’ve come to the right place! finger guns ayyyyyy ultrachrist posted:Fanfic: The origin of short sentences, italics, repetition, and the present tense. Lol, yeah I see what you mean otoh I think he really just means that fanfic encourages a more immediate and maybe "intuitive" writing style and that it's bleeding into regular fiction writing.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:39
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change my name posted:Related: My current WIP is what I hope will be the first in a fantasy series and features a queer love triangle at its heart, with the main character (a young woman) ultimately deciding to risk the position of comfort she's striving for throughout the book for another lady. I know the trend in publishing has rapidly shifted towards Own Voices in recent years and I have friends in the industry who have griped to me about how fed up they are with straight cis white dudes writing gay stories—am I going to be hosed when I query? You're hosed. But you'll be hosed no matter what, the SFF community is just pathologically broken. Do not engage with anyone, hide and keep to yourself.
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Jan 5, 2022 20:50
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General Battuta posted:You're hosed. But you'll be hosed no matter what, the SFF community is just pathologically broken. Also stay off twitter. Publishers seem to have this stupid idea that all their authors need to have a *~social media presence~* to do the marketing job for them, but twitter especially is a vile hate pit that does authors no service but get them targeted by angry mobs should they ever slip up in any way that gets noticed Or if you must, use a pen name and make your online identity a bit, like Chuck Tingle. He’s knows his social media poo poo
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Jan 5, 2022 22:06
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change my name posted:Related: My current WIP is what I hope will be the first in a fantasy series and features a queer love triangle at its heart, with the main character (a young woman) ultimately deciding to risk the position of comfort she's striving for throughout the book for another lady. I know the trend in publishing has rapidly shifted towards Own Voices in recent years and I have friends in the industry who have griped to me about how fed up they are with straight cis white dudes writing gay stories—am I going to be hosed when I query? Seconding Battuta: you're kinda hosed. My manuscript has three protagonists: asexual white male, gay white male, lesbian black female. One of these match me, two don't. Over the past few months, I've been filtered at the submission level when agents ask a question along the lines of 'If you're writing a perspective that doesn't match your identity, why is this necessary to your story?' and I've had a few email replies that basically say the same thing because I've outlined which one I am in my query letter. These may or may not be the same agents who talk up how they want to read SF/F with queer heroes and how they love representing minority voices.
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Jan 5, 2022 22:21
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Seconding Battuta: you're kinda hosed. My manuscript has three protagonists: asexual white male, gay white male, lesbian black female. One of these match me, two don't. Over the past few months, I've been filtered at the submission level when agents ask a question along the lines of 'If you're writing a perspective that doesn't match your identity, why is this necessary to your story?' and I've had a few email replies that basically say the same thing because I've outlined which one I am in my query letter. These may or may not be the same agents who talk up how they want to read SF/F with queer heroes and how they love representing minority voices. It’s really disheartening to me that you’re getting this kind of response. I understand the need for the Own Voices movement, but does that mean every character you write must match your own identity?
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Jan 5, 2022 22:30
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newts posted:It’s really disheartening to me that you’re getting this kind of response. I understand the need for the Own Voices movement, but does that mean every character you write must match your own identity? There are millions of talented writers out there, and millions more got time to write when COVID forced them to stay home. Your writing doesn't have to match your identity, but publishers have no incentive to take it when they can take one of the thousands of other stellar submissions from people whose identities and manuscripts match up. Nae fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 22:34
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newts posted:It’s really disheartening to me that you’re getting this kind of response. I understand the need for the Own Voices movement, but does that mean every character you write must match your own identity? Seconding, that sucks rear end and I'm sorry to hear it. My book takes place in a turn of the 20th century-like fantasy Germany that's on the brink of war after just recovering from one a decade ago, and the main character is captured and forced into an arranged marriage with a haughty rear end in a top hat who's heir to an important family. She sort-of-kind-of falls for him even though he's abrasive, self-centered, and doesn't think about her feelings when he speaks, but eventually she falls in love with another woman who's trying to help her escape (and who's black). But drat, that "why is this necessary to your story?" thing is so well worn at this point as a classic barrier to increasing diversity in books. Nae posted:There are millions of talented writers out there, and millions more got time to write when COVID forced them to stay home. Your writing doesn't have to match your identity, but publishers have no incentive to take it when they can take one of the thousands of other stellar submissions from people whose identities and manuscripts match up. Fair point too. change my name fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 22:39
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Nae posted:There are millions of talented writers out there, and millions more got time to write when COVID forced them to stay home. Your writing doesn't have to match your identity, but publishers have no incentive to take it when they can take one of the thousands of other stellar submissions from people whose identities and manuscripts match up. But in this case, one third of the manuscript does match up. Should all three protagonists be the same?
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Jan 5, 2022 22:41
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This is just making me want to drive by Royal Road with a "You're homophobic assholes" comment. Jesus.
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Jan 5, 2022 22:42
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Chairchucker posted:But in this case, one third of the manuscript does match up. Should all three protagonists be the same? Honestly I don't know what the answer is there beyond 'reduce the number of POVs to the number of unique perspectives you can support based on your lived experience.' That's a lovely answer but in an industry where like 50 SFF manuscripts get picked up by big imprints each year, it's probably the realistic one.
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Jan 5, 2022 22:50
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General Battuta posted:You're hosed. But you'll be hosed no matter what, the SFF community is just pathologically broken.
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Jan 5, 2022 22:51
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Turns out essentialism isn't just real but good business sense.
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Jan 5, 2022 22:55
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:My debut comes out in June and I have a Twitter Presence that I feel obligated to keep up for the sake of publicity and also this is absolutely true and I have been making GBS threads bricks about it for over a year. Hey, look on the bright side! You also have an SA account with a post history that can be scraped for every opinion on the industry you've ever shared. 
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Jan 5, 2022 22:56
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:My debut comes out in June and I have a Twitter Presence that I feel obligated to keep up for the sake of publicity and also this is absolutely true and I have been making GBS threads bricks about it for over a year. Run the script/service that deletes all of your tweets up until a certain period (the last year?) Also don't get discouraged when crazy people come after you either on social media or Goodreads, just ignore their likely unfounded complaints
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Jan 5, 2022 22:59
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Turns out essentialism isn't just real but good business sense. It's not even taking out of context any more, it's just lies. There is no standard of conduct that'll get the target off your back. change my name posted:Run the script/service that deletes all of your tweets up until a certain period (the last year?)
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Jan 5, 2022 23:01
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Nae posted:Honestly I don't know what the answer is there beyond 'reduce the number of POVs to the number of unique perspectives you can support based on your lived experience.' That's a lovely answer but in an industry where like 50 SFF manuscripts get picked up by big imprints each year, it's probably the realistic one. If applied retroactively this rule would erase every book and short story I've ever published 
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Jan 5, 2022 23:06
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General Battuta posted:If applied retroactively this rule would erase every book and short story I've ever published I think about this a lot whenever I think about how much I liked Baru Cormorant, believe me. EDIT: and hey, I would love to be wrong about all of this and what I'm saying in this thread feels deeply cynical, but I've had multiple agents tell me they won't take my work specifically because of the male protagonists, and I even had one get upset with me at a conference when I told her I wanted to write men (because I'm a woman every day and I write fantasy for a chance to see the world outside myself). That experience has really colored the way I look at this industry and each book I write hews closer and closer to my own identity out of necessity. Nae fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 23:10
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I strongly disagree that one shouldn't write outside their experience, but with a few core caveats: 1) somebody who has lived a particular experience is much more likely to understand and articulate it well, and that will benefit the work creatively and in terms of marketing c.f. publicity etc, authenticity sells 2) if you're writing a marginalised experience outside your own, you owe it to the people who do live that experience to do the research. Don't just consult with them, loving listen to them. Which might feel like splitting hairs but I really don't think it is: nobody should be barred from telling a particular story, the problem is telling it badly, and if it's outside your experience then you've got more work to do to make it good.
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Jan 5, 2022 23:18
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I hope it's not coming off like I agree with the idea that no one should write outside their experience. Ugh, I am really second guessing how I am coming off here, and I think I sound like an rear end in a top hat. I'm sorry if I misspoke anywhere, I'm gonna bow out.
Nae fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jan 5, 2022 |
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Jan 5, 2022 23:24
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It's like hey, I wrote this book while living in Kuala Lumpur, and KL rubbed off on it hugely, but I'm not Malaysian. Not even a little bit. This book got picked up by a Big 4 publisher. Because I did my research. It was a place I lived, the place where I landed my first publishing credits, a place where I still have a bunch of friends who are writers who I trust to call me out on my bullshit. Nobody has ever complained about the Asian elements in the setting. The problem isn't a white guy writing Asian worlds, it's when white guys joke that their research was "eating pocky". Neither readers nor the industry have a problem if you do the loving legwork.
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Jan 5, 2022 23:24
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:I strongly disagree that one shouldn't write outside their experience, but with a few core caveats: I think those are really good rules to go by. On the flip side, how do you realize what you are writing is cringy, or could be translated the wrong way? There was an urban fantasy story I read where a guy gets powers, is lead astray by a loki-like character, and after committing murder and genocide, gets forgiven by the supernatural side. Then the character reveals they are asexual, and the book goes out of the way to show how they aren't a horrible monster that committed genoicde. These moments always give me pause, cause IMO it's not well done and feels award, but I hesitate from critiquing cause maybe that's the loving point? To feel awkward and out of place as the character. Edit: My question could also cover when you are critiquing something.
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Jan 5, 2022 23:29
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From my lived experience, heh, Kristoff is exactly the kind of odd dude who'd say something like that.
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Jan 5, 2022 23:35
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newts posted:It’s really disheartening to me that you’re getting this kind of response. I understand the need for the Own Voices movement, but does that mean every character you write must match your own identity? Nae posted:There are millions of talented writers out there, and millions more got time to write when COVID forced them to stay home. Your writing doesn't have to match your identity, but publishers have no incentive to take it when they can take one of the thousands of other stellar submissions from people whose identities and manuscripts match up. change my name posted:But drat, that "why is this necessary to your story?" thing is so well worn at this point as a classic barrier to increasing diversity in books. I can't understand the opposition to someone trying to write genuinely authentically from a POV that doesn't match their identity. We're already pigeonholed enough as it is by our identities in real life: reading is one way of trying to understand how someone else would see the world, so it makes sense that writing would be another. SurreptitiousMuffin posted:nobody should be barred from telling a particular story, the problem is telling it badly, and if it's outside your experience then you've got more work to do to make it good. This, basically. And with things like these, it's obvious who has done the legwork and who hasn't. There are a billion little subtleties that someone with the lived experience knows that someone without it doesn't, and while it's impossible to get all of them right, you need to at least get the most important ones right, or risk originating/perpetuating some very damaging narratives. DropTheAnvil posted:On the flip side, how do you realize what you are writing is cringy, or could be translated the wrong way? I'm not sure there's a clear line for this. I guess I would fall back to whether or not the work is making some sort of attempt at posing a deeper question, beyond just light entertainment value. Like I could forgive an author for getting things wrong while trying to explore what it means to be XYZ if they're making a genuine effort to tackle the issues. And because some of these issues are complex and nuanced, there isn't necessarily a definitive truth for some of these experiences either. I think as long as what's been represented as the character's experience does ring true to someone who has had that lived experience, then that's okay—the work is just representing that facet of the lived experience, not claiming that that is the ONLY version of the lived experience. It's also easy to ignore a work that is clearly using a cringy thing for lulz, because I'm not going to waste my time critiquing something where the author has zero intention to take serious critique. But for the stuff in the middle, I think I would start by at least raising the issue and seeing how the author responds. Sometimes they really don't know that it's an issue. And as long as they're open to learning and taking critique on board and addressing it, that's okay. What's not okay is when critique from a sensitivity perspective has been given, and the author blithely ignores it, after being warned of the damage the inaccurate representation can cause.
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Jan 6, 2022 02:11
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newts posted:It’s really disheartening to me that you’re getting this kind of response. I understand the need for the Own Voices movement, but does that mean every character you write must match your own identity? I hope not, I’m boring AF. SurreptitiousMuffin posted:My debut comes out in June and I have a Twitter Presence that I feel obligated to keep up for the sake of publicity and also this is absolutely true and I have been making GBS threads bricks about it for over a year. That’s a lot of bricks, maybe take up masonry on the side?
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Jan 6, 2022 02:57
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:That’s a lot of bricks, maybe take up masonry on the side?
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Jan 6, 2022 03:04
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Did someone say web serials? Red mist is doing just fine thank you. Not making money but getting them views.
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Jan 7, 2022 01:19
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Jan 7, 2022 03:05
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 Show of hands: Good line or not
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Jan 9, 2022 00:08
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Bad line but it deserves to stay in.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:17
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Junpei posted:
If it's consistent with the voice of the character and the tone of the scene, sure, it's good enough. If it's not, then it's not. Hard to tell in a vacuum.
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Jan 9, 2022 01:27
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