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Yeah, depending on the specific game's esports setup, a lot of esports players make a significant share of their money through prize takes, so if you cancel a big money tournament because the audience are a bunch of howling idiot morons you're seriously cutting into the players' potential bottom lines. That and it's really likely to backfire - if you cancel an event because the audience keeps yelling misogynistic poo poo at a female player, the fan reaction is probably going to be to blame the woman for ruining everything, not for the fans to police each other.
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Jan 8, 2022 11:42
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Didn't one football game get outright shut down because of the audience behaving atrociously? Kanos posted:Yeah, depending on the specific game's esports setup, a lot of esports players make a significant share of their money through prize takes, so if you cancel a big money tournament because the audience are a bunch of howling idiot morons you're seriously cutting into the players' potential bottom lines. That said, if you attempted this, you should definitely also hire bodyguards for the participants.
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Jan 8, 2022 12:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The 2008 qualifying match between Denmark and Sweden had a Danish fan attack the referee in the last minute of the match, when it was a 3-3. The match was abandoned, and eventually changed into a 3-0 win for Sweden. A bit harder perhaps to implement "fair" collective punishment in the gaming scene though, since fans aren't gonna be as clearly associated with any given team /player. To add to that, UEFA recently imposed a one-match stadium ban (game can take place but no fans allowed) after the anarchy that was the 2020 finals. Which was a slap on the wrist, but I appreciate that it at least targeted the specific people who were causing issues. Which in this case was thousands of hooligans breaking into the stadium illegally. The Danes were peripherally involved again, as in the previous match, English fans tried to blind the Danish goalkeeper with laser pointers. Unfortunately its a lot harder to police people's behaviour online. I think the world would be a better place if internet assholes lost their online privileges for a while.
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Jan 8, 2022 12:37
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, I feel like it'd be more effective to pause the event and make a big show out of banning the worst offenders.
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Jan 8, 2022 12:50
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I know I just said it's hard to police behaviour online, but forcing platforms like Twitch or Facebook to moderate their users more strictly is something that should be brought up every time harassment occurs online. It's not an impossibly onerous task to do more than the bare minimum, and if government regulation is what it takes, then it'll have to do. E: Not saying this will happen overnight, but GDPR demonstrates that governments can enforce consumer rights on online platforms if they want to.
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Jan 8, 2022 13:50
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i think the last thing i want is the government taking control of what you can say on twitter and facebook, fursonally. considering how many state and national governments are hostile to gay people, abortions, trans people, gay trans abortions, poor people, poor gay trans abortions, telling sitting us senators to eat your farts, etc. like between random twitter lords saying sexist slurs at any woman who touches a video game controller and government regulations, i would take the former a thousand times over.
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Jan 8, 2022 13:52
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Which is a totally valid opinion. Your only contribution to this conversation is going to be shrugging your shoulders and saying it can't be fixed though  Unless there is something I'm missing.E: I'll walk it back a bit. Its also an important opinion because in any scenario where such regulation was enacted, I think we would need folks like you vocally objecting to overreach. Checks and balances are cool and good. Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 13:53
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Endorph posted:banning them how? from what? it takes like 20 seconds to get back into a stream chat and its not like you can get twitter or facebook to ban them. and even if you could, they can just make a new one of those, too.
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Jan 8, 2022 14:03
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I think the better solution is antitrust enforcement. Let users and content creators have more platform choices, with interoperability. Then users can move to platforms with better moderation, without getting into sticky government speech issues.
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Jan 8, 2022 14:05
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Endorph posted:banning them how? from what? it takes like 20 seconds to get back into a stream chat and its not like you can get twitter or facebook to ban them. and even if you could, they can just make a new one of those, too. Maybe this is just old man talk on my end but you could probably do a lot of good very quickly by just not having a zero-friction official stream chat associated with the event so people can vomit their bile directly into the same space everyone else watching the stream is looking at. Make people jump through hoops to join the chat. Get enough details so if they do something vile the consequences can bite on them. Maybe even have a moderator choosing high-quality comments to go on the stream by hand, rather than real-time chat. Not everything needs real-time chat and incorporating it into everything on a knee-jerk basis might actually be a bad idea.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:27
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Warthur posted:Does an esports event really need to have a stream with an associated chat where there's zero friction to get on the chat? It feels like if you are genuinely interested in the event, you will want to primarily watch the event and won't want to be constantly distracted by the chat. If people are determined to natter incessantly during the event they can just set up their own side channel and talk with their friends. People love chatting in the stream, much like SA has had really active threads for sports events and annually dumping on E3. I'm not into chatting with total internet strangers either, but bullshitting during the boring parts and 'oohing' together when something big happens is kinda part of the experience. AGDQ is starting again tomorrow, if you're curious to see what its like. Granted, its a week of charity speedruns, not esports, but they normally do a really good job of keeping chat a friendly space for everybody involved. E: some kinda log-in or registration unique to the events like you suggested is probably a good idea tho
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Jan 8, 2022 17:03
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wait are there actual official esports chat channels for the stream???
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Jan 8, 2022 18:37
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Fruits of the sea posted:People love chatting in the stream, much like SA has had really active threads for sports events and annually dumping on E3. I'm not into chatting with total internet strangers either, but bullshitting during the boring parts and 'oohing' together when something big happens is kinda part of the experience.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:38
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i dont think its really up to them to have or not have a chat, its not like twitch lets you turn it off.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:55
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Can't you turn on members only chat, achieving the same role as  here?
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Jan 8, 2022 20:30
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Terrible Opinions posted:Can't you turn on members only chat, achieving the same role as You can put a Twitch chat in subs only I believe, yes And, despite what SA shows, people aren't as willing to keep throwing money away just to get a new account to be a shithead from
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Jan 8, 2022 22:05
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Moola posted:wait are there actual official esports chat channels for the stream??? Yeah, but in my experience, the Twitch chats are always unreadable meme spams. The sub-only option to limit chats is there, but I've never seen a tournament actually do it. If a tournament is also co-streamed on Youtube it's usually a little better just because it's not as popular of a streaming platform as Twitch, but that poo poo still sucks. With Valve stuff specifically, they've integrated a stream feed into the Steam friends client so you can set up your own watch parties using the chat client there.
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Jan 8, 2022 22:59
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Twitch also has a verified chat only mode where only folks that add a real phone number to it can chat.
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Jan 8, 2022 23:21
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Fruits of the sea posted:English fans tried to blind the Danish goalkeeper with laser pointers. Jesus loving Christ, football fans are the worst. Trying to permanently blind someone over a stupid-rear end soccer game.
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Jan 9, 2022 06:34
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I legitimately don’t get what the appeal of integrated stream chat even is for high-profile events. Like, it’s extremely quick for it to basically be illegible because of so many people speaking at the exact same time.
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Jan 9, 2022 07:41
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Regalingualius posted:I legitimately don’t get what the appeal of integrated stream chat even is for high-profile events. Like, it’s extremely quick for it to basically be illegible because of so many people speaking at the exact same time. It's pretty much the exact same thing as people yelling in a stadium.
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Jan 9, 2022 07:57
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~engagement~
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Jan 9, 2022 08:15
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Regalingualius posted:I legitimately don’t get what the appeal of integrated stream chat even is for high-profile events. Like, it’s extremely quick for it to basically be illegible because of so many people speaking at the exact same time. I’ve been doing a fair amount of user research and interviews into this kind of stuff for work, and people like to feel like they are a part of the event. This interaction (just spamming in a never-ceasing wall of text) seems really weird to some, but for the people it hits with (which is a LOT of people) it REALLY hits. They feel like they’re engaging in something live and enjoy it. It’s less about having a meaningful conversation and more about shouting as your team scores a goal and high-fiving the strangers around you.
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Jan 9, 2022 08:59
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In that case they should limit it to emoticons only or something so people can't say slurs.
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Jan 9, 2022 10:44
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people will find a way to be racist even with just emotes. twitch has already tried emote only stuff and proved this. if theres a monkey, spam it when theres a black guy on screen. if they get rid of that, spam a chicken. if they get rid of that, find an emote of a black guy making a funny looking face. if they get rid of that, etc, etc.
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Jan 9, 2022 11:08
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I think twitch chat is fun when it's not full of bigots, but that's a big "if". When everyone is pogging out of their gourd over some poo poo that happened, it can make an exciting thing feel extra exciting. I think GDQ is actually a very good example of things done right. I'm friends with a couple people who are on GDQ staff either officially or a volunteer basis. Here's some of the things they've done: 1. Tighter moderation. No more "BE COOL CHAT (emote of a sweating pepe)" every time a trans woman is onscreen, as used to be a thing a few years ago. No spamming a black guy emote whenever a black person is onscreen. No wink-wink-nudge bigotry where it's okay as long as you're not saying the word. No "just asking questions" messages about why you'd need to show someone's pronouns. 2. For AGDQ and SGDQ, they use sub-only chat. Events other than those that have a smaller viewer count are not sub-only. 3. Marginalized people on staff. Not just the gamers but the event organizers. 4. Regular smaller events that are meant to spotlight marginalized people in the community - GDQ has events like Frame Fatales, an all-women speedrunning showcase. 5. Regular messaging that scares away bigots by making it clear that it's a safe space. This, I think, is an important one. The same way bigots use dogwhistles to signal to each other that it's safe to infiltrate and they're /ourguy/ or whatever, sending regular messages of support for various things considered "leftist" like women's rights, trans rights, BLM, et cetera, can go a long way to discouraging them and making them feel unsafe. This doesn't mean occasionally your CEO quotes Maya Angelou in a press release - GDQ has regular breaks for tech setup and runs rotating splash screens. Some of them advertise these women-only events loudly, some talk about how trans rights are human rights, some talk about BLM. They also have trans flag emotes for use in chat.   Some of you might think they're going overboard. Some might argue it's politicizing a space unnecessarily. But here's the thing: it works. GDQ chat is by and large WAY less of a cesspool than it used to be. It used to be unreadable garbage that I'd cringe heavily at and have to close any time a trans runner came onscreen. The secret truly seems to be aggressive, proactive choices in moderation and messaging that make it clear that a certain type of beliefs are not going to be tolerated. Can these solutions be 1:1 implemented onto a game tournament? I don't know! I don't have expertise in those fields. But while we're on the topic I thought I'd share what seems to have worked. 
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Jan 9, 2022 12:01
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Endorph posted:people will find a way to be racist even with just emotes. twitch has already tried emote only stuff and proved this. if theres a monkey, spam it when theres a black guy on screen. if they get rid of that, spam a chicken. if they get rid of that, find an emote of a black guy making a funny looking face. if they get rid of that, etc, etc. Yeah, there's actually an ongoing controversy still sputtering on right this instant about racist shitheads on Twitch spamming the TriHard emote(which is simply an emote of black streamer Trihex smiling) whenever any black person appears on a stream for any reason. It's possible to moderate and wrangle large twitch chats in various ways and be relatively successful, but it generally requires an experienced mod team and use of stuff like subscriber or verified only chat functions, which are usually disliked because people see them as dampening enthusiasm. AGDQ tried sub-only chat and people were literally donating money to "free the plebes". It's also much harder to keep a handle on a chat if it's not an established community with a particular vibe and expectations of behavior - it's nearly impossible to effectively moderate a once-a-year popup stream like E3 or the VGAs or something.
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Jan 9, 2022 12:55
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Tiny Myers posted:5. Regular messaging that scares away bigots by making it clear that it's a safe space. This, I think, is an important one. This one in particularly is absolutely critical. I spent a lot of COVID streaming fighting game tournaments and I tried to take a lot from how GDQ handles their stuff. Making crystal clear that bigots were unwelcome, and then shooting them on sight, was the only way to get a foothold that they didn't immediately swarm. We had the occasional problem with bigot raids (and a lot of drive-by "why are there pronouns on the commentator screen???" assholes; mods didn't at first feel comfortable just decking those comments on sight, but I did 'cause I ran the thing and the mods quickly ran with it) but the consistent platforming of marginalized folks, and that something like 75% of the mods were LGBT folks, kept things under wraps. But that was like an 80-120 average stream; what GDQ does is the most comprehensively thoughtful approach any larger event takes, and there's a lot to learn from them. Or you can be Namco and have anti-trans bigots in your promo materials on Twitter, or you can be Capcom and be all about the wife-beater life. Apparently that works too.
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Jan 9, 2022 17:29
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Clarste posted:In that case they should limit it to emoticons only or something so people can't say slurs. Yeah, totally agree. But like people above have said, that’s only the first step in a solution because lovely people will still find ways to turn innocuous emotes into online bullying.
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Jan 9, 2022 19:42
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I mean, I went to look up the ok hand emoji image to make a snark post about how right wingers would never subvert an existing and established simple gesture for their bullshit only for this to be one of the first results. https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-49837898 Guess it's official now.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:00
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But the US anti-hate group says the "overwhelming usage" of the hand gesture today is still to show approval or that someone is OK. Therefore "particular care must be taken not to jump to conclusions about the intent behind someone who has used the gesture".
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Jan 9, 2022 20:02
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Tiny Myers posted:5. Regular messaging that scares away bigots by making it clear that it's a safe space. This, I think, is an important one. I just want to point out how important this is outside of online gaming. I used to work for a megacorp and we were trying to figure out how to get better implementation of our inclusion and diversity initiatives within the organization. There is a lot of research on messaging and repetition. We used that to shape internal comms and executive messaging to change the organizational culture. It took some time, but we got the needle moving and had success.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:04
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Stux posted:But the US anti-hate group says the "overwhelming usage" of the hand gesture today is still to show approval or that someone is OK. The ambiguity is how these groups operate in public and make use of things like emojis that weren't made for that purpose in the first place.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:13
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it used to make people look stupid and paranoid and should be ignored
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Jan 9, 2022 20:27
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yook posted:I mean, I went to look up the ok hand emoji image to make a snark post about how right wingers would never subvert an existing and established simple gesture for their bullshit only for this to be one of the first results. What the gently caress is that gesture? Never seen that before, guess you anglospherites need to be a bit more careful before you condemn a gesture to shitbin of hatred.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:35
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Smithwick posted:I just want to point out how important this is outside of online gaming. I used to work for a megacorp and we were trying to figure out how to get better implementation of our inclusion and diversity initiatives within the organization. There is a lot of research on messaging and repetition. We used that to shape internal comms and executive messaging to change the organizational culture. It took some time, but we got the needle moving and had success. It's one of the things I actually like about Amazon (If I have to work there, I better find stuff I like. Such as: I found a job where I sit there and openly read books for half my shift at $18.35/hour) Of course I'm fully aware Amazon did it originally (and still) because the more inclusive a workspace is the more it slows workers organizing (because the assholes wanna poo poo on the "Other", not strike with them) but it gives me warm fuzzies when I train someone who's openly gay/trans and actually make them feel safe at work.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:58
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RagnarokZ posted:What the gently caress is that gesture? Never seen that before, guess you anglospherites need to be a bit more careful before you condemn a gesture to shitbin of hatred. it's the signal that everything's ok when you're scuba diving (or a way to ask your diving partner if they're okay); it moved from there into a more broad sense
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Jan 9, 2022 21:22
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the ok hand signal is not remotely a hate symbol. literally every instance of people using it to signal racism is also accompanied by them doing something else way more racist, often in the same image. youre literally letting 4chan win if you think it is one.
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Jan 9, 2022 21:35
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Endorph posted:the ok hand signal is not remotely a hate symbol. literally every instance of people using it to signal racism is also accompanied by them doing something else way more racist, often in the same image. youre literally letting 4chan win if you think it is one. strong Finnish air force energy
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Jan 9, 2022 21:43
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Xakura posted:strong Finnish air force energy
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Jan 9, 2022 21:55
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